Label “Soviet” means so much. At first Soviet forces were from warmer climate and people of the steppes, who had no experience to woods. Ukranians outfitted with summer tunics.
Only later Soviets brought tough Siberian troops, and Finns complained that these braves took several hits just to stop them coming.
We had saunas, we rotated units to be fed with warm food and a brief rest. Soviets were either thrown at Mannerheim defenders or cut off and surrounded in the Woods. They could not rest, and were under constant pressure from Finnish hit-and-runs. Finnish Marksmen shot anyone making fires…
Saying the Russians weren’t antiquated because they had the T34 is false also, I believe Stalin had the original designer killed also. They didn’t even know how to use it until 1943.
Soviet Tactics was antiquated, their equipment was exellent. Finns thank Stalin for saving us. Had he not killed vast amounts of his best and brightest, we could have fallen.
The russians were a backwards army during the Finnish invasion as well as throughout the entire war. They didn’t beat the Germans by a 'brilliant" strategy. They beat them with “Ham fisted” all ahead mentality that sacrificed millions of Russians un-necessarily.
Soviets, not just Russians. They had newer equipment but no coordination between military branches. They had more men, more tanks, more modern aircraft and way more ammo to the artilley and riflemen.
They could not break Finns because of their utterly poor leadership.
i think the winter war saved russia in front of moscow 2 years later. that little war showed the soviets all their weaknesses, caused by stalins stupidity, poor training and leadership. the battle of suomassalmi was a huge victory for the finns, against a hugely superior(in numbers) army. but temps so low that the russian weapons didnt work, as well as finnish strategy, such as teh genious of making the field kitchens a primary target( napolean said an army marches on its stomach, in finland, a warm stomach preffered!).
as fro the contention that Russia had no plans on all of finland, that is both naive and foolish. suomassalmi’s attack was planned as an assault to split the entire country, with its goal of reaching the swedish border.
Agreed, exept that we do not consider it little. For us it was war of existance.
Soviets adapt and learn quickly. They deployed SMGs in large numbers, took Finnish Suomi SMG drum magazine as the basis of a new mag of their own, massed skiing able men into skiing units, improved co-operation between tanks and armored infantry…
the battle of suomassalmi was a huge victory for the finns, against a hugely superior(in numbers) army. but temps so low that the russian weapons didnt work, as well as finnish strategy, such as teh genious of making the field kitchens a primary target( napolean said an army marches on its stomach, in finland, a warm stomach preffered!).
Also, field kitchens were visible targets. Imagine pitch black night of 19 hours per day in a winter woods. There is little daylight and a good reason to deny Soviets their food and warmth.
as fro the contention that Russia had no plans on all of finland, that is both naive and foolish. suomassalmi’s attack was planned as an assault to split the entire country, with its goal of reaching the swedish border.
We have maps in national archives showing their intended movements, we have orchestra instruments and dress uniforms taken from the Soviets as they would use those in their victor parade in Helsinki, we saw clearly enough what happened to every other nation which agreed on their terms.
Soviets tried to cut Finland in half at Oulu heights, captured Nickel mines in the North, attempted to break Karelian front in order to reach critical railroad and road network which would have led them have a quick paced advance towards Helsinki, They attempted landfalls numerous times, attempted to bring heavy Naval artillery tro bear… List goes on and on.
Soviets themselves admitted that they tried to annex us, Russian Federation said the same.
Hi Fennica
Welcome on a board:)
You just have visited the wrong sites where all russian are inpolite:)
Finnish divisions had a number 12 500 men within them, meaning that they were smaller in size than Soviet ones.
We had very little in terms of military hardware, and what we had was obsolete. But we knew how to use them.
Really you know how to use it?
So why you lost the Mannergame line and Karelia finally:)
Finnish casualties are well documented and in every possible turn, fallen trooper was taken from the front and buried in home-cemetary. After the war, a book was published, which contained ALL lost in Winter War. In Finland, there is not Soviet-fashion of twisting facts and numbers.
I m not sure what do you mean exactly as the Soviet twisting facts, but contemporary russian archives figures pretty correct also.I i do not see the reasons not trust it.
Therefore we could just compare the figure - it should be very interesting.
FAF(Finnish Air Force) was a mesh of dozens of planes, all which were obsolete, or near it. The number 130 means Aircraft suitable for Combat operations, the larger is the entire air fleet.
But how do you explain the fact that after the war the fugures of the airplains of FAF was fully restored ?
And what about Churchill speech in Parliamen where he told that about 101 aurcraft was sended to the Filnand?
We got no help from the West, this is purely Soviet fabrication. Lots of sympathy, no help.
Really just the symphany.
I understand that the western help was very limited but is was’t symphaty:)
This is not good idea to deny the help even if you it seems too LESS for you:)
Britain sent 12 Hurricanes, but they arrived after the war and we had next to no means to keep them operational, plus FAF regarded Hurricane MK1 as poor performer and a clumbsy Fireball.
[quote]
Do you accidentally know the total figure of combat-ready aircrafts befor the Winter war in FAF?
Soviets kept their exact deathtoll as a secret, and we here know just what Soviet truth is. (I say this mening no offence at all, and from the heart; Finns take pride in telling the truth. We think that mans word is his honour. Thus, you can usually trust soldiers and Airmen telling the truth.)
[/quote]
There is no any secret in for historians today.And why do you think that finns are ONLY pride whan telling the rue:)
Do not you wish to say us that the ONLY finns has the absolute moral right to tel the true?
-After collapse of the Soviet Union, Finns gained access to some archives: It turned out that During WW2, Finns claimed shooting down 1807 Soviet aircraft and Soviets themselves have the number 1844. That is very close, and shows nicley our honesty.)
Согласно отчетам авиаполков, журналам боевых действий и ежедневным донесениям, за все время войны ВВС РККА потеряли 224 самолета сбитыми или совершившими вынужденные посадки за линией фронта. Еще 86 числятся пропавшими без вести и 181 проходит по графе «погибло и повреждено в авариях и катастрофах» (небоевые потери). Последней цифры мы пока касаться не будем, ибо ясно, что к этим потерям финская авиация никакого отношения не имеет. Боевые потери авиации Балтфлота составляли 17 машин, небоевые - 46. ВВС Северного флота закончили войну без потерь.
…
According the reports of air regiments- during the entire Winter compain the RKKA lost 224 aircraft shoted dowm, 86 were missed and 181 were lost during non-combat reasons ( damaged during landings and ets)
Besides the aviation of Baltic fleet lost 17+46= 63 aircraft.
Thus according the official military reports ( not propogandic materials for soviet press) the total figure of all Soviet aircrafts lost in Winter war was - 554.
But ONLY 327 of that were lost in battles.
But according the soviet report - they claimed thay shoted down about 362 finns aircraft. That as we know today is a wrong
So as we could see the “Finnish fary tells” is not better endeed than the Soviets ones:)
Just without injury OK?
Ask away; I know tons about this. And Yse, I must likely will post more on this subject.
Really you know how to use it?
So why you lost the Mannergame line and Karelia finally:)
Hmh. WE are still here, Soviet Union is not.
Against such a overwhelming odds, it is an accomplishment that Finland lived through all the Wars and is still here. Soviets had advantage on every single terms, so what they lacked was leadership.
I am not sure weather you are just ignorant, or really do know about Mannerheim line? It was not what Soviet propaganda made it to appear.
I m not sure what do you mean exactly as the Soviet twisting facts, but contemporary russian archives figures pretty correct also.I i do not see the reasons not trust it.
Therefore we could just compare the figure - it should be very interesting.
As of this date, there is no certain number of the Soviets lost in that war, simply because Soviets altered numbers to make it apper that they were doing fine. For example in Road Raattee, Soviets lost an entire division(div. 44) but as Soviet claimed that their losses were 200 men, they took that number of fallen and Finns buried the rest in the spring.
That is just that; we know our fallen, most of them rest in the burial grounds of their homes. That is our way.
But how do you explain the fact that after the war the fugures of the airplains of FAF was fully restored ?
And what about Churchill speech in Parliamen where he told that about 101 aurcraft was sended to the Filnand?
Finnish Defence Forces had more equipment to use in the end of the war, than in the beginning. Same thing repeated itself in the continuation War.
Curtiss Hawk 75, Brewster 239, FiatG-50bis, Morane Saulnier 406/410 fighters were bought during the war, but they arrived after it was over.
Fokker D21 and Fokker Twin Wasp interceptors could be built locally.
-You must understand that we used these airplanes throughout the wars. Every single aircraft has a number, and every loss is marked. We have a book about lost aircraft aswell.
Britain gave us 12 Hurricane MK1, and that’s it.
-Funds were aquired by the Finns themselves. Every single piece of valuable were given to support the war. Women gave their golden engagement rings (it was a custom, a man is no man if he can’t give even one piece of gold to his wife) and got iron rings as a replacement.
These days those iron rings of engagement are honored heirlooms.
Really just the symphany.
I understand that the western help was very limited but is was’t symphaty:)
This is not good idea to deny the help even if you it seems too LESS for you:)
I’d be amazed should you present any sources (apart Soviet) which would claim that Western Allied helped us. Swedish sent what they could, Germans had made a packt with the Soviet Union(Molotov-Ribbentrop), so they too looked in the sidelines and sold/gave nothing.
Italy was eager to condone Soviet actions and sent Rifles and ammo.
There is no any secret in for historians today.And why do you think that finns are ONLY pride whan telling the rue:)
Do not you wish to say us that the ONLY finns has the absolute moral right to tel the true?
Morality has little to do when one nation invades another in order to conquer it.
Soviets were eager to mark Winter War as a minor border Skirmish but it was a battle for survival for Finns. That is why things were marked down best we could.
Thus according the official military reports ( not propogandic materials for soviet press) the total figure of all Soviet aircrafts lost in Winter war was - 554.
But ONLY 327 of that were lost in battles.
But according the soviet report - they claimed thay shoted down about 362 finns aircraft. That as we know today is a wrong
So as we could see the “Finnish fary tells” is not better endeed than the Soviets ones:)
Just without injury OK?
If you’d be so kind and read again what I wrote there… During the Wars between SU and Finland. Both of them.
Oh this is very good.
Lets dig a bit your tonns:)
I fear that no matter what figures I present, no matter what I post, you dismiss it simply because Soviets wrote things down differently.
And as I don’t read kyrillic, and you can’t understand Finnish sources…
I’ll do my best to dig them up for you. Problem is that I am not too keen on driving all the way to Helsinki and back just to visit the archives!
There are pics, there is information uploaded in the net, but It will be hard to find an english site. You would not happen to be able to read in my language?
Who and when?
Molotov did, Stalin did, Hrutsev(spelling?) did, Yeltsin did. During the WW2, after it, after the collapse of the SU as the archives were opened.
Same kinds of talks we have here, are not the only ones. Best place for exact figures is the Axis Forum, as there the participants are also very keen on historical accuracy. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=59
But the big territories of Karelian as well and city Viborg is still Russian ? or aw i wrong?
You have won the war with USSR?:)
Against such a overwhelming odds, it is an accomplishment that Finland lived through all the Wars and is still here. Soviets had advantage on every single terms, so what they lacked was leadership.
But Russian are also still here on that lands:)
Even if we losed the Cold war ( not with Finland) but we still here:) and lived through all the wars alive:)
I am not sure weather you are just ignorant, or really do know about Mannerheim line? It was not what Soviet propaganda made it to appear.
No i/m nt ignorant, but it seems you a bit insolent:)
Now i do understand why you meeted oonly inpolite russians:)
I knew about weakness of Mannergaim line from the Russian ( Soviets for you) sources.
However you are forgot that there were a lot of the marshs and rivers- so this is the natural barier for the soviet tanks.
Karelian Fortified Region (KaUR) is a much stronger defensive installation. So, why the Soviet Army, more biggest and well equipped than Finns, marked time here in the course of two months of the winter of 1939-40? I think the strenght of the Mannerheim Line was first of all in the people who protected their native land just as the Russians were near to Moscow in the winter 1941. We have smashed the concrete pillboxes, but were not able to overcame the resistance of this fortress.
Sounds great but unfortinatelly this do not explain why the Stalin stoped the offensiev whan the finns were almost fully crushed finally.
Amd when Britain and France has began to develop the plans of bombing of the soviet oil field in Caucaus.
As of this date, there is no certain number of the Soviets lost in that war, simply because Soviets altered numbers to make it apper that they were doing fine.
Sorry but it seem you are little out of date themself:)
The USSR and the Soviets datas is already not existed. Instead the Russian datas of military archives is open for study today.
You are welcome for study it.
And pealse do not repeaet more about “Soviets datas”
For example in Road Raattee, Soviets lost an entire division(div. 44) but as Soviet claimed that their losses were 200 men, they took that number of fallen and Finns buried the rest in the spring.
That is just that; we know our fallen, most of them rest in the burial grounds of their homes. That is our way.
But why is youway also claime about 1800 shoted soviet aircraft :)?
If the Soviets datas comfirmed only 500+ lost:)
Finnish Defence Forces had more equipment to use in the end of the war, than in the beginning. Same thing repeated itself in the continuation War.
Curtiss Hawk 75, Brewster 239, FiatG-50bis, Morane Saulnier 406/410 fighters were bought during the war, but they arrived after it was over.
Fokker D21 and Fokker Twin Wasp interceptors could be built locally.
-You must understand that we used these airplanes throughout the wars. Every single aircraft has a number, and every loss is marked. We have a book about lost aircraft aswell.
Britain gave us 12 Hurricane MK1, and that’s it.
-Funds were aquired by the Finns themselves. Every single piece of valuable were given to support the war. Women gave their golden engagement rings (it was a custom, a man is no man if he can’t give even one piece of gold to his wife) and got iron rings as a replacement.
These days those iron rings of engagement are honored heirlooms.
What a great behaviour . My respect , really.
And do you know for instance that in that most moment the over 500 000 peoples of Leningrd perished from famine that creat the Nazy-Finnish troops byt supporting the blockade ring aroung the city?
Our russian peoples sacrificed for victory even their lives not just gold and money.
I’d be amazed should you present any sources (apart Soviet) which would claim that Western Allied helped us. Swedish sent what they could, Germans had made a packt with the Soviet Union(Molotov-Ribbentrop), so they too looked in the sidelines and sold/gave nothing.
Really the western Allies did not helped the finns?
And what about strong political pressure of possible military strike on the USSR?
And what about Tehrain conference where Churchil and Rusewelt have demanded from Stalin to save the Finlnd independent?
It seem you too proud to notice the help of other nation for you country:)
I do not know about value of military supplies and voluntaries fo the Finns i the 1940 , but there is no any doubt - it was essential.
Morality has little to do when one nation invades another in order to conquer it.
Soviets were eager to mark Winter War as a minor border Skirmish but it was a battle for survival for Finns. That is why things were marked down best we could.
Battle for survival?
hmmmn. But as i understand right the Poland, Baltic states and other - were fully distructed by the Soviets and its population were totally killed:)
Oh my god:)
The Finland alone has survived:)
If you’d be so kind and read again what I wrote there… During the Wars between SU and Finland. Both of them.
I fear that no matter what figures I present, no matter what I post, you dismiss it simply because Soviets wrote things down differently.
Again do not mix the soviets and Russian.
And as I don’t read kyrillic, and you can’t understand Finnish sources…
But i do understand the English and could read the British sources and Wiki:)
Egorka use the Norvay sources:)
But you still use ONLY finnish source- is it not seems for you strange?
You can give me the info in any language you have. I have Finnish colleagues and I can read swedish (it is the second official language in Finland as I understand).
But the scans should be in Russian, right? It is the Soviet maps you were talking about, was not it?
Molotov did, Stalin did, Hrutsev(spelling?) did, Yeltsin did. During the WW2, after it, after the collapse of the SU as the archives were opened.
Same kinds of talks we have here, are not the only ones. Best place for exact figures is the Axis Forum, as there the participants are also very keen on historical accuracy. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=59
And no, it is not a political place.
With all due respect, it will take me ages to find the quotes where some Soviet/Russian officials acknoledge that there was a plan to annex whole of Finland. Can you please point at the specific thread in that forum?
But the big territories of Karelian as well and city Viborg is still Russian ? or aw i wrong?
You have won the war with USSR?:)
I am of Karelian kin.
420 000 of my kin fled their lands and had to be settled into inner Finland, two times.
This was after grueling years of war, losses of life and territory, our Karelian capital Viipuri which was second largest city in Finland, and 300 billion $ payment to the side which started it all.
-So you kinda see why I am not smiling.
I am visiting our former lands this spring, to see the battlegrounds in Antrea. Through war Soviets gained the land, not the people.
But Russian are also still here on that lands:)
Even if we losed the Cold war ( not with Finland) but we still here:) and lived through all the wars alive:)
Soviets are not the same as Russians.
No i/m nt ignorant, but it seems you a bit insolent:)
Now i do understand why you meeted oonly inpolite russians:)
I knew about weakness of Mannergaim line from the Russian ( Soviets for you) sources.
However you are forgot that there were a lot of the marshs and rivers- so this is the natural barier for the soviet tanks.
Frustration more than insolent, I’d say, but in the net the moods are often in the sidelines. Conversation is hard through mere texts.
It was and is Finnish way to build using natural boundaries. Remeber that those marshes and swamps were frozen stiff. T-26 (6-ton Vickers) and T-28 easily venture over those. Soviets also tried to flank the Defensive line repeatedly across the frozen sea.
Sounds great but unfortinatelly this do not explain why the Stalin stoped the offensiev whan the finns were almost fully crushed finally.
Amd when Britain and France has began to develop the plans of bombing of the soviet oil field in Caucaus.
Not quite.
Several Soviet sources say that FDF capitulated, but that did not happen. Mannerheim urged govermant to accept whatever treaty they could get because men were near breaking point.(and ammo was in critical state)
Forgeiners often do not understand that Finnish forces had no chance to rest and re-inforce. Soviets kept the “steam Roller” coming and same men, same units defended day after night after day the same position.
Britain and France had no intention to help, but the threat of their participation along with the fact that Finns held positions convinced Stalin to halt the effort.
-British and French were keen to occupie Swedish iron ore Fields and gain more control in the Scandinavia. They had asked Sweden the permission to pass through her territory, and Finns had urged Sweden to allow Western Allies presence.
British and French forces would have arrived too late, if at all, anyway.
At that time Stalin talked with Otto Vill Kuusinen’s goverment, made from few Red Finns who had fled into the SU during our Civil War and managed to survive the Stalins purges.(yes, great many Red Finns were executed in the SU).
Stalin did not recognize the official Finnish goverment during Winter War.
Sorry but it seem you are little out of date themself:)
The USSR and the Soviets datas is already not existed. Instead the Russian datas of military archives is open for study today.
THere is no Russian information of the era, because it too was a part of the SU. Leading one, but still one of them.
You are welcome for study it.
Oh, I heard that the archives are once again declared closed?
And pealse do not repeaet more about “Soviets datas”
But why is youway also claime about 1800 shoted soviet aircraft :)?
If the Soviets datas comfirmed only 500+ lost:)
¤Sigh¤ Soviet aircraft shot down during the years of war between Finland and SU. I never said that 1844 shot down aircraft were solely from Winter War.
What a great behaviour . My respect , really.
It was, thank you.
I do know the things Soviets had to endure and overcome during the war-time. Wars bring out both the worst and best in people.
And do you know for instance that in that most moment the over 500 000 peoples of Leningrd perished from famine that creat the Nazy-Finnish troops byt supporting the blockade ring aroung the city?
Our russian peoples sacrificed for victory even their lives not just gold and money.
I am not sure why you do not know that Finns did not close the encirclement.
That was one reason why Soviet Union was willing to negotiate peace terms late in the war, and one good reason why there was no huge vendetta against Finns.
Finns did not complete the siege, Finnish bombers did not raid the city, Finnish artillery did not fire into the city. -Mannerheim was very specific about that.
Really the western Allies did not helped the finns?
And what about strong political pressure of possible military strike on the USSR?
SU was expelled from the League of Nations. THat’s it. Reasons behind the military threat was to get military presence to Scandinavia and control Baltic sea. Iron ore was the reason, Western Allies were not prepared to go into war against Soviet Union.
And what about Tehrain conference where Churchil and Rusewelt have demanded from Stalin to save the Finlnd independent?
It seem you too proud to notice the help of other nation for you country:)
I do not know about value of military supplies and voluntaries fo the Finns i the 1940 , but there is no any doubt - it was essential.
Stalin agreed then to keep himself from annexing Finland?? No, there are no such reports. He also agreed into so many other things he had no intentions to uphold. One of them was the Berlin matter.
For crying out loud, Britain was in a state of war against us then, all Allied apart from the U.S. were.
Tali-Ihantala was the place where we persuaded SU not to occupie. And Stalin was in a hurry to reach Berlin, so we were saved.
THere were quite few who gave military hardware in the 1940. Italy was actually the most generous, along with Sweden.
Battle for survival?
hmmmn. But as i understand right the Poland, Baltic states and other - were fully distructed by the Soviets and its population were totally killed:)
Oh my god:)
The Finland alone has survived:)
Poland was devastated, war passed several times over it. Baltic states were annexed and opinions, language, liberty was denied until 1990’s. They were occupied and only slowly recover from that. Also, there is problems with Russians who had moved there.
We held our independence, rights and republic rights. We have no Russian minorities, no heavy industrial pollution and high standard of living.
Again do not mix the soviets and Russian.
I don’t. Should I say it the third time; Soviet Union lost 1844 aircraft of various types in wars against the Republic of Finland.
But i do understand the English and could read the British sources and Wiki:)
Egorka use the Norvay sources:)
But you still use ONLY finnish source- is it not seems for you strange?
Thusfar, I have showed quite a few sites not originated from my country. Dot ru says in one of them…
It’s near four years I last time visited that place. Shocking how fast time goes…
You can give me the info in any language you have. I have Finnish colleagues and I can read swedish (it is the second official language in Finland as I understand).
But the scans should be in Russian, right? It is the Soviet maps you were talking about, was not it?
Yes, they were.
Also, I saw a document made by Russians themselves about that war… “winter war through Russian eyes” was the title in Finnish. They also had great sources in that doc. Might want to see it, it was a good one.
Heh, many Finns barely know how to read and write in swedish these days.
With all due respect, it will take me ages to find the quotes where some Soviet/Russian officials acknoledge that there was a plan to annex whole of Finland. Can you please point at the specific thread in that forum?
Oh, sorry. Just type keywords into the search. That’s how I use the place.
300 Bln???
Oh my god , but as i know the USSR demanded only 300 mln $
So who has recieved the rest 299 700 mln$ ?
BTW do not forget that being Nazy ally since the 1941-44 the FInland has avoided a disasters that survived the Ukraine , Russian and Belorusia.There were killed amillions of peoples- while finns enjoy the alliance with “victorious German Army”.They got the germans wearpon and food supplied while the SOviet citizents in Leningrad were getting the Bombs and Shells.
So i/m strongly doubt that 300 mln is equal payback for the soviets.
-So you kinda see why I am not smiling.
Why are you not smiling?
One of my grandfathers perished in this war , ( as other 20 mln of my countrymates) fighting with GErmans and its ally - does it mean i should not smile meeting one of Germans in forums?
I am visiting our former lands this spring, to see the battlegrounds in Antrea. Through war Soviets gained the land, not the people.
But why would soviet have gained your people?
The peoples of WEstern Karelia was removed in to the Finnish terirtory, right
Soviets are not the same as Russians.
Thats’ true. I/m glad if you realize it finally.
Frustration more than insolent, I’d say, but in the net the moods are often in the sidelines. Conversation is hard through mere texts.
That’s why i try to smile:)
The conversation is much easy if not take it so seriously.
It was and is Finnish way to build using natural boundaries. Remeber that those marshes and swamps were frozen stiff. T-26 (6-ton Vickers) and T-28 easily venture over those. Soviets also tried to flank the Defensive line repeatedly across the frozen sea.
But was it the frozen highways?
Not it was a taiga with the mine fields around. So i have no tend to underestimate the Mannergaim line indeed.
The Soviets did it in 1939 - we saw what’s happend, right
Several Soviet sources say that FDF capitulated, but that did not happen. Mannerheim urged govermant to accept whatever treaty they could get because men were near breaking point.(and ammo was in critical state)
Forgeiners often do not understand that Finnish forces had no chance to rest and re-inforce. Soviets kept the “steam Roller” coming and same men, same units defended day after night after day the same position.
So now do you agree that soviets almost won in 1940.The Mannergame line was finally teared and just Lucky chance saved the finns from total destruction. Or the pressure of teh Britains?
Britain and France had no intention to help, but the threat of their participation along with the fact that Finns held positions convinced Stalin to halt the effort.
Right, byt what method did they used?
They seriously prepeared the Bombing raids over soviet Caucaus, besided the France was ready to send the troops through Narvik.
-British and French were keen to occupie Swedish iron ore Fields and gain more control in the Scandinavia. They had asked Sweden the permission to pass through her territory, and Finns had urged Sweden to allow Western Allies presence.
British and French forces would have arrived too late, if at all, anyway.
Even if would be too late - this fact did not prevent the USSR from the war against Britain and France, right?
So do yo really think that Stalin was a maniac that want the Finland by all means?
The conflict with Britain was not in interest of USSR, therefor the British pressure was critical indeed.
I do not underestimate the Finnish bravery and ability for resist, but sorry, sometimes finns kill me by their romantic naivity.The “little finland beated the Soviet Galiaf”
If no the position of Great Britain and USA in 1943-44 - the Finland could be easy captured and sovetized in manner of East Europe If Stalin only wished it.
At that time Stalin talked with Otto Vill Kuusinen’s goverment, made from few Red Finns who had fled into the SU during our Civil War and managed to survive the Stalins purges.(yes, great many Red Finns were executed in the SU).
Good new- in the USSR also were executed many oh “heroes” of Civil war also ( who indeed was a bloody butchers).The finnish Red Heroes were not an exception.
THere is no Russian information of the era, because it too was a part of the SU. Leading one, but still one of them.
But it s a Russian archives that contain that information.There is no OTHER soviet archives in here.
BTW if you point right - we should ignore also and all of Germans archives coz they were a part of Nazy era, right?
Oh, I heard that the archives are once again declared closed?
Why it sould be declared closed once again?
For the somebody blamed the Russia of “hiding the documents” and let the rusophobs in all the world the good chance to invent the new “Great conspiracy theories about evill Russia/USSR”?
I hope you should understand that this is i interest of Russia to open those archives as much as it possible for study by professional historians.
Becouse only by such way we could learn the true and stop the pseudo-historian myths.
¤Sigh¤ Soviet aircraft shot down during the years of war between Finland and SU. I never said that 1844 shot down aircraft were solely from Winter War.
OK.
So could you pelase provide us the figures of shoted soviet aircrafts , claimed by finns during the just Winter war?
I am not sure why you do not know that Finns did not close the encirclement.
That was one reason why Soviet Union was willing to negotiate peace terms late in the war, and one good reason why there was no huge vendetta against Finns.
No Fennica.
They finns fully closed the encirclement of Leningrad in the west and north, but they did not continie the attack of city.( to the great vexation of Hitler).
Nevertheless they, being ally of Nazy - supported the blockade of Leningrade for a long time very well.
And certainly they share the responsibility for the high death-level in the city from famine.
…Finnish bombers did not raid the city, Finnish artillery did not fire into the city. -Mannerheim was very specific about that.
True.
But the Finland provided its airfields for the GErmans bombers and ports for the GErmans ship attacked the Leningrad.
SU was expelled from the League of Nations. THat’s it. Reasons behind the military threat was to get military presence to Scandinavia and control Baltic sea. Iron ore was the reason, Western Allies were not prepared to go into war against Soviet Union.
As i know the reason was to move the border from a Leningrad coz the soviet have no illusions toward friendship with Finland.
If the new war would be started the Finland anyway should join at the anti-soviat coalition.Thus the Leningrad has been under threat.
Stalin agreed then to keep himself from annexing Finland?? No, there are no such reports.
Yes there is one very importaint. it sadly that you did not read attentively my previous posts.
The Winston Churchill in his memours “World War 2” wrote about conference in Tehrain.
He with Rooswelt discussed the Finns problem and has get the guaranties from Stalin - that USSR would hold from annextion of Finland after the war . Stalin fully agree on the certain conditions ( repatriations, borders of the 1940 Moscow threat and ets… see above blue color).
Those conditions were admitted by the finland- therefore Stalin have no right to violate the allies agreements.
He also agreed into so many other things he had no intentions to uphold. One of them was the Berlin matter.
In Berlin there were no any violations- according the Allies-soviets agreement Berlin should be included into Soviet Zone of occupation
For crying out loud, Britain was in a state of war against us then, all Allied apart from the U.S. were.
Tali-Ihantala was the place where we persuaded SU not to occupie. And Stalin was in a hurry to reach Berlin, so we were saved.
Not so merely.
If Stalin really was hurry to reach the Berlin - he could attack it already in the end of 1944.
The strategy of Stalin was not to beat the GErmany but to capture the East Europe.He turned the troops to the Balcans and Romania( to the great vexation of Churchill:))
He was enoug pragmatical - not to have the illusions about Western Europe, He was aimed to the restore the soviet influence Eastern Europe and Balcans.
He wanted to involve the allies in fight in Western Europe, meanwhile he “liberated” the Eastern.
Besides there were a conferences of allies wher the each side had the agreements of Zone of influences.
BTW if the Chehoslovakia was liberated AFTER the downfall of BErlin in 10-15 may of 1945.
So the Sovet relation to the Finland had no common with hurry to reach BErlin.
COz finally Red Army has reached all the zones that was defined by the allies agreements.
Jesh, you are right about my typo. Should I change it in the previous one, or keep it intact so that you’d have a valid reason for the upward response? You could have just said:“you got it wrong, 300 million, not billion.” And I would have been just as happy about it.
Aaaand 'ere we go again. Finland was no ally to Germany. feel free to re-check that one.
We got neither weapons nor desperatly needed Grain for free. Finns did not start the whole wars, but still we had to endure both the loss of land and reparations to the aggressors.
Why are you not smiling?
One of my grandfathers perished in this war , ( as other 20 mln of my countrymates) fighting with GErmans and its ally - does it mean i should not smile meeting one of Germans in forums?
Both of mine fought through the wars. I do not smile because of the losses we had to bear in the hands of the SU. You do understand.
But why would soviet have gained your people?
The peoples of WEstern Karelia was removed in to the Finnish terirtory, right
Exiled actually. No-one wanted to be part of SU. You shrug it off as a minor amount of people, but we were 4,2 million then, and how large proprtion 420 000 is from that? See what I mean?
Thats’ true. I/m glad if you realize it finally.
I have stated that so many times already, but happy that you read it now.
That’s why i try to smile:)
The conversation is much easy if not take it so seriously.
Well, we usually do not smile when talk about our wars.
But was it the frozen highways?
Not it was a taiga with the mine fields around. So i have no tend to underestimate the Mannergaim line indeed.
The Soviets did it in 1939 - we saw what’s happend, right
Frozen highways? Do you mean the roads Soviet engineers laid in front of the advances?
See, our High Command knew fully well that Soviets were coming, but were astonished that they came in such lengths and from so many places. We were ill-prepared for that. Soviets built makeshift roads in the woods to get military columns through heavy woodlands.
Only place which had mines installed was the Isthmus itself. North of Lake Laatokka(Ladoga) had next to no preparations made.
So now do you agree that soviets almost won in 1940.The Mannergame line was finally teared and just Lucky chance saved the finns from total destruction. Or the pressure of teh Britains?
Mannerheim line had caved in from several places, but Northern attacks had been repelled. Situation was desperate in the Karelian Isthmus and even today it is still a big “what if”.
Either Mannerheim would have been forced to pull the positions backwards in order to buy time and get re-organized, or the front would have collapsed. It is a fact that men were at breaking point.
Right, byt what method did they used?
They seriously prepeared the Bombing raids over soviet Caucaus, besided the France was ready to send the troops through Narvik.
Actually they were planning to claim Narvik as their own… What good would have French and British troops have when it would have already been too late.
Later, Germans invaded Norway to secure ore transports. All about the ore. Hmh, Soviets themselves were hungry after our Nickel mines in the North.
Even if would be too late - this fact did not prevent the USSR from the war against Britain and France, right?
The mere threat gave us the chance. Stalin did not want a war against Western Allies, but neither did the Allies afford the war against SU. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=65494
These people have also talked about the matter.
So do yo really think that Stalin was a maniac that want the Finland by all means?
Well, he did invade with 1/3 of the entire Red Army. Desire was there, as was willingness for the completion of the annexation.
The era 1940-1941 is called interim peace here, for Finns knew full well that more wars were ahead. SU meddled with our internal matters, German troops were moving into the North, and Soviets were in the Hanko and new border-line.
The conflict with Britain was not in interest of USSR, therefor the British pressure was critical indeed.
Agreed.
I do not underestimate the Finnish bravery and ability for resist, but sorry, sometimes finns kill me by their romantic naivity.The “little finland beated the Soviet Galiaf”
I am not sure why. There were only these two sides in arms.
If no the position of Great Britain and USA in 1943-44 - the Finland could be easy captured and sovetized in manner of East Europe If Stalin only wished it.
Tali-Ihantala. That is where three Soviet armies were stopped. And as Stalin was in a hurry to reach Berlin, he could not afford the long campaign in the North. So, peace was negotiated and troops were transferred to the push to Berlin.
THere was zero influence from Western Alliance.
Good new- in the USSR also were executed many oh “heroes” of Civil war also ( who indeed was a bloody butchers).The finnish Red Heroes were not an exception.
In the era, Red Finns were seen as a liability and a possible threat, which often meant an execution. Can’t really call them heroes, though. Apart of course that though they lost, the rights they fought for were installed after Finnish Civil War.
But it s a Russian archives that contain that information.There is no OTHER soviet archives in here.
BTW if you point right - we should ignore also and all of Germans archives coz they were a part of Nazy era, right?
Sigh, Right. Look, the best way to get decent numbers lost and killed is to compare the numbers from both sources.
The problem with old Soviet archives have been that the numbers have been “maked up.” Sometimes adding 30 downed Me-109 fighters into kill-rosters by Soviets(we did not have them then) [that example I have seen in an oldie book, should back it up, but it’s a finnish book about FAF so I am sceptical weather it has been published in any other language]
, sometimes pilots saw planes going down not realizing that they were not destroyed and/or were fully restored.
Why it sould be declared closed once again?
I dunno, that is why asked weather that rumour was true.
For the somebody blamed the Russia of “hiding the documents” and let the rusophobs in all the world the good chance to invent the new “Great conspiracy theories about evill Russia/USSR”?
I hope you should understand that this is i interest of Russia to open those archives as much as it possible for study by professional historians.
Becouse only by such way we could learn the true and stop the pseudo-historian myths.
Could not agree more.
OK.
So could you pelase provide us the figures of shoted soviet aircrafts , claimed by finns during the just Winter war?
Hold on…
The FAF flew an estimated total of 5 900 combat missions (6 300 combat flight hours) during the Winter War, from which 3 900 were interception missions, 800 bombing runs, 70 recon (aerial photograph) and 1100 other.
The Swedish volunteer unit flew an additional 600 flight hours (all flights included) .
The FAF consumed approximately 2 100 tons of aviation fuel (the biggest consumption was in February nearly 830 000 liters) , 850 000 rounds and 208 tons of bombs.
In whole, FAF claimed 190 confirmed kills, 143 bombers, 37 fighters and 10 reconnaissance planes, and nearly 100 probable.
The Finnish plane losses were 62 destroyed (including 11 FR, 17 GL, 7 FK, 5 RI and 12 BL) and 35 planes damaged.
From the losses, 47 were downed by the Soviet forces. The Soviet fighters shot down 35 planes, the Soviet AA-fire 8 planes and 4 for unknown reasons (the figures include the losses suffered by the Swedish voluntary unit and the planes lost while in transit to Finland) .
In the flight units, 77 men (41 officers, 33 NCO's, 1 private) were either killed in action (KIA) or missing in action (MIA) .
No Fennica.
They finns fully closed the encirclement of Leningrad in the west and north, but they did not continie the attack of city.( to the great vexation of Hitler).
Nevertheless they, being ally of Nazy - supported the blockade of Leningrade for a long time very well.
And certainly they share the responsibility for the high death-level in the city from famine.
Utter false. This matter has been adressed around the net, and every time Finns have shown that no, we did not close the siege.
Didn’t I post links to similar claims from Russians? Did you skimmed it through?
-And should you keep claiming that, consider this;
after Winter War, the Defences from Soviet side in the Isthmus were even more re-inforced. The battlements were deep and strong, and would have required the combined strength of the entire Finnish field army to punch through, and with extremenly heavy losses.
True.
But the Finland provided its airfields for the GErmans bombers and ports for the GErmans ship attacked the Leningrad.
Yes, that is true.
Although German Kriegesmarine could not really bombard the city, as defenders, while tied into the ports, had more than enough firepower to keep Germans from lagre naval assaults.
As i know the reason was to move the border from a Leningrad coz the soviet have no illusions toward friendship with Finland.
If the new war would be started the Finland anyway should join at the anti-soviat coalition.Thus the Leningrad has been under threat.
That we can’t agree on. Ever. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57368
Yes there is one very importaint. it sadly that you did not read attentively my previous posts.
The Winston Churchill in his memours “World War 2” wrote about conference in Tehrain.
He with Rooswelt discussed the Finns problem and has get the guaranties from Stalin - that USSR would hold from annextion of Finland after the war . Stalin fully agree on the certain conditions ( repatriations, borders of the 1940 Moscow threat and ets… see above blue color).
Those conditions were admitted by the finland- therefore Stalin have no right to violate the allies agreements.
Amm, Stalin violated every condition which he saw fit. Why was this any different? And could you give a link on that , I’d like to read about it aswell.
In Berlin there were no any violations- according the Allies-soviets agreement Berlin should be included into Soviet Zone of occupation
And Stalin said that he was in no hurry to reach Berlin?
Not so merely.
If Stalin really was hurry to reach the Berlin - he could attack it already in the end of 1944.
The strategy of Stalin was not to beat the GErmany but to capture the East Europe.He turned the troops to the Balcans and Romania( to the great vexation of Churchill:))
He was enoug pragmatical - not to have the illusions about Western Europe, He was aimed to the restore the soviet influence Eastern Europe and Balcans.
He wanted to involve the allies in fight in Western Europe, meanwhile he “liberated” the Eastern.
Besides there were a conferences of allies wher the each side had the agreements of Zone of influences.
BTW if the Chehoslovakia was liberated AFTER the downfall of BErlin in 10-15 may of 1945.
So the Sovet relation to the Finland had no common with hurry to reach BErlin.
COz finally Red Army has reached all the zones that was defined by the allies agreements.
Allied in the West sprung into a hurry when they realized what the Red Army was doing. Stalin had two generals run a race to reach Berlin. Already then it was apparent that there was little alliance between West and the East.
We simply disagree here.
How is that Stalin did as Western Allied demanded by launching an immence assault against us?
