Yeah the whole thrust of mobil warfare is not lying on the range at a training base hitting a HUGE stationary target on a clear day with no wind. When a scenario like that occassionally occurs it is unusual to the extreme.
Huge? You ever fired at a four foot tall target from 600m? They are tiny, trust me.
I’m hard pushed to see a target at 600 meters, let alone hit it! Done it with a SUSAT though, still not easy. Then again I freely admit to being a poor shot, just dont get enough practice nowadays.
To talk of known distance ranges, as the US call them or gallery and ETR and the Brits refer to them, is to misunderstand infantry training. These ranges are used to teach basic shooting and to build confidence in the firer. They are also used to assess the firer’s ability to group and follow the marksmanship principles in a controlled environment that is safe. Once this initial training is over they move onto training the battle shot and individual fire and manoeuvre (IBSR individual battle shooting range) fire and manoeuvre followed by section fire and manoeuvre. These ranges are by design not known distance and part of the skill is to assess distance and engage targets at different ranges. See link below for very good shot of some of the types of ranges in the UK. (I do not believe that the one of Sennybridge are real, as it is not raining) Sennybridge is used by the School of Infantry for field firing. The ranges fall into two areas. Defence and attack. Defence tend to be longer range and firing from trenches and attack you are moving about.
http://www.offasdyke.surf3.net/gallery.htm
The numbers on the IBSR range are lane numbers not range, and each lane has each of the firing points on it so that you fire from a different firing position and then advance down range to select firing positions as the targets appear. This is the first part of your field firing package in recruit training. You then go onto ranges like X and Charlie in Walcop ( I did my recruit field firing at Walcop).
With the introduction of electric targets you can go to a field dig a hole (2x2x4) and drop in a target. The firers have know idea of its location until it appears. Judging distance is an infantry skill that is taught and practised. Sections would work out to 1000m the further out the greater the error, but under 600m over a 50m error was not acceptable. As an MFC I would need to be within 300m out to 5000m.
When the soldiers get to Bn they do platoon, company and Bn live fire manoeuvre exercises. The US army also uses ET targets as I have used them and the ranges they use.
Prior to and after the first war it was common for soldiers to shoot out to 1000m on gallery ranges. This is a hang over from the Boar war. Infantry soldiers had to shoot for their pay. Even as a young soldier if I scored marksman you got more money and had to prove it every year. After ww2 field firing came into life and training the battle shot started as a follow on from the battle school set up by each Div in the rear area for replacements and continuity training.
So to say that you cannot see or hit the enemy at 600m and over is bullocks, I have done it with an SLR as an individual and as part of a section (watch my tracer).
Does the army practice this, most certainly it does, look at the ranges in the link most of which I have used. Do we test the soldiers ability to hit targets at 600m, see section mach Bisley.
To say that judging distance at this range is difficult is true, but that is why we practice.
As part of the US armies infantry training they select sharpshooter in each squad to train to engage targets at 500m+.
If you train properly anything is possible.
“I’m hard pushed to see a target at 600 meters, let alone hit it!” That’s been my position all along.
Yeah, we hit at 500+ Yards or whatever ridiculous distances in training. At Pendleton one range is in a box canyon with vitrually no wind to interfere. When one is lying still, weather and lighting is perfect holding a breath then squeezing a single round off one CAN hit, as I said, the huge targets used for those ranges. Part of it sheer luck. We’ve all had good days on ranges.
But folks that’s not in the heat of combat! I find it curious that after reading an interview with a sniper who describes 600 meter shots using optics as a challenge and hit percentages going down as ranges increase, anybody still talks seriously about hitting with iron sights at the same range when in a combat enviromnment against mobil human targets and incoming fire is simply balmy. If anyone here has ever made such a shot against an enemy human in combat on more that a single lucky shot occassion then my hat’s off to you, Sgt. York…and get out the shovels.
Interesting this topic has certainly sprung into action
Anyway. Has anyone held the " light" Fifty cal. sniper rifle
Various Australian and British snipers and sniper rifles. All B/W photos are from the book “Out of Nowhere - A History of the Military Sniper” by Martin Pegler (Osprey Publishing, 2004). Color photos are from the book “The World War II Tommy - British Army Uniforms - European Theatre 1939-45 In Colour Photographs” by Martin Brayley & Richard Ingram (The Crowood Press,1998, pp88-89). All captions are quoted directly from the books.
Australian Sniper 1, WWII, Sniper P. Ennis, First Australian Infantry, about to go on patrol with No. 1 Mk. III* rifle and P18 scope. p204
Australian Sniper 2, Korea, 1951, Private B. Coffman of New South Wales checking the sight on his Lithgow No. 1 Mk. III*. He is wearing US pattern ammunition pouches and webbing. p273
Australian Sniper Rifle 1, An Australian Lithgow manufactured SMLE No. 1 Mk. III, with pattern 1918 scope on low mounts. This combination was to remain in service until the end of the Korean War. p222
British Sniper 1, WWII, Later in the war Britain began to catch up with Germany in producing practical camouflage clothing. Here Sergeant Furness wears the two-piece windproof jacket and trousers introduced in 1944. His scrim covered helmet is slung over his shoulder and he holds his No. 4 (T) rifle. p245
British Sniper 1c1, [WWII Re-enactor] This sniper wears the camouflage version of the windproof smock and trousers; in cut these followed the general pattern of all windproof clothing. The smock was a popular garment among such specialist troops, but was also on general issue towards the end of the war; being widely seen in photographs of infantry. (Denison smocks and captured German items of SS spotted and Wehrmacht splinter camouflage pattern also saw use among British troops.) While this windproof suit had an excellent camouflage base, individual snipers often made up their own 'ghillie" suits using hessian scrim, netting, or any other available fabrics that would help blend in with their environment. Camouflage face veils - 3ft x 3ft 6in nets, dyed in a grass green and brown pattern -were a general issue item. They were intended for spreading over the helmet, shoulders and pack to break up the outline agaimt observation from the air or ground. Many soldiers wore them as scarfs in the opened neck of the BD blouse.
British Sniper 1c2, [WWII Re-enactor] The No. 4 Mk. I* (T). Snipers’ rifles were selected weapons, chosen for their tighter than average grouping; a cheek piece was added to the butt and the receiver was modified to take the No. 32 telescopic sight, graduated to 1,000 yards. The US M1907 leather sling was standard issue for this weapon, since it made a better adjustable arm brace than the British web sling. Snipers were deployed to dominate the ground between the lines during the brief periods of fairly static confrontation.
British Sniper 2, WWII, British Private Francis Miller, posing with his Enfield Rifle. As the sole survivor of his sniper section, he was universally known as ‘Borrowed Time’. p22
British Sniper 3, WWII, A British sniper with No. 4 (T) in Italy. He has adopted the long Bren-gun webbing sling in preference to the issue leather pattern. p229
British Sniper 4, WWII, House-to-house fighting became a matter of routine in the days following D-Day. A British sniper takes refuge in a loft and watches for movement. Snipers wore what suited them and this man carries the practical and large Bren-gun magazine pouches instead of small ammunition pouches, as well as carrying a pistol on his hip. p256
British Sniper 5, A British sniper in Aden in the mid-1960’s. He has the usual No. 4 (T) rifle, with webbing scope case, but carries his ammunition in a looped hunting belt around his waist. p277
British Sniper 6, Snipers’ course, England, April 1956. There is nothing to tell the casual observer that this is not a course from 1942, as little has altered in the way of clothing or equipment. p278
British Sniper 7, An SAS rifleman in Oman, c. 1974 with L42 rifle and M79 grenade launcher on his back. All are trained in basic sniping techniques but only a few are fully accredited snipers. p282
British Sniper Rifle 1, The Enfield No. 4 Mk. I (T) rifle and No. 32 Mk. I scope. Solidly built, many believed it to be the best sniping rifle available during the war, on any side. p228
British Sniper Rifle 2, An early variant of the 7.62 mm Enfield L42 rifle. Basically a pared-down No. 4 (T) with heavier barrel, it still used the No. 32 scope. p281
Yes, and there’s absolutely feck all light about it.
Yes, and there’s absolutely feck all light about it.[/quote]
Seconded !
While it is fun to shoot and undoubtably has useful applications, it is not something you want issued without a veh.
The White Death - Finland’s World’s Greatest Sniper Simo Häyhä:
Brief Background On Simo Häyhä
Simo Häyhä was born in 1906 or 1905 (there seems to be two dates of his birth depending on the reference materials) in Rautajärvi, Finland. The town was in the shadow of the Soviet Union and as was the case with many border areas, the home of Mr. Häyhä was lost to the Soviets in the spoils of the Winter War. Like many of the towns and villages of this region the area was rural,and Mr. Häyhä was what people here in the US would call an outdoorsman spending much of his time outside letting his skills sharpen.
In 1925 Mr. Häyhä joined the Finnish Army for his one year of mandatory service. He must have been suited well for the Army in some regards as when he left he had achieved the rank of corporal. Later Simo Häyhä joined the Suojelskunta (Finnish Civil Guard) serving in his home district. The Civil Guard is a difficult organization to explain to those in America but putting the Civil Guard in US terms it is much like a very well trained National Guard Unit. Even this description is far from perfect but should suffice for the purposes of this article.
Simo Häyhä was called into action during the Winter War with his service under the 6th Company of JR 34 on the Kollaa River. The Finnish stand at Kollaa is often referred to as “The miracle of Kollaa,” as the Finnish action here was most heroic. The Finnish forces in the region were under the command of Major General Uiluo Tuompo and they faced the 9th and 14th Soviet Armies. At one point the Finns at Kollaa were facing 12 divisions, some 160,000 men. The Red Army losses in this arena were staggering as the brave Finns took their toll on the communist invaders. There have been those that called the Finnish defense of this key region “fanatical”, and it was in the Kollaa area were the famous battle of “Killer Hill” took place with 32 Finns battling 4,000 Soviet soldiers. These were the hunting grounds of Simo Häyhä and it should be noted that even against massive odds the Kollaa positions were still in Finnish hands at the end of the war (March 1940).
Many remember Simo Häyhä only as using the Mosin Nagant M28 rifle with open sights and only credit his high kill total to his role as a sniper; however, this is not entirely correct as Häyhä was also an expert with the Suomi K31 SMG and a large number of the Soviets that he felled were from his K31. Above are examples of the tools of Simo Häyhä in his hunts in Kollaa.
Mr. Häyhä was credited with over 500 kills in his service during the Winter War with his service cut short as he was wounded on 3-6-40 by a Soviet sniper. Simo was shot in the face with what turned out to be an exploding bullet and he was taken out of action due to these wounds. The total time that Simo Häyhä served in the Winter War was 100 days with about 500 kills credited to him. His record is truly remarkable and is long since remembered in the nation of Finland.
Here are some of the Red Army’s sniper rifles
http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper%20section/sniperphotos1.asp
Sweet pics mate!
Happy new year and all that crap! :lol: :lol: Here some new pictures that i found while i was listeing to myself think!!! enjoy.
The Brits regularly shoot out to 600 to 800 meters and further, often on ranges where the targetry can pop up anywhere, or where the shooter is moving from position to position and possibly with overhead fire.
Remembering that we have optics on some of our weapons. But still with iron sights it is possible for soldiers to shoot over 300m.
I think this is mainly a doctrine thing in the different armies. Some armies rely on weight of fire to suppress enemies, others perfer a few aimed shots that put the oppisition out of action.
The purpose of any shooting is to kill the enemy. Regardless of range, the shooter aims to kill. The purpose is never to scare them. As I have said before, ammunition is carried, it is finite and should not be wasted on impossible or non-important shots.
If the enemy is that far away you can’t target them, they may not have seen you, or you may not know their full strength. It may be better to seek alternate methods or just flag it up to higher formation. Or if you are in a postion to take them on, move in to a better position and snap ambush.
As ranges increase all shooters will experience a degradation in their shooting, wrt on the range. This is normal and due to things such as fatigue, fear, brown courage and the targets being less static than on the range.
Thanks 1000ydstare! That is a good peice of information. Keep em coming! 8)
Yes nice post :lol:
In WW2 Snipers littered destroyed areas right. Some movies show that snipers have taken a position in high towers. But there is one problem. Most tall towers and other high buildings were destroyed so that a sniper couldn’t take a position there…damn hollywood!
Tall bldgs and tees are a favourite psn of snipers in Hollywood.
Unfortunately neither allow many possibilities for a successful exfil once the tgt has been taken, and towers especially draw the eye (and mor/arty) to them as they stick out like bulldog’s balls.
In the real world snipers tend not to adopt these psns although there are exceptions to this, for example in Iraq at present where the mission might be to take down terrorists that (as a result of Int) are known to be planning an action in a certain area.
Remember in situations such as this there is a large amount of Sp available to the unit concerned.
Exactley Great words mate!!
In vital situations on the battlefield snipers, their NCO’s or offices, could obtain accurate ranges from topographic maps. These maps were carried by foreward artillery observation teams, close air support coordinating teams, tactical officers, among others. I would guess that real, live sharpshooters would carry their own topo maps.