The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

Probably, because if it won in the West then Germany didn’t have any great strategic interests in the oceans and turf to be contested by Japan and America compared with its strategic and other interests in conquering the USSR.

However, the problem for Germany was that if it left America and Japan to thrash it out then the likely result was that America would defeat Japan and assume control of its conquests, notably most of the world’s rubber supply in Malaya and a huge component of the world’s oil supply in the NEI (to which Germany had, in a sense, title by conquest of the Netherlands) and to a lesser extent in Burma, along with various minerals and other things useful to resource-poor Germany in those territories which Japan would have made available to its Axis partner.

Given Germany’s poverty in such resources as America would acquire by supplanting Japan, Britain and France as the colonial power in the Pacific and South East Asia, allowing America to obtain them would only ensure that the new world order would be a contest between the Titans of Germany and America.

These are good reasons for Germany on a strategic basis trying to deny those resources to America and therefore not leaving it to thrash it out with Japan.

On the other hand, Germany’s primary concern is the USSR and it would be foolish to divide its forces by taking on the US at the same time. (Which, of course, Hitler would not do as in reality he was wise enough to avoid a war on two fronts. :rolleyes: )

America and Germany could have divided the world between them, with America getting the Pacific, China, maybe Siberia, and former British possessions from India eastwards, and Germany most of the rest in Europe and around the Mediterranean.

Then Germany and America set up trade relations for mutual benefit, pretty much like the Allies and the major Axis powers did after the war anyway. :rolleyes:

Trade always trumps wars, in the long term. It wouldn’t if the merchants had to fight the wars from which they profit, before, during, and after.

[QUOTE=America and Germany could have divided the world between them, with America getting the Pacific, China, maybe Siberia, and former British possessions from India eastwards, and Germany most of the rest in Europe and around the Mediterranean.QUOTE]

And then we (South Africa) would have had a s…t pail hanging over our heads to be sure. Hitler would have remembered us kicking their arses out of South West Africa and I think some payback would have been the order of the day.

I carefully left non-Mediterranean / sub-Saharan Africa out of my comments as I’m not sure what would have happened there (as distinct from my concrete certainty about other extremely speculative possibilities on the rest of the globe :wink: :smiley: ).

Why would Germany have wanted to get into South Africa?

If Germany abandoned the Indian and Pacific oceans to the Japanese and Americans, would they have needed anything in South Africa, such as a naval base?

Would there have been any sense of brotherhood with the Boers, or were they not regarded as Germanic / Aryan?

RS, keep in mind that Hitler wanted to regain the “Glory” of the old German Empire. And part of it were -by then former- colonies such as Namibia or Somalia IIRC, which were occupied by the Allies after WW1.
So Hitler would very much so have a reason to into the Sub-Saharan.
Australia wouldn’t have a good time either, because German colonies were right above it, too, and captured by them after/during WW1 IIRC…

It was New Guinea, which was mandated to Australia after WWI.

Given a choice in 1942, I’d rather be an Australian facing conquest by Germany than Japan.

German and Australian troops fought some very, very vicious battles in North Africa, Greece and Crete, but there were never any atrocities (as distinct from some occasional nasty events) by either side against the other and each generally respected the other as good and hard soldiers.

I’ve known Aussies who fought in those campaigns who respect the Germans as soldiers, even if they don’t like the Germans harming their mates.

As for the Japanese conquering us, I don’t think I need to explain what horrors that would have been involved from a nation which began its assault on our territory by landing in Papua and beheading several people and then shooting a six year old boy in that group who, distressed by seeing his father beheaded in front of him, wouldn’t stay still long enough for a Japanese hero with a sword to demonstrate his great samurai skills by beheading the small child.

The Japanese at times made the Einsatzgruppen look effete. :evil:

Strategically, Germany had no need to attack Australia once it had won in Europe and, had it tried to do so, it would have suffered even greater and probably ultimately fatal LOC problems than Japan attempting the same exercise.

We’re a small nation but, for those of us with any knowledge of WWII, we take a degree of pride in being the first to repel the unstoppable Japanese at Milne Bay in 1942 and being the first to stop the unstoppable Germans at Tobruk in 1941.

During Tobruk, Hitler pressed Rommel to crush the Australian colonials. Rommel replied that they were not colonials but Australians and that if Rommel had two divisions of them he would conquer the world for Hitler. This was not, in modern parlance, a career enhancing comment.

I believe that. Fighting Australians in Australia would have been even nastier…

That would certainly have been our pespective. :wink:

[QUOTE=.We’re a small nation but, for those of us with any knowledge of WWII, we take a degree of pride in being the first to repel the unstoppable Japanese at Milne Bay in 1942 and being the first to stop the unstoppable Germans at Tobruk in 1941.

During Tobruk, Hitler pressed Rommel to crush the Australian colonials. Rommel replied that they were not colonials but Australians and that if Rommel had two divisions of them he would conquer the world for Hitler. This was not, in modern parlance, a career enhancing comment.[/QUOTE]

Don’t forget the South Africans, Kiwis and Ghurkas were there too! I must admit that I’ve heard that same quote about 2 divisions of Saffers…

[QUOTE=Why would Germany have wanted to get into South Africa?

If Germany abandoned the Indian and Pacific oceans to the Japanese and Americans, would they have needed anything in South Africa, such as a naval base?

Would there have been any sense of brotherhood with the Boers, or were they not regarded as Germanic / Aryan?[/QUOTE]

He wouldn’t have wanted to get in SA per se, but remember General Jan Smuts defeated the German colonial forces in South West at the outbreak of WW2 and became “caretaker” of the country until 1975. So Hitler would have re-claimed the colony first and then it would only have been a matter of time before the local South African “Broederbond” who were apposed to SA’s participation in the war on the side of the Allies, would have asked and received Hitlers support for a “PUSCH” here as well.

There was very strong anti-British sentiment in SA at the time of WW2 and there was a lot internal strife and violence between the pro and anti war lobbies. SA was almost on the brink of civil war during 1942.

Geoff

Not at the same time as the Australians during the initial conquest and subsequent siege, as far as I’m aware, although the Kiwis were significant in lifting the siege at the end of 1941. The last Australian unit pulled out soon after the siege was lifted.

As far as I know the SA troops were involved in ‘Tobruk 2’ in mid-1942, but no Australian troops were there then.

On a separate issue, just use the ‘Quote’ button under a post to quote a comment. If you want to split it up to deal with parts of the quote individually, highlight the opening part in brackets, such as [ QUOTE=saffer;147942 ] , copy it, paste it in front of the next part you want to quote and finish it with [/quote] .

Thanks for that.

You have increased immeasurably my knowledge of SA internal matters during WWII which, no disrepect to you, wouldn’t be hard as I knew absolutely nothing about them.

Could you expand on your post, or perhaps refer me to a site which covers these matters?

Sounds like there were very serious tensions between the English and Boer camps which could have undermined SA as a Commonwealth participant in the war and which weren’t replicated in other dominions which were essentially Anglophone and largely Anglophile.

If SA had somehow gone over to the Germans, how would this have affected the war? Would it have caused problems for the RN and perhaps other navies in moving from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean and onward? Was there any other strategic or LOC significance?

On an unrelated issue in a story I rather like, Smuts figures in the political machinations to recognise the service of our major WWII military leader, Thomas Blamey, a man who like MacArthur and others had impressive qualities and uncompromising views but who could be a real turd as well. Much as I dislike citing Wiki I’d rather Google a summary than type it out myself and this is an accurate, if incomplete, summary.

Sir Thomas Blamey was the first and is the only Australian-born field marshal. He was promoted to the rank on the insistence of the then Australian Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies in 1951.

Blamey served in the World War I in the First Australian Imperial Force (AIF), from the horrors of trench warfare at the ANZAC positions at Gallipoli to duties as chief of staff to Lieutenant General Sir John Monash, Commander of the Australian Corps in France and Belgium. Blamey attained the rank of brigadier general by the war’s end.

During the inter-war years he served as chief commissioner of the Victoria Police. During the 1920s and 1930s he expressed public concern over the state of the Australian Military Forces due to financial restrictions brought about by the Great Depression.

During World War II he commanded the 2nd AIF. He was promoted to General in 1941 and became Commander-in-Chief of the Australian Military Forces and Commander of Allied Land Forces in the South West Pacific Area under the overall command of United States General Douglas MacArthur.

Blamey attended Japan’s ceremonial surrender in Tokyo Bay on September 3, 1945 and signed the Instrument of Surrender on behalf of Australia. He later personally accepted the Japanese surrender at Morotai. In his address to the surrendering Japanese commander, Blamey declared: “…In accepting your surrender, I do not recognise you as an honourable foe…”. This speech is also on display in the Australian War Memorial, Canberra.

The then British Chief of the Imperial General Staff (CIGS), Sir William Slim, himself a field marshal (and later governor-general of Australia), resisted Menzies’ recommendation for Blamey’s promotion, on the grounds that Dominion generals could not be made field marshals. At the time the CIGS was the final authority in the then British Commonwealth for such promotions. Menzies pointed out that Field Marshal Jan Smuts was a Dominion general. Slim countered by saying (untruthfully) that Blamey was a retired officer, and retired officers could not be promoted to field marshal. Menzies got around this restriction by recalling Blamey from retirement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_Marshal_(Australia)

That crazy hitler would have gone on his animal instinct and done everything stupid and its strategically flawed do you think the Germans could hold out that long.

Well, he obviously does…
The German High Command would have had to secretly exchange Hitler with an impersonator or something, because the real one would have never had the strategic skill OR the self discipline to pull that kind of stuff…

Exactly right, in real life

My post was “what would have been a way for them to win the war”, thankfully Hitler was insane, impatient and not much of a strategist, and fought the real war the wrong way :wink:

All it could of took was to take the British weakly defended Suez Canal then he could have assaulted Russia not only via west but south as well. It also would have blocked the shipments of supplies from America to Russia because of the Iran route leaving only the dangerous icy northern region to deliver supplies with went past German occupied Norway.

My view is the Axis had one possibility to win WW2, and that was to defeat the British army comprehensively in 1940 ie to have prevented the evacuation of the B.E.F from Dunkirk. this would have most likely led to the British government offering peace terms and the Axis avoiding war on ‘two fronts’. In other words the ‘halt’ order of I believe 24th May 1940 led inexorably to total Axis defeat by allowing Britain to remain in the war and eventually inevitably leading to a ‘two front’ conflict with the Axis facing overwhelming odds. All other counter factuals end in blind alleys, where maybe the war would have lasted longer but with no change to the final outcome.

If Dunkirk failed for the British, I think it also may be fair to say that the leading party in Britain could have lost confidence in the House, causing the opposition to pull into power, which would have favoured peace over losing more men? maybe?

No. There was no opposition at the time - the government was formed of a grand coalition, which lasted until the 1945 general election.

I did not know that. Thank You for that input.

The Germans did try to comprehensively defeat the British Army. In any case, it’s debatable as to if the evacuation really mattered as to the British hanging the War. Operation Sealion was a fantasy and the Wehrmacht had little hope of actually conquering Britain with or without the few hundred thousand troops evacuated at Dunkirk…