The Rape of Nanking:The Forgotten Genocide.

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#21

But mate
'Any country has its small proportion of Crazy Nationalist and some of them even are in the power.And danger views of small proportion of Western neo-fascist don’t make us to admit that the West is a evil War’s starter.
After that nobody even is going to advise the westernizes what to write in its school textbooks.

Possibly.

Those of us who know what vicious, brutal, merciless bastards the Japanese were during the war don’t have any trouble believing that they carried out the Rape of Nanking, where after all they were just, literally, blooding some of their soldiers.

Agree.
But do we russians really have to believe that Germans in East who as you know sometimes were brutal and merciless are just a wild beasts who shoted Russian Civils by Hundreds per day as the Soviet propogand did inspired to us long time ago?

That doesn’t mean we accept the figures, but I don’t know that figures mean that much once it’s established that a mass atrocity has occurred.

For example, I don’t really care whether six or four or two million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis, with the willing assistance of some other Europeans who were just as anti-Semitic. Whatever happened, it was an appalling exercise beyond all comprehension and the culpability of those responsible for it isn’t made less bad by reducing the number from six million, nor worse by increasing it. Same with Nanking.

Of course you right and nobody deny the mass atrocities , commited by Japs in the China.
The Mass Killing of civils purpose Terrror ( Jews or Chineses) is disgusting and has no justification.And of course you right , this isn’ so importaint how exactly many civils have been killed .
But i think there still a difference between the real STatistic and Propogand.Especially if it differ in 10 times.
Why we shall admit the Chinas propogand ONLY becouse we don’t like Japs too?( That Also spread about “Evil Imperialist USA” who is making to suffer the poor CHineses in Taiwan, being forced separated by dastard Americans from the Home China:) )

#22

[QUOTE=Ardee;133706]Maybe you were just being sloppy in your language, but this bothered me. I thought at the time Nanking was still under Nationalist control?

Well the Japanese wasn’t really fantastic warriors. Yes they have some very crack divisions but the rest were just peasant like the chinese. They capitalised on the fact that the communists and Nationalists were fighting and when both greatly weakened, just grabbed the city while the chinese retreated. National leader Chiang always thought that the communists were in their last breath and a final finishing touch can complete the victory. Fighting the Japs can wait and meanwhile traded the land for time.

We know how the Japs were bloody defeated by the Russians under Zhukov in 1939. The Japs, against mechanised forces stood no chance at all.

#23

We don’t need crazy nationalists or neo-fascists to start wars. Bush is not crazy or a nationalist or fascist in the sense the Nazis and Japanese militarists were, but the prick still starts stupid wars, not all of which and quite possibly not the worst of which have even begun yet. :frowning:

I’m a lot more comfortable with a British or American nationalist of the WWII type, excluding the fascist ones, than the Japanese type.

No, because it wasn’t most Germans and even those who were involved in murders and massacres probably weren’t wild beasts. As Hannah Arendt observed, there is a banality to evil. But it was some Nazi Germans, and probably some Germans who were just brutes (which every nation and army has) without being Nazis, and some fascists and brutes from other parts of Europe who were serving with the Nazis.

Many Japanese showed varying degrees of mercy and kindness to captured Allied troops and people in occupied territories, and often more than one would expect from the harsh standards imposed upon Japanese troops. No doubt the same is true of the Germans (but probably not the Italians, as too many of them were POWs to get a decent statistical base :wink: :D) So, one can’t say that all Japanese or Germans were merciless brutes, or kind, but one can point to general conduct by the Japanese in war and occupation and by the Germans in the East which was brutal in the extreme

Agree.

It’s important for historical purposes to try to arrive at the correct figure, and the figures shouldn’t be inflated or deflated to serve the purposes of particular groups.

Yes, since 1949 China has its own peculiarities with its presentation of its twentieth century history.

Even though I try to be objective, I’m probably a lot more willing to believe the Japanese behaved badly anywhere between 1931-45 because I’ve absorbed a certain view of them from Australia’s contact with them, as have many other Australians, but a white South African or a Brazilian who has none of that history, although both were Allied nations, might take more convincing. None of us can separate ourselves from our national experiences, or at least from our perspective of our national experiences.

Yes, the Taiwanese certainly look downtrodden and oppressed by the US and really resentful that the US won’t let them join PRC. :wink: :smiley:

#24

Okay, I guess I have to be careful about use of idiom here! I’ll try to be more clear…

Firstly i seriously doubt that Pacific war was more shakier then the Eastern European one.

When I said my knowledge of the Pacific war was shakier than that of the European one, it was a way of saying I knew less about that aspect of the war, that theater – I wasn’t suggesting there were more earthquakes or more men trembling in their boots or something like that! :slight_smile:

Indeed at the time Nanking was ALREADY under Japane control, so Nationalists can do nothing.

Of course, once the Japanese took over, they were the ones in control, not any of the Chinese factions. My original point had been to question the meaning of the previous comment:

I don’t know how much it’s true, but we know fro sure- not everything the Commi speak is absolute true
Even China’s commi.

I was wondering what the “Commi speak” had to do with the conversation here: I had thought the Nationalists (i.e., either the central government or a war lord who was, or at least pretended to be, loyal to the central government) had at least nominal control over the city before the Japanese took the city. Certainly, the presence of German ambassadors, etc., indicates Nationalist control… So, since they were the ones involved, it only makes sense that the Nationalists, not the “Commies,” were the ones behind any contemporary causality estimates. (Yes, I know about the western ambassadors being the ones who witnessed, reported etc., but it would still be the Chinese (those who had previously controlled the city) who either supported the estimates, or not. I am ignoring here any motivations for either telling the truth or lying – I’m just saying they were the ones who should have been in the position to verify/deny. So… what do the Commies have to do with it? Was the original poster saying that the post-war Red Government was the one supplying the casualty estimates? But the international uproar about Nanking preceded the war…so again, what do the
Chinese communists have to do with things?

Soon after he war the Gomindan have been beaten by Communists so hardly they have enough time to calculate all the figures of Japane terror.
The figures of 200 000 killed today shares the Communists powers ( That indeed are pretty Chinas Nationalists too)
How they count their dead i can explane you in one interesting military conflict.
We had a few serious border conflict in 1969
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-So...order_conflict

If I understood what you were saying here - for example, I have no idea of whom Gomindan was, and I’m too busy to google him and the other-items-I’m-not-sure-of at the moment – you seem to be saying the Nationalists were unable to provide casualty estimates after the war, because of the events of the Chinese civil war. And you therefore seem to credit the Communists for providing the 200,000 casualty figure. And then you pointed out that the Chinese causality estimates for some border conflicts with the USSR were off/inflated. But again – weren’t they contemporary estimates of civilian loses in Nanking? What were those estimates; how different were they from the 200,000 figure being cited as coming from the “Commies”??

In march battels soviets lost 58 soldiers and officers killed( the name all of them are known)
The Chinas estimets were 150…3000 dead.
Learn the diffrence.I mean how they “calculate” their casualties.
The official Chinas propogand spread something about " few casualties" that of course in nonsense coz Soviet Army had used the Jet Mortars BM-21 “Grad” widely in this conflict.

I’m not sure if the Chinese estimates you cited were for casualties they themselves had, or whether this was their claim of how much damage they inflicted on the USSR. But either way, battlefield estimates are always suspect. They go through official censors, who may have political/morale reasons for either exaggerating or minimizing casualties.

So i can’t get the CHinas figures as absolut truth any more.

So, again – my question wasn’t about the “truth” so much as it was about the source. I’m not clear on what the role the Chinese Communists had here, why anything they say matters, one way or the other. The Rape of Nanking was viscous enough to cause international outcry before WWII became a world war; what casualty figures was that outrage based on? Surely those weren’t supplied by the commies! And, since they were closer in time to the actual events, the general rules of historians should give those estimates more weight than those coming after the war!

Sorry that this got so much more long-winded than I intended. As I said in the original post, the “commie speak” quote made me wonder if I had misunderstood the situation: if the communists had somehow been in control of the city before the Japanese came, to my mind at least, a whole new range of interpretation of what happened opens up.

#25

The commie have to do with it undirectly.
Just don’t misunderstand me , i/m not a sort of japane revisionists.
My considerations were not about Chinas commi in 1937 (during rape of Nankin) but in post war period, when Chinas authorities cover ( or even ignore) the true statistic about their own casualties.
You right the western ambassadors being the ones who witnessed the massacre.
The figures of 300 000 of victims is coming from the West actualy.
But how do yo think they have got those statistic?
Did they really counted the bodies, asked the victim’s relatives ,checked the Japane military documents in 1937-45?
Hardly.
All their statistical estimates are pretty rough and can’t be even correct.
The only thig that we know for sure- The mass genocide WAS.
Accordng the contemporary statistic - the victims of the WW2 were about 40 mln( +/- 10 mln) we still don’t know for sure.
Although HUNDREDS OF our Historians study the archives by decades.
Also the JEwish Holocaust still advocates the figures of victims 6 +/- 1 million.
Although we have a tonns of documents and archives with list of names- but nobody still don’t know the true statistic.
Keep in mind the ban to any activity in China during the Japane occupation , plus the chaos of Civil war 1946-49.Hardly the Nationalists had time to research to massacre( BTW the ANtionalists is rather incorrect term IMO, the CHinas commi also are pretty Nationalsist too)
So who can guaranty he know the truth?
Japane themself advocating the figures of 30-40 000 of killed( but they didn’t include the executed POWs in this list). Western observers is saing about 300 000.
How can you know which one is true for sure?

If I understood what you were saying here - for example, I have no idea of whom Gomindan was, and I’m too busy to google him and the other-items-I’m-not-sure-of at the moment

Sorry my mistake.
Not Gomindant but Kuomintang - the party of Chinas NAtionalists.

– you seem to be saying the Nationalists were unable to provide casualty estimates after the war, because of the events of the Chinese civil war.

I/m not just saing they were unable to provide statistic, but they even contributed into the Chinas Civil Terror a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuomintang#War
They pretty killed their communist Chineses , inspite of the Japane outside attack.
Both side - communists and nationalsist contributed to a Terror of civils a lot.
Now now their propogand hang up it on the Japs.

But again – weren’t they contemporary estimates of civilian loses in Nanking? What were those estimates; how different were they from the 200,000 figure being cited as coming from the “Commies”??

That’ the problem , nowhere.
They simply repeat the Western propogand about 300 000 , but don’t even care to calculate the figures itself.
As well they don’t care to calculate and report the figures of victims of Great Communist “experiments” since 1950.

I’m not sure if the Chinese estimates you cited were for casualties they themselves had, or whether this was their claim of how much damage they inflicted on the USSR.
But either way, battlefield estimates are always suspect. They go through official censors, who may have political/morale reasons for either exaggerating or minimizing casualties.

True.
But today we have no reason to cover our the figures of killed through 40 years - 58 mans.
So why the Chinases have it?Why still they hide the figures?

So, again – my question wasn’t about the “truth” so much as it was about the source. I’m not clear on what the role the Chinese Communists had here, why anything they say matters, one way or the other. The Rape of Nanking was viscous enough to cause international outcry before WWII became a world war; what casualty figures was that outrage based on? Surely those weren’t supplied by the commies! And, since they were closer in time to the actual events, the general rules of historians should give those estimates more weight than those coming after the war!

I think you right here more then you thought.
We can be sure for their datas after the war.Becouse neither Chians Nationalists not Communist have not provided us with True, objective statistic.
Or even is going to provide us sometning more then their mutual-hate propogand.
Indeed one needs a time to learn the true , ask the witnesses and est
Or are you going to say that if you see the killed peoples- you can know for sure the Scale of Terror?
Allies found out the ONLY few thousands of dead bodies in Nazic concentration camps- does it mean the ONLY those people have been killed there?
As it may be seemed for witnesses.
And i think that “international outcry” is rather subjective concept.
For instance when GErmans have PUBLICALY executed during FEW days about 30 000 of jews ( woman and children) in Babi Yar ( Kiev, Ukraine) in august 1941 - where were the f…ng “international outcry”?

Sorry that this got so much more long-winded than I intended. As I said in the original post, the “commie speak” quote made me wonder if I had misunderstood the situation: if the communists had somehow been in control of the city before the Japanese came, to my mind at least, a whole new range of interpretation of what happened opens up.

I do agree with you point in general.
But i can trust both for figures of Chinas Nationalists, (who pretty added in terror themself) , post war communists, and even the Western witnesses. Becouse this is TOO hard for them to learn the true statistic in occuped China.
But i don’t also believe to Japanese with their “confirmed” 30 000 of killed.
For 1 mln Nankin in 1937 this is suspectively small figure.

#26

Well, the Japanese rightists and the LDP politicians are in bed together and have been there for the last 150 years. There are citizen groups in Japan and some outspoken Japanese WW2 veterans that try to get the message across but they are threatened by rightist thugs.It is sad to see that the truth is denied and supressed here and that most younger Japanese are completely unaware of what their grandfathers did!

#27

Would you include the zaibatsu in this group?

I’m aware of the actions of Professor Saburo Ienaga and his supporters but I haven’t heard before of WWII veterans’ groups joining in the attempts at a more open history. Do you have any examples?

It’s not just younger Japanese who lack knowledge of the war, and who outside Japan often have a distorted view of it from the little factual (often wrong) information they gain from films and television fiction.

#28

Hi, Yes, I include the Zaibatsu.
Professor Ienaga is very popular outside Japan but there also are several servicemen who went public. Some you can see on the documentary “Horror in the East” (BBC) on youtube or “In the Name of the Emperor” also on youtube. There are a few others who tour the country. A couple of years ago there was an exhibition on unit 731 and several ex members made speeches there.