Should the atomic bombs have been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[Chevan]

@pdf27

Ummm… One of the fundamental principles of war is that for violence to be legal it must have a military effect. The nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki clearly did have a military effect - Japan surrendered, with Hirohito citing the nuclear bombings.

I can’t agree here.
At first- there vere no proved direct relation between the a-bombing and the Japanes surrending.
There were also the OTHER VERY IMPORTAINT reasons for that.
I/ve told about it above- the sudden attack of USSR ( the Japnese stuff were sure it was no soon as in mid 1946) .
Indeed the victims of a-bombing ( for the first days) were even LESS then the victims of firebombing of Tokio in 13 march of 1945 ( about 80 000).
So from the pure psihologicol side- the a-bombing look NOT as much terrible for the desperately Japane as the previouse firebombing raids.

The Holocaust had no military effect whatsoever.

MAy be you don’t know BUT EXACTLY this is the first reason of why the Holocaust deniers tell that the death-camps never exists;)
They simply asked - why was it need to kill the millions if the Nazy could use its slave hard work WITH MUCH more profit for the GErmany.
In fact among the jews there were a lot of specialists of the specific fields- We know a much of examples when Germans forcesd the jews work for them - but they were not killed till the end of war.

This isn’t to say that the nuclear bombings were morally OK (I’m deeply ambivalent about that one, and thankful we live in a world where they are no longer likely to happen) but rather they have an arguable case for legality. The Nazis did not have one for the Holocaust, and I think you’re wrong to compare the two even as a debating position.

The “BOMBERHOLOCAUST” - did ever hear of it?
This is that some of Germans right-wing parties try to express for the answer of continuous charges of Germany in the Holocaust.

Perhaps they have a point- how do you think.
As we know the Strategical bombing of German cities had the DIRECT AIM - destruction of cities and ONLY INDIRECT - the decrease of the military production.
Moreover as we know the some of Strategical attack had NO ANY MILLITARY EFFECT AT ALL but was the reason of death of the tenths of thousands civils peoples ( for instanse Dresden).
The overal victims of firebombing/a-bombing in Germany and in Japane were atl least 1 mln of peoples.

Cheers.

[Chevan]

@Rising_Sun

It irritates me that the Holocaust is consistently bound up with WWII in much history and almost all popular journalism and comment. It had nothing to do with it. It was an internal exercise. The war was an external one.

Ive already told you that the modern zionists use the Holocaust in its dirty political aims.

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

Thats true tankgeezer.
The dastardly Japanes attacked suddenly.
However do you ever know for instance the Germany attacked the USSR in 22 june of 1941 - without any declaration of war at all.
Simply in 4 hours of morning- the thousand of bombers dropped the bombs to the soviet airfields- the MOST of soviet pilots even have not a enought time to take fighters off.
Exactly this reason was the main that determined the lost of 60-80% of soviet aviation in FIRST hours of war.
This was INSOLENT and cinically military attack - BUT IT WS MILITARY attack.
This was DIRECT resaul of the lacks of soviet command - nobody explain it by the dastardly Germans soldiers and officers.
So the Japanes were even more “noble” than the Germans were.They’ve give the americans the WHOLE half of hour to take off the fighters;)
Indeed the lack of USA military command and intelligence was the reason of so terrible defeat in the Perl Harbour.
Like and Soviet command were responsible for the great loses of firs stage of war.
From the pure military sence both Japanes and Germans did RIGHT- the sudden attack was the resault of the military success.
Cheers.

True. Pearl Harbor was not meant to be a ‘surprise attack,’ but the Japanese incompetently forgot about timezones…

I was watching one of the hundreds of documentaries on Pearl Harbor, featuring interviews with the American and Japanese naval and military personnel involved in the battle. And it seemed to me that most of the Americans harbored no bitterness over what effectively was a surprise attack.

One old US sailor said something to the affect that: “my granddaddy was in the (American) Civil War under Stonewall Jackson, and he once told me that if you attack the Yankees --you don’t tell ‘em yer’ comin!’ You try to git’ there firstest’ with da’ mostest!’”

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

Ive already told you that the modern zionists use the Holocaust in its dirty political aims.

There’s actually a group of Hasidic Jews that agrees with you. They even partook in the Iranian Holocaust deniers conference (although they do not deny the Holocaust, they just believe that Israel should not use it as justification for immoral policies)…

[tankgeezer]

Sorry Chevan, there is no argument you may offer, no justification you may cite, no parallel event that may be held as cause to compare the Allied nuclear strike against the Japanese homeland with any manner or degree of terrorism. Frankly, I think you enjoy “stirring the pot”,and that destroys the credibility of your argument. - Raspenau -

[Chevan]

@tankgeezer

Sorry Chevan, there is no argument you may offer, no justification you may cite, no parallel event that may be held as cause to compare the Allied nuclear strike against the Japanese homeland with any manner or degree of terrorism.

Well i never pretended for the absolute true.
I just develop in this hread some points - that is opposite for the “official” version. Certainly i have to count up the any arguments, points and critics.
I just have to notice you that the “there is no any arguments” i might say it about any point in here.
Usially the people simply repeated what they have read before somewhere - and what is confortable for his views.
Howevere i think we have to develope own opinion - the resault of personal knowleges and brian activity.
So i want to tell you “the arguments” why the A-bombing was the terrorist attack.
When the Al-Qaeda,Bin Laden and any other madman killed the thousand of civilians for the political aims- he is certainly terrorist ( becouse who he could be in this way?).
The killing of civilians for the political aims - this is TERRORISM ON DEFENITION - there is nobody doubt.
Even if you killed the civilians for the “good aim” or to “save the lives of others” - does not matter.
So from this point the a-bomb attack of enemy cities is the tupical terrorist attack - the will to force the other state to accept the political conditions of other.
Moreover the tactic of bombing - the sudden attack of the sleeping city ( as it was tupical in Germany) or city without any AA-defence. Without any warning. This is the tupical TACTIC OF THE TERRORIST ATTACK.
That’s what i mean the firebombing/a-bombing as the terroristic.
BUT this is only my IMHO.
So there is no any problems if you do not think so;)

Frankly, I think you enjoy “stirring the pot”,and that destroys the credibility of your argument. - Raspenau -

Well honestly speaking i’m pretty tired of this thread.
But when any new member feel duty to repeat the “Official version of Washington of the bombing the Japane” in every his first post - this is not easy to tell him my argument.
However i try as carefully as i could.And this is not easy coz people think i simply “stirring the pot”
But this is not mean that my point is absolute - i just to present here the my critical point.

Cheers.

[Chevan]

@Nickdfresh

There’s actually a group of Hasidic Jews that agrees with you. They even partook in the Iranian Holocaust deniers conference (although they do not deny the Holocaust, they just believe that Israel should not use it as justification for immoral policies)…

Not just Israel Nick.
The Holocaus is very convenient for the avoid the any critic the pro-jewish organisation from the non-jews. Moreover this let the jewish organisations blame the any other peoples in “moral guilt”. Plus the Holocaus let to get the finantial profit ( the compensations and ets).

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

Not just Israel Nick.
The Holocaus is very convenient for the avoid the any critic the pro-jewish organisation from the non-jews. Moreover this let the jewish organisations blame the any other peoples in “moral guilt”. Plus the Holocaus let to get the finantial profit ( the compensations and ets).

Well, the Germans received ‘financial prophet’ via the free, slave labor…

[Chevan]

Agree, but right after the war the Gemrnas were force to pay contributions and compansations for the ALL states that they occuped- the USSR for instance received the great quantity of equipment, materials and even the wearpon ( Battleships and few other kind of warships).Those materials and ecuipmen were included in the first soviet five-year plan for the 1945-1950. That was before the appointed time executed due the Germans contributions.
Moreover the Germans POWs work enought hard in Gulag for the 1945-1953.
Certainly this could not compensate the henocide and total grabbing in the East in 1941-44 by the Gernmans, however i think there should be the limit of the post-war robbering the German people.
Germans PAYBACK was enought great in the state lavel IMO.
However in 1960yy- the jews have raised to the surface the question of the compansations for the PERSONAL property (accurate when Israel need the money for the war with arabs). And Germans was forced to pay a ADDITIONALLY a billions of marks PERSONALLY for them.
This is the tupical extortion IMO.

Cheers.

[tankgeezer]

Well Chevan, I guess we must disagree about it. But I do agree this thread is rather wornout, just going in circles.Enjoy your day, - Raspenau -

[Chevan]

@tankgeezer

Well Chevan, I guess we must disagree about it. But I do agree this thread is rather wornout, just going in circles.Enjoy your day, - Raspenau -

Thank you tankgeezer
How is your “20-mm” rifle - does it still work;)

[Chevan]

Japane finally refused the “official american justification of a-bombing”

http://www.rambler.ru/news/world/0/10904744.html
in every-year ceremony of memory of the victims of a-bombing in Hirosima the Japanese prime-minister Sinoe Abe apologized for the recent statement of the eks- minister of defense Fimio Kumy, who said that the bombardments of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the necessary measure for the curtailment of war.

Thus we could conclude the a-bombing indeed had no relation to the desicion of Japane capitulation - the japanes officials has confirmed it indirectly.

Cheers.

[pdf27]

@Chevan

Thus we could conclude the a-bombing indeed had no relation to the desicion of Japane capitulation - the japanes officials has confirmed it indirectly.

Well, we could conclude it - but I suspect the majority of people will conclude that the Japanese here are talking for domestic political consumption and that their statement has nothing to do with the reality of why they surrendered.

Remember when reading Japanese government statements about WW2 that postwar an indicted class-A war criminal (who never went to trial in the end) went on to become Prime Minister of Japan, that all the class-A war criminals hanged after the Tokyo war crimes trials have been enshrined at Yasukuni (thus making them officially war heroes) and that Japan refuses to apologise for or even acknowledge the war crimes it committed during the war, to the extent that they are airbrushed out of school textbooks.
Frankly I get the impression that the only regret the Japanese have about WW2 is that they lost!

As a thought experiment, try transposing Germany into the situation. As an equivalent to Yasukuni, imagine a big Lutheran cathedral in the centre of Berlin closely associated with the state, and containing a big memorial to Hitler, Eichmann, Himmler, etc. which is regularly visited by the German Chancellor. Imagine this German state has never admitted that the Holocaust took place, that it’s invasion of half of Europe was in any way unjustified, that Russian PoWs were mistreated or civilians in captured areas were mistreated. Then imagine that some suitably high-ranking Nazi (say Josef Goebbels or Joachim von Ribbentrop) was elected Chancellor in the 1950s.
Imagine then what your reaction to this state would be if it claimed that the Bombing raids on it during the war were an unjustified war crime, and that the Soviet troops capturing Berlin had nothing to do with it’s surrender.

Somehow, I suspect you would be rather sceptical of their claims. Remember, then, that Japan has done the equivalent of all these things and even maintains territorial claims on what it’s neighbours regard as their territory (and yes, these neighbours include Russia - Japan still claims the Kuril Islands).
Now, perhaps, you understand why I have so little sympathy for the Japanese…

[Chevan]

@pdf27

Well, we could conclude it - but I suspect the majority of people will conclude that the Japanese here are talking for domestic political consumption and that their statement has nothing to do with the reality of why they surrendered.

Agree, this for domestic aims.
Navertheless tell us honestly - was the our official version of bombing not domestic?
so why the Japanes have to admit our domestic version ( that we persistently suggested to them and we were very offended that they do not want this to assume - as made the Germans)?

Remember when reading Japanese government statements about WW2 that postwar an indicted class-A war criminal (who never went to trial in the end) went on to become Prime Minister of Japan, that all the class-A war criminals hanged after the Tokyo war crimes trials have been enshrined at Yasukuni (thus making them officially war heroes) and that Japan refuses to apologise for or even acknowledge the war crimes it committed during the war, to the extent that they are airbrushed out of school textbooks.
Frankly I get the impression that the only regret the Japanese have about WW2 is that they lost!
As a thought experiment, try transposing Germany into the situation. As an equivalent to Yasukuni, imagine a big Lutheran cathedral in the centre of Berlin closely associated with the state, and containing a big memorial to Hitler, Eichmann, Himmler, etc. which is regularly visited by the German Chancellor. Imagine this German state has never admitted that the Holocaust took place, that it’s invasion of half of Europe was in any way unjustified, that Russian PoWs were mistreated or civilians in captured areas were mistreated. Then imagine that some suitably high-ranking Nazi (say Josef Goebbels or Joachim von Ribbentrop) was elected Chancellor in the 1950s.
Imagine then what your reaction to this state would be if it claimed that the Bombing raids on it during the war were an unjustified war crime, and that the Soviet troops capturing Berlin had nothing to do with it’s surrender.

Imagine it?
Are you kidding?
Why need to imagine it , you yeasy could see it in … the Europe
In the newest member - Baltic states.

http://sava4.strana.de/latnacy.html
In Estonia was opened the monument to SS- men open in the place Likhula obelisk into the memory about the Estonians, who warred in World War II on the German side, it became popular tourist object in West Estonia. On this reported the county newspaper Lane Elu, after noting that tourists
convey to the monument by buses

Look here to see more:
http://photofile.ru/users/stopnazi/2444938/
You are welcome to the SS-toure in the Estonia, pdf.
The some of Estonian official person persons declared - the SS-volunatres fought for the INDEPENDENT ESTONIA and EUROPE from the boslshevism
So my friend as you the Japanes even could not a dreame about the Military revinionism like in Europe.
BTW do you know WHO did congratulate the Baltic gov with" progress of democraty"- the president Gourge Bush.
Not bad “progress” soon in such way we could observed the Hitler’s monuments in Baltic states- as the highest level of “democraty”.
Its’ strange ONLY ONE thing - why the Washington , who closed yeys in the rising of Baltic Neo-Fascists , at the same time CONVINCED the Japane for they simply refuse the cynical version of a-bombing?
How do you think?

Somehow, I suspect you would be rather sceptical of their claims. Remember, then, that Japan has done the equivalent of all these things and even maintains territorial claims on what it’s neighbours regard as their territory (and yes, these neighbours include Russia - Japan still claims the Kuril Islands).

What ,?
They still wants the Kurils - what’s bast…rd.
We could only promise them the new nuclear strike instead of Kurils.

Now, perhaps, you understand why I have so little sympathy for the Japanese…

Oh sure i umderstand - those little evil japanes.
I just wonder , how the american drop ONLY two a-bombs in 1945.
They need to drop more in 1946,47,48 and ets - every ears for the japanes do not forget who are they
If they will continie in such way - we soon will hear ( as Rising Sun wrote) that the death-camp for the allies POWs were the simply Rest-Camp with the light-working teraphy specialisation ( this ONLY for the allies POWs woud not be too fat from the excellent feeding).

Cheers.

[tankgeezer]

@Chevan

Thank you tankgeezer
How is your “20-mm” rifle - does it still work;)

Why, yes it does Chevan, though the ammo is very expensive. It is one of about 400 still operable, as he other 600 of those imported were gelded by the gov’t after some villains used one to shoot out the engines of polce cars after a bank robbery. Those rifles already in civilian hands were exempt from the de-activation. I have a box of original 41’ Finn ammo, and one round of very high quality German ammo. I will have to dust it off, and take a picture with it. I might even use my Salyut 6x6 camera.

[Chevan]

@tankgeezer

Why, yes it does Chevan, though the ammo is very expensive. It is one of about 400 still operable, as he other 600 of those imported were gelded by the gov’t after some villains used one to shoot out the engines of polce cars after a bank robbery. Those rifles already in civilian hands were exempt from the de-activation. I have a box of original 41’ Finn ammo, and one round of very high quality German ammo. I will have to dust it off, and take a picture with it. I might even use my Salyut 6x6 camera.

Well, i will wait for this picture:D
And what is the Salyut 6x6 camera?

[pdf27]

@Chevan

Navertheless tell us honestly - was the our official version of bombing not domestic?
so why the Japanes have to admit our domestic version ( that we persistently suggested to them and we were very offended that they do not want this to assume - as made the Germans)?

Ummm… sorry, but you’ve completely lost me here.

@Chevan

Imagine it?
Are you kidding?
Why need to imagine it , you yeasy could see it in … the Europe
In the newest member - Baltic states.

Is this officially government-sponsored, or is it a random group of far right nutters? I was aware that there were some very unsavoury people out there, and that the government badly mishandled the moving of a Russian war memorial (I can understand thier reasons for wishing to move it, but the way it was handled was downright crass). However, if there are actual Nazi apologists in power than that’s big news that someone has been keeping quiet about in my part of the world.

@Chevan

What ,?
They still wants the Kurils - what’s bast…rd.
We could only promise them the new nuclear strike instead of Kurils.

Not exactly. The bit that gets me nervous is that Germany was thoroughly denazified after WW2 and nobody in their right mind seriously thinks that they’re likely to invade their neighbours again. In Japan the job was only halfway done - there are lots of very pacifist people out there, but not in the higher reaches of government, and still a lot of ultra-nationalists out there. Given current political trends Japan isn’t likely to start wars with it’s neighbours in the near future, but I am far less confident about them than I am about any other advanced industrial country.

@Chevan

Oh sure i umderstand - those little evil japanes.
I just wonder , how the american drop ONLY two a-bombs in 1945.
They need to drop more in 1946,47,48 and ets - every ears for the japanes do not forget who are they

Hardly. The postwar denazification of Germany didn’t involve the mass use of applied violence, but rather political will. Something sorely lacking in the case of the Japanese, sadly.

[Chevan]

@pdf27

Is this officially government-sponsored, or is it a random group of far right nutters? I was aware that there were some very unsavoury people out there, and that the government badly mishandled the moving of a Russian war memorial (I can understand thier reasons for wishing to move it, but the way it was handled was downright crass). However, if there are actual Nazi apologists in power than that’s big news that someone has been keeping quiet about in my part of the world.

Did you see somwher the random group of nazy-nutters who installed on the state land the Nazy memorial?
It sadly but you nothing know about the problem in “your part of world”
The neo-nazy officially supported by the some of state leaders in Baltic states.
And their pranks toward the jews and the race clearising calls is no the Mystery in the Baltic states today.
So what do you want form the Japanes if you do not notice even the European Revisionists.

Hardly. The postwar denazification of Germany didn’t involve the mass use of applied violence, but rather political will. Something sorely lacking in the case of the Japanese, sadly.

Hey i/m was joking here;)
Nobody wish to se the wearpon neither Japanes nor Germans

[pdf27]

@Chevan

Did you see somwher the random group of nazy-nutters who installed on the state land the Nazy memorial?
It sadly but you nothing know about the problem in “your part of world”

One of the side-effects of the Cold War I’m afraid - Japan was on the “side” of the west during the Cold War, so those of us on the same “side” tend to know about it reasonably well and understand what is going on. Eastern Europe was cut off from us by a virtually impenetrable barrier from 1939 to 1991, and so has remained very much an unknown land to most of us. This is slowly changing, but right now most people’s understanding comes from going drinking in places like Prague for the weekend. Unfortunate, but something that will change with time.

[tankgeezer]

@Chevan

Well, i will wait for this picture:D
And what is the Salyut 6x6 camera?

The salyut 66 is a Russian version of an older Hasselblad camera, the 1000-F I think. not sure of the spelling,(could be Solyut) I dont have matching idiographs on my keyboard, but its close to “canI0m.” the n is reversed, and the I-0 is connected and the upright is nearly in contact with the O joined by the dash.
its a very nice camera, and I enjoy using it on occasion.I have a Zorki 35 mm , and its fun to use too. For business, I have to use my workhorse Hassleblads, which are heavier, and more complex. EDIT: I ripped a pic of a salyut so you can see it. Okay, back to topic.