Spies in the cold war

Other Wars Cold War
#21

In Australia it was, maybe still is, AUSTEO. Australian Eyes Only, which was additional to normal classifications. (No, I’m not giving anything away, because it’s been published.) Like most classifications, at times it seemed to be applied randomly.

There’ve been periods where the US has tightened up on what it gave us, because of concerns about leaks at our end. At least one of those periods related to a suspected mole or moles in our intelligence services, and I don’t think the issue was ever satisfactorily resolved.
ASIS http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/stories/s249979.htm
ASIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Security_Intelligence_Organisation

I think the UK had similar experiences, for similar reasons.

ASIO, for which I nearly worked a very long time ago in a youthful burst of anti-terrorist sentiment (the 1970’s Red Brigades / Baader Meinhof / Palestinian aeroplane hijacking era), is probably a clown organisation that, because it’s free of pubic scrutiny, can delude itself into believing it actually knows what it’s doing. Until it is subjected to public scrutiny. http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/asio-interrogators-were-grossly-incompetent-judge/2007/11/12/1194766588126.html

#22

Ha guyes we all even have not guessed what really happened.
Meanwhile i, ve read the interesting article about actions of the enemy frogmans in.
29 october 1955 the Soviet Battleship “Novorossiisk” ( former Italian “Juli Cezar” or “Djuzepe Chezare”) was blowed up into the pieces near the military base Sevasopol ( Crimea) by the great bomb that was installled by the Extra-professional frogmans.

#23

Were killed 600 sailors.
For the long time the official verition was a GErman old ww2 mine.
However according the conclisions of specialists even the bunch of the GErmans Mines was not capable to critically damage the 8 decks ( more then 156 Square metters)
This was a obvious fact of diversion.
The ONLY few frogmans were able to made such thing - the our Grabb was one of the such man.
For the long time were suspected the Italian special unit (10 MAC ) that was specialized on the Underwater diversions since the ww2.
As it was established by the british press - after the ww2 the Italians even teached the BRitain frogmans.
After the beginning of Cold war the Italians diversants were called for the service.
And there is no any doubts- the Italians COULD not realise dsuch insolent actions themself without British support.
The Novorossisk were passed to the Soviet Side in the 1949 after being in Britain ( according the special allies treaty of partition the fleets of Germany and Italy).
The political backgroung in the 1955 was the crisis in Near East .
After the Egupth declared the war to the Britain- the brits feared that the Novorossisk could be used agains the BRitish.

#24

Link?

#25

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Giulio_Cesare
That’s i just have found out in English

battleship Novorossisk

A more theatrical conspiracy explanation was that Italian frogmen were avenging the transfer of the formerly-Italian battleship to the USSR. Covert action by the Italian special operations unit Decima Flottiglia MAS has often been surmised, and there are reports that not long thereafter a small group of Italian Navy frogmen received high military awards. However, no firm evidence exists for this hypothesis. Another theory states that explosives were hidden in the ship before she was given to the Russians. No evidence of sabotage has been found, though Soviet enquiries did not rule out the possibility because of the poor safeguarding of the fleet base on the night of the explosion. The goal of covertly destroying the battleship would be a small prize compared to the risk of provoking war if discovered, so the motive of such an Italian operation is questionable and does not support these theories. There is also a conspiracy theory that Novorossiysk was sunk by Soviet secret service divers in order to blame Turkey for the sabotage as justification to take control of Bosporus and Dardanelles, and that the plan was eventually abandoned. There is no strong evidence to support this hypothesis.

#26

This is an interesting situation, but I think the conjecture according to the Wiki link is that it could theoretically have been Italian Frogmen, the British aren’t even mentioned, and that this was unlikely as it would have been a grave risk of war for the Italians to do so…And now you’re aimlessly speculating without any real evidence as it’s highly doubtful that the British would even want to be involved in this. Even the link mentions the KGB as a possible suspect conducting a “false flag” operation to blame the Turks - which I think is equally as doubtful…

And you really think Buster Crab was attaching a limpet mine? Really? The British wanted to sink a Soviet warship in their own harbor? No man, I think the British were far more interested in tapping into Soviet communications or tracking their fleet movements…

#27

Firstly its not my speculation, but the professionel. of military historian.
The fack that after the war the Itlians alone could not be able to do such divertion WITHOUT foreign help - is obvious.
And who could be that “foreign help” - is not hard to guess…:wink:

And you really think Buster Crab was attaching a limpet mine? Really? The British wanted to sink a Soviet warship in their own harbor? No man, I think the British were far more interested in tapping into Soviet communications or tracking their fleet movements…

No i do not think they was aimed to blow up the Ordgonikidze in the their own harbour.
Probably it was a special inelligence equipment.
But i think both those incident: the Novorossiisk and Ordgonikidze are closely related.

#28

With no evidence? Again, you’re just throwing out conspiratorial speculations that have actually been dismissed as highly unlikely by the very sources you’ve provided…

No i do not think they was aimed to blow up the Ordgonikidze in the their own harbour.
Probably it was a special inelligence equipment.
But i think both those incident: the Novorossiisk and Ordgonikidze are closely related.

Maybe, but we’ll never know fully what happened in either case. But even the Soviet authorities never really assigned blame…

#29

Maybe, but we’ll never know fully what happened in either case. But even the Soviet authorities never really assigned blame…

Why?
To make the situation worser?
Do not forget it was a Cold War that could transform into the Hot war for the several minutes.
So the Soviets has balmed nobody , but the keep the attention and liqudated the Grabb immediatelly without any doubts.

Nick you sad right now that we will never know story fully, and then you say that there is no evidence.
Sure there is no evideces , however the simple reasonable analys could offer us the few possible versions.
And ONE of the most possible is that the Novorossisk could be the victims f the spesial diversants-frogmants ( like and later Ordgonikidze).
I do not wish to say that Britains was wanted to sink the Ordgonikidze together with Khruhev;)
It means he innevitable Nuclear War.
However to sink the Novorossiisk professionally in the far Sevastopol is not so bad , right;)

#30

Maybe because they were embarrassed? And they were also aware that the United States used the occasion of the USS Maine exploding in Havana Harbor, in what was all likelihood an accident, as an excuse to declare war on Spain even though no real proof existed that a supposed Spanish mine was used is some dastardly sneak attack…

And if the Italian frogman carried it out, then why must have the British have known about it? You offer no explanation other than to try to tie this completely unrelated event to the mystery around Buster Crab’s unfortunate murder/assassination. The Italian naval special ops were amongst the best and most experienced in the world around from before WWII to well after. Why would they even want the UK to assist? Especially if their frogman can’t even put a bug on a Soviet ship in one of their own harbors?

Nick you sad right now that we will never know story fully, and then you say that there is no evidence.

No. What is sad is that you just make shit up borne of idle speculation in place of fact or evidence. Right now, as much evidence exists that Martians destroyed the Red Navy’s ex-Italian ship than did the Italian frogmen…

Sure there is no evideces , however the simple reasonable analys could offer us the few possible versions.
And ONE of the most possible is that the Novorossisk could be the victims f the spesial diversants-frogmants ( like and later Ordgonikidze).
I do not wish to say that Britains was wanted to sink the Ordgonikidze together with Khruhev;)
It means he innevitable Nuclear War.
However to sink the Novorossiisk professionally in the far Sevastopol is not so bad , right;)

Yeah. Another case of the benevolent Soviet authorities absorbing another blow of hideous capitalist, western aggression for the greater good of mankind. How quaint. :rolleyes: