SS deserter on The Eastern Front

World War II Russian Military
#21

During its move from Lanzerath, Belgium to La Gleize, the kampfgruppe had murdered about 300 American POWs, most notably in the neighbourhood of Malmedy. Moreover, in the area of Stavelot, over 100 Belgian civilians (including women and children) were killed by units under Peiper’s command.

Oh common Nick the 300 POWs and 100 civils is a childish with comparition with “activity”
of SS-Sturmbrigade Oskar Dirlewanger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Sturmbrigade_Dirlewanger

His “SS battalion” of criminals has killed much more childrens ONLY in Warsaw in august 1944.

The polish civiils killed without any rules by the SS brigade of Dirlivanfer during “pacification” of Warsaw.

#22

I,ve seen “Mein Krieg” documentary the other day about 3 or 4 soldiers (german) that had filmed in 8mm during the war, and still possesed it.(it’s a wonder how they managed to do it?) They were commenting the sequences as it showed.
Some went to russia as POW and relate their experience
Look for it on the net if you get a chance, the site I’ve seen it on is now closing…

Yup, I saw it too, very interesting and crude, I have the show burned in DVD.

#23

“When the war ended, the German POWs were shipped home — unless they were held by the Red Army. Germans were still being released from Soviet POW camps in 1955. Some probably were never released and spent their lives in captivity.”

-I have read and heard similar things quite often when it comes to German POWs in SU.

Lake Ilmen… is not it end of 1941 - beggining 1942? It is not the end of the war at all.
This I actually don’t know. What happened in Lake Ilmen?

They were no all Nazis, but most of them were. They were skilled, disciplinned and ideologicaly robust - the most dangerous enemy.
They were ideologically “pure” core in the very beginning, but then they also were not effective fighting force. Normal field army did better.
-I can say that from the 2000 men going to fight to the SS from Finland, many if not most were not nazis, they just hated the Reds. Finnish front was stabilized and those 2000 men were “assurance” to Germans that Finns are with them.(and they returned as soon as situation heated up back home)

For your info not only Soviets had hard attitude towards SS. On the western front the German tank crews were affraid to surrender in their black uniform as they resembled SS uniforms. Why were they affraid?
They were afraid of halo put on top of them. Waffen SS fought using camo, not all black.(my friend in the states is a re-enactment trooper)
But I agree that fanatism in small amounts added with best equipment available and very hard training results eventually a good fighting core.

#24

Not really, since you will not listen, hear or learn. You wont bother with facts, but rather make things up and keep on drumming on behalf of them until you yourself are convinced.

What a surprise.Sure you know who was a real savage to the POWs and civils on the occuped lands:)
We saw the photos in other thread.
I looked into the matter. Did you?
I even know the name of the man whos photoalbum held the original photo, and situation really was very close to what I suspected.
-Since it is fruitless to try to reason with you, or to tell you what happened, I wont bother.

Now your revisionism has been showed clearly.
Perhaeps someone else is doing all the revisioning, and the rest of us are left to try and tell how matters were. Until you present Soviet propaganda gems, that is.

Sure not all of them were criminals, but it was proved that Waffen SS were used agains civils( in so called “anti-partisan” operations) where they killed even the children ( like the sadly known Bach-Zelevskij who “pacificated” the Warsaw uprising with awful cruelty).
Agreed. And Soviets stopped and let Polish die.

The Waffen SS/SS has been called as criminal organisation after the war ( the Nurenberg trial) for its wide partisipation in Ethnical mass murders.
It was a normal military organization in the end of war. Our Civil Guard was also labeled as criminal organization, as was Lotta Svärd.

Being the fanatically devoted for Nazy ideas - the Waffen SS was universal instrument of killing.
Halo, anyone?
They succeeded miserably in the beginning of war. Only after decent commanders came along did they get affective.

I still know nothing about crimes of Finnish Battalion of Waffen SS in Caucaus, but just give me a bit more time:)
They were said to be one of the best units, and where they stood, no Red prevailed. Hardly surprising, they were veterans way before joining the Waffen SS.
Also be sure to check when they left.

#25

I already answered on this one:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119756&postcount=15

This I actually don’t know. What happened in Lake Ilmen?

Tikhvin defence operation (16.10.41-18.11.41)
Tikhvin offensive operation (10.11.41-30.12.41)

BTW, from the same site:
Hanko island defence (22.06.41-02.12.41)
Fights on the Finnish front

They were ideologically “pure” core in the very beginning, but then they also were not effective fighting force. Normal field army did better.
Why is that?

-I can say that from the 2000 men going to fight to the SS from Finland, many if not most were not nazis, they just hated the Reds.

I do not know about Finish SS troops, but out of the Danish 6000 strong SS force most were Nazis. Most is like 2/3 or something.

By the way you keep saying “hated Reds” like it somehow suppose to be seen as a virtue.

Waffen SS fought using camo, not all black.(my friend in the states is a re-enactment trooper)

The point is that in the eyes of an ordinary GI an SS nazi assosiated with black uniform. And this worried German tank crues.
It is not like I make it up you know. And no, I did not read it in a russian book.

#26

I noticed, but I also have a habit to answer before reading the thread forwards.
Thanks for the links, they appear very good.

Why is that?
No actual combat experience and no healthy respect towards the opposing force. Green officers with biased opinions on top of that, and suddenly reasons are clear.

I do not know about Finish SS troops, but out of the Danish 6000 strong SS force most were Nazis. Most is like 2/3 or something.
Here it was seen as an assurance.

By the way you keep saying “hated Reds” like it somehow suppose to be seen as a virtue.
After the civil war, reds and whites in Finland were separated, but SU changed all that.
But the viewpoints towards communism was still very much like it was during Civil War. Not hating Russians or Soviets per se, but the ideology which drives them to conquer.

The point is that in the eyes of an ordinary GI an SS nazi assosiated with black uniform. And this worried German tank crues.
It is not like I make it up you know. And no, I did not read it in a russian book.
I know, don’t worry. The images of an SS officer with black dress uniform have little to do with actual combat outfit, but mental image is what many times counts.
But black is and has been the main colour for most Armor troops since the beginning of the Tank-era.

#27

So why you don’t look from different sides on it?
Or do you think that Fiinish “national” point a bit better that russian one?

I even know the name of the man whos photoalbum held the original photo, and situation really was very close to what I suspected.
-Since it is fruitless to try to reason with you, or to tell you what happened, I wont bother.

Sure you know his name coz i linked his site :slight_smile:
And coz you try to invent the nonsense about “women trooper” - yo better do not bother any more times:)

Perhaeps someone else is doing all the revisioning, and the rest of us are left to try and tell how matters were. Until you present Soviet propaganda gems, that is.

Well, it hardly to call the “ethnical murders” in WW2 as the Soviet propoganda m but it seem you have to use it.
OK , as you wish , if it will help you …

Agreed. And Soviets stopped and let Polish die.

This is very disputable endeed, but we all know for sure who did kill them- your old friends-voluntaries from Waffen SS:)

It was a normal military organization in the end of war. Our Civil Guard was also labeled as criminal organization, as was Lotta Svärd.

Sure it was Normal military organisation …
Just “Soviet” Nurenberg Tribunal just a bit hasty to callit as a criminals
Do not worry buddy, they did nothing except fighting with soviets ( end even did not executed the jews).:slight_smile:
You as a tupical revisionist better know about this matter:)

Halo, anyone?

Said Fennica, after leaving the finnish forest…

They succeeded miserably in the beginning of war. Only after decent commanders came along did they get affective.

True , the most cruel of ther crimes have been commited during the last 1-2 years of war.

#28

I suddenly remebered why it’s futile to waste time with you.

http://koti.haminetti.net/sotilaspojat/hattuvaara.html
-Here Veteran is telling about the engagements and captures of Female Soviet troopers. Use translation programs.

http://www.suomenkuvalehti.fi/sk-netti/uutiset-ja-politiikka/kotimaa/alaston-kuva-sodasta.aspx
-Here is study of the photos you twist and turn into your view of matters. Healthy dose of truth for you.

Sure you know his name coz i linked his site :slight_smile:
And coz you try to invent the nonsense about “women trooper” - yo better do not bother any more times:)
So, here is Chevan, saying that womans were not in uniforms during WW2.
Well, just about every source says that women were fighting alongside with men in the Red Army, but I imagine Chevans claims must be true, he says so.
The site you linked is not the owner of the photo.

Well, it hardly to call the “ethnical murders” in WW2 as the Soviet propoganda m but it seem you have to use it.
OK , as you wish , if it will help you …
Translation needed. How is this an answer to my saying, and what is this lad trying to spill out.

This is very disputable endeed, but we all know for sure who did kill them- your old friends-voluntaries from Waffen SS:)
And now we see how I suddenly am old budies with Waffen SS… Seriously, do mods work here?
You might want to read about voluntary SS troops, it helps and you wont look quite as dumb.

Sure it was Normal military organisation…
Lotta Svärd was a military organization??!! Well done! Yet another way to twist facts!!
And Civil Guard wasn’t?? What do you even know about it? I’d imagine not much.

Just “Soviet” Nurenberg Tribunal just a bit hasty to callit as a criminals
Do not worry buddy, they did nothing except fighting with soviets ( end even did not executed the jews).:slight_smile:
Again, he pulls unrelated matter in, and tries to blackpaint all he can. Jewish question was not a question here. Study some, then talk. Jews living in Finland are Finns, talk finnish, fight for Finland.

You as a tupical revisionist better know about this matter:)
I see only one of that sort; you.

Said Fennica, after leaving the finnish forest…
No, I am still here, enjoying our advanced and stable democracy.

True , the most cruel of ther crimes have been commited during the last 1-2 years of war.
By Soviets.
Whatever inhuman and cruel actions the Nazis do in the name of their ideology, Soviets returned that favour with intrests. Might want to check that one too.

#29

Oh i did not know you suffer by disaster of memory.
And you suddenly remembered…this is a good sign.

http://koti.haminetti.net/sotilaspojat/hattuvaara.html
-Here Veteran is telling about the engagements and captures of Female Soviet troopers. Use translation programs.

http://www.suomenkuvalehti.fi/sk-netti/uutiset-ja-politiikka/kotimaa/alaston-kuva-sodasta.aspx
-Here is study of the photos you twist and turn into your view of matters. Healthy dose of truth for you.

Oh , Great.
What translation program do you prefer?
you think the finnish is the second greatest language in the world?

So, here is Chevan, saying that womans were not in uniforms during WW2.

Oh my funny friend.
Unfortinatelly you have not just disaster of memory but and sight too:)
when did i say that womans were not in uniforms during WW2?
And Where did you see the “woman in uniform” at that photo, my half-blind opponent?

The site you linked is not the owner of the photo.

This page of the site , that i’ve linked contain the his personal ww2 photo-archive? and his name has been written on the top of the site.

Translation needed. How is this an answer to my saying, and what is this lad trying to spill out.
And now we see how I suddenly am old budies with Waffen SS… Seriously, do mods work here?

Yeas / they are still here.
And i wonder why you still have not been banned for revisionism:)

You might want to read about voluntary SS troops, it helps and you wont look quite as dumb.

I’ve read enough about voluntaries of Waffen SS, their race hate and cruely toward the “low races”

Lotta Svärd was a military organization??!! Well done! Yet another way to twist facts!!
And Civil Guard wasn’t?? What do you even know about it? I’d imagine not much.

WTF Lotta Svärd/
We tell about Waffen SS at all.
So the particular occasions of inhuman cruely was very tupical for that units especially in last period of war.

Again, he pulls unrelated matter in, and tries to blackpaint all he can. Jewish question was not a question here. Study some, then talk. Jews living in Finland are Finns, talk finnish, fight for Finland.

Not you say that the Waffen SS have no any relation to the execution of jews?:slight_smile:
And do not call the Nurenberg tribunal please as “unrelated matter” here.
Remember about mods.

I see only one of that sort; you.

Oh there is no any problem, we have already saw you have a weak sight :slight_smile:

No, I am still here, enjoying our advanced and stable democracy.

You still here …in the forest…:slight_smile:

By Soviets.
Whatever inhuman and cruel actions the Nazis do in the name of their ideology, Soviets returned that favour with intrests. Might want to check that one too.

Oh really?
Did the soviets treated to death the 1/3 of finnish civil population, as it has been commited by finns in the occuped Karelia?
Mey be you would like to check this statistic too?

#30

Of course. But my point was that the actual “Blowtorch BATTALION” was stationed on the Eastern Front before Peiper came to the Ardennes. And his methods of killing anyone he deemed a problem and using terror was learned there.

I believe some wanted to try him for these crimes after he was found not guilty of the Malmedy Massacre because of the fouled up US Army CIC/CID investigation. He wasn’t and lived in France until 1976, when he was killed in a mysterious shooting and arson incident. Theories abound about who killed him…

#31

It’s hard to beleive to me,any SS soldiers was a deserter in the eastern front,especially in the latest years,it’s not the best business be a pow in east,one of my old friend(RIP) tell me in the russian lagers everybody must take off his uniform top,and hands must up.
Who have the tatto in his armpit with his blood type,separated each other immediatly,and move this group to a pit to shoot down.
Many tank commander,or staff must to die,because they have black uniform with Totenkopf,and the russians soldiers or civilians watch only the skull and think false,and lynch these unlucky wehrmacht soldiers.

#32

I totally agree with that statement…Chevan…there was a big difference…between the german ss…and the volunteer ss…my dad was with the hungarian ss…served on the russian front…captured by the russians…released in august 1945…didnt kill him…captured going back to his homeland…of course considered a TRAITOR…sentenced to death…but released by a JEWISH LADY…would love information on her…if anyone knows anything…escapes to AUSTRIA…OF COURSE…joins the AMERICAN military…as MILITARY POLICE…or civilan guard think thats what it was called…from 1950—1954…comes to AMERICA IN 1954…IF anyone has information…on my FATHER…GREATLY APPRECIATED…born in seygeds hungary on september 6b 1917…died nov.1965…seen only one photo…of him in his ss uniform doing research…thanks for any help

#33

fathers name…was JANOS MURIN…SERVED IN THE HUNGARIAN SS

#34

The Germans did kill a number of civilians in Britain in bombing raids and I would certainly expect that this would have lead to reprisals by British soldiers.

#35

The Finnish Volunteer Battalion was about 2000 strong unit which fought in Waffen SS Division Wiking in the Eastern Front during 1941 - 1943 (a 2 year agreement of service between Finland and Germany). After the service time expired the unit was sent back to Finland and was disbanded with the men distributed into various units of the Finnish army.

The Bn is often referred as a “Hostage” or a “Pawn Battalion”.

There was a clear distinction between the Finnish and German (+ other non-German) SS troopers:

The Finns as soldiers were veterans of the Winter War and thus possessed a healthy respect for the Soviet soldiers and their fighting capabilities.

The Finns as citizens of a democracy had a different set of values as human beings as they were NOT politically indocrinated and thus were not filled any kind of nazi humbug of racial superiority.

So, it is not that surprising that the Finnish Volunteer SS Bn has no records of war crimes.

It is up to Chevan to make them up if he wants to. :lol: