The decision about Bomber Command, other RAF command, mission numbers for crews was based on a 1942 study (see attachment). Of course the survival rates changed drastically as the war progressed.
As to the survival rates and actual casualties, this paper highlights the problems of ascertaining accurate figures:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/r_m_g.varley/Strategic_Air_Offensive.html
Chevan, I should have clarified. The Eighth Air Force halted deep penetration raids into Germany when their losses were surpassing their ability to replace them. That is not to say they “stopped.” And other units were engaged in strategic bombing. And we can argue all day as to how effective the bombers were in the particular roles they were used in. But 50% casualties, while heroic should have given pause, as these were the best and the brightest that Britain had to offer and both the US and Britain suffered a form of “brain drain” from their ground forces as the result of putting such an emphasis on strategic bombing…
Oh so it was a ONLY way of help for the Soviets:)
To kill almost all the woman in cities( and wrecked by it the Soviet soldiers moral who as we know very loved the buatiful Germans woman and were very distressed of this sad fact :)) - is a help for the Soviets already:)
The lack of girls make the soviet soldiers to love the 50-60 years old grandmas:)
Thank you guys for such help:)
But this is whole other off-topic thread:)
But they actually breaked the active bombing compaine till the feb of 1944.
And it wasn’t just coz " there loses were surpassing their ability to replace them". Britain has no any agventage or superiority befor the american in ability to restore the casualties. Moreover after the 1943 the great part of the British military orders was placed in USA coz the Britain industry simply was not capable to build such great figures of Airplais and ships.
And i do not deny tha fact that Strategic Forces was elite in both states US and UK.The pilots of bomber got the best honnor in society , were heroized by the mass media and recieved the greatest payment. As any elite - it was a wishful aim for any soldier - to be entered into the strategic fleet company.
Almost as int eh USSR - there alot of young soldiers who dreamed about aviation:this was a great honor to be the pilot of fighter.
Chevan, sometimes you seem to forget that Allies were really meant to help USSR.
But whatever they did, it would never be enough for you.
Let’s focus on the thread then.
There were no 2355 british bombers over Hamburg. It was 2355 sorties made by no more than 800 bombers.
Andy why did Americans sent “only” 230 planes?
“While the nightraids continued for another week until the operation’s conclusion on August 3, the American daytime bombings ceased after the first two days due to smoke from the previous night’s bombings obscuring their targets.”
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/aerialcampaigns/p/gomorrah.htm
Now I hope you finally got it.
Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski
I do always remember that the allies was aimed to help the USSR - but sometimes it turned into the very strange way:)
Anyway you are very good guy who try to protect the Allies( i like you such). Even if they speak the other version:)
True pole.
There were no 2355 british bombers over Hamburg. It was 2355 sorties made by no more than 800 bombers.
Andy why did Americans sent “only” 230 planes?“While the nightraids continued for another week until the operation’s conclusion on August 3, the American daytime bombings ceased after the first two days due to smoke from the previous night’s bombings obscuring their targets.”
Now I hope you finally got it.
Not finally yet.You know i’m very hard forehead:)
The 8 USAAF refused the fly not becouse the smoke but becouse the great casualties that had to restore force for several month( see above at Nickdfresh post).
The smoke could be a barier for few days but not for 4 month:)
Besides the smoke was never a problem for the bombing of cities - it was carpet bombing - not target.
For that period till the feb 1944 the 8 Air fleet simply did not realize the other great bombing compains.
After that the 8 USAAF had finally received the good escort fighter- nobody even mentioned about smoke:)
Care to suggest anything else the UK could actually do? If nothing else, the night bombing raids disturbed the sleep of factory workers - thus reducing production. Furthermore, a significant amount of production which could have been used against the Soviets was redirected to defend against the area bombing raids. Antiaircraft and antitank guns for instance are very similar, and tactical aircraft can simply be redeployed.
Thanks, I’m glad you are not using the stereotypes - that’s really promising… 
But what else could I expect?
Well, this is what Nickdresh wrote:
“The Eighth Air Force halted deep penetration raids into Germany when their losses were surpassing their ability to replace them. That is not to say they “stopped.” And other units were engaged in strategic bombing.”
First you had said that 8AF “stopped” operations, now wrote that it “refused to fly”.
When do you get your information from mate?
The info about the smoke wa an answer for your comment about number of US sorties over Hamburg during “Operation Gomorrah”.
Yo are wrong again - 8AF was not conducting a carpet bombing in 1943.
Later in the war, the 8AF conducted so called “radar-bombing” which allowed them to attack target covered with smog, smoke or clouds.
Well, the artillery fire sacks from the East probably also killed quite a few women…
And the mighty Red Army wasn’t limited to just lovin’ the girls…
No. “They” were “bombing” the entire time…
And it wasn’t just coz " there loses were surpassing their ability to replace them". Britain has no any agventage or superiority befor the american in ability to restore the casualties. Moreover after the 1943 the great part of the British military orders was placed in USA coz the Britain industry simply was not capable to build such great figures of Airplais and ships.
The US never produced Lancasters or Mosquitoes…
And i do not deny tha fact that Strategic Forces was elite in both states US and UK.The pilots of bomber got the best honnor in society , were heroized by the mass media and recieved the greatest payment. As any elite - it was a wishful aim for any soldier - to be entered into the strategic fleet company.
Almost as int eh USSR - there alot of young soldiers who dreamed about aviation:this was a great honor to be the pilot of fighter.
Perhaps. But the “cost vs. benefit” comparison is questionable…
I certainly believe in the idea of strategic bombing, but I think a more limited, narrowly focused campaign (as evidenced in the use of strategic bombers just prior to D-Day) against transportation targets closer to the fronts might have been more effective with a lowered cost in both air crew casualties and German civilians…
But far not as much intensive as the Britains until the 1944.
The US never produced Lancasters or Mosquitoes…
But Britons also never prodused the B-17 - they have buyed all of them in USA.
Coz the ONLY American industry could build the so great numbers of the strategic bombers.
Perhaps. But the “cost vs. benefit” comparison is questionable…
I certainly believe in the idea of strategic bombing, but I think a more limited, narrowly focused campaign (as evidenced in the use of strategic bombers just prior to D-Day) against transportation targets closer to the fronts might have been more effective with a lowered cost in both air crew casualties and German civilians…
There is a objective seriouse dilemma - the strategic bombing could be really effective and usefull ( in military sence) ONLY agains the military and strategical targets- But those targets usially have a strong AAA-defence. Thus the allied command have choosed the bombing of cities as the more easy target:)
But bombing of cities is nothing more then Genocide Nick. - that why the strategic bombing could not be justified in way that it was used in the ww2.
You will laugh my friend but from…wiki:)
OK if you do not like the “stopped” and “refused to fly” lets call it as “the Eighth halted air operations over Germany” and work done.
Lets finish this sensless disput.
The info about the smoke wa an answer for your comment about number of US sorties over Hamburg during “Operation Gomorrah”.
Yo are wrong again - 8AF was not conducting a carpet bombing in 1943.
Yea , and what “definite target” did they bombed in Hamburg?
Later in the war, the 8AF conducted so called “radar-bombing” which allowed them to attack target covered with smog, smoke or clouds.
OK.
The RAF never operated more than a handful of B-17s - a small number were handed over under lend-lease early in the war and proved not to be a success as day bombers and were rapidly withdrawn and handed over to Coastal Command - as were most subsequent deliveries. Later in the war a small number were used by 100 Group as electronic warfare aircraft in support of the heavy bombers (the B-17 had a high service ceiling and so was more suited to the role than any of the British bombers). All in all, deliveries of B-17s to the RAF were less than 200 over the course of the war. This to a force that suffered very heavy casualties yet could put over 1,000 bombers over a target on any given night…
sure you right.
The Britains used only limited figure of B-17.
My point in post for the Nickdfresh was just to show that the USA has absolute figure superiority over britain in figures of heavy bombers ( the ONLY 8 USAAF has reached the 2 000 of bombers and 1000 of escort fighters in the mid 1944).
The British limited industry capability did not let them to produse bombers more them americans have.
Not quite so many aircraft, but those they did produce tended to have a substantially larger bombload. Furthermore the RAF had something of a headstart - the first 1,000 bomber raid was on Cologne in 1942, carried out by Bomber Command. They never really advanced much beyond this level however - towards the end of the war a typical raid would be something like 800 Lancasters over a target. Due to the sheer size and power of the aircraft however this is something like 4,000 tonnes of bombs - similar in capability to what the USAAF could deliver. Daylight bombing increased the defensive requirements on an aircraft, to the extent that a B-17 and a Mosquito could deliver a similar bombload over a similar distance, while at typical ranges a Lancaster would deliver 2-3 times the bombload of a B-17.
Was it ever proposed that American and British forces be sent to the USSR and given a certain portion of the front to fight on so that they could kill more Germans?
In world war I the British/Canadians/Australians, etc held a portion of the western front against the Germans in France and where able to make substantial contributions.
I think I read ones about such discussion regarding using British troop in the Kola peninsula near Musmansk. But it was dropped. Besides Stalin would have then think how to get rid of them after the war.
There was a French fighter unit on the Eastern Front, called “Normandie-Niemen”.
The fact that the UK was one of several countries to invade Russia in 1919 to try and support the Whites against the communists would presumably not have been forgotten either…