The Tiger tank

A gallery of the early Tiger II with the earl Porsche turm.

The first 90 Tiger ausf B used the turret designed for the Typ 180 (porsche proposal for a 65 tons tank)
This is one of the first series pictured in the test grounds of Kummersdof in april 1944. The radio operator MG is still not in place.

Fortal view of the tank above, note the 2 apertures for the binocular gunsight Turmzielfenrohr 9/b1 above the drives s head and the aditional spare track over the turret. The tank had a fine patterned zimmerit coating.

A close up to the TZF 9/B1 this was manufactured by Enst Leitz the same firm wich designed the famous Leica camera, the magnification a fixed in 2,5X. Note the rain cover.

Tiger II (porsche turret) of the Replacement and test heavy armored battalion 500th, France, March 1944. This was a operational training unit and was mostly used for ironing the teeting troubles of the Tiger II… troubles that in the practice were never completely solved. (profile by Peter Sarson)

EXPLODING A FEW MYTHS ABOUT WORLD WAR II ARMOR

By Stephen ‘Cookie’ Sewell
Museum Ordnance Magazine
September 1993

Sitting at a table on behalf of The Ordnance Museum Foundation, Inc., here at Aberdeen Proving Ground on Armed Forces Day 1993, I noticed that a great number of people are believers in myths that surround the German Army of World War II. Many of the people who stopped by had a number of negative comments about the perceived “lack of interest” by the museum in their favorite German tanks and the reasons they were so significant. (It must be noted that the charter of the ordnance Museum is to preserve the history of the development of American ordnance and armored vehicles, and to include significant foreign developments where possible.)

I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who is credited with the quote. “It is easy to defeat a lie with the truth; it is much harder to kill a myth.” Of the many comments that were made to us about the mythology surrounding the German armored vehicles, I would like to address certain issues from other points of view in this short article.

Myth #1
The Greatest Tank of the Second
World War was the Tiger I.

Oh? Why? Maybe the best KNOWN overall, and the most notorious, but far from the greatest. This tank was designed as a 30-ton tank (later upgraded to 45 tons) but still came in between 56
and 62 tons; it was underpowered and poorly suited for any kind of mobility battle. Tanks are weapons of the offensive; this tank was not equipped for that type of warfare (remember Blitzkrieg?), nor was it well suited for “cornfield meets” at 500 meters or less.

The Russians were very respectful of the Tiger, but they were also under no illusions as to its combat potential. Their tactics - charge until you are inside the 500-meter range where the T-34’s 76mm gun could penetrate the sides or rear of the Tiger - were born out of the desperation of having many more tanks than the enemy but with a less powerful cannon (until 1943) that forced them to adapt. Once the T-34/85 and the IS series of tanks appeared, the Tiger was treated as the dinosaur that it was.

Tanks like the Tiger were designed to combat tanks like the Soviet KV series. Were it not for the KV, it is doubtful the Tiger, as we know it, would have ever developed.

Myth #2
The Panther was the Best All Around
Tank of the Second World War.

Strike Two. The Panther only came about because the German leadership suffered a bout of “NIH” syndrome (Not Invented Here) and ignored the pleas of commanders like Guderian to simply reverse-engineer and adapt the T-34 for German production. As a result, it had a higher silhouette than any Soviet tank, a gasoline engine, and a very weak running gear system that plagued the tank during its combat career.

To give the Panther its due, it carried the hardest hitting 75mm gun of the Second World War; this weapon contributed heavily to French thinking after the war and was the basic weapon chosen to be developed into the 75mm autoloader cannon in the EBR 75 and AMX 13. Its armor was thicker than the T-34 and the Sherman, but it was not well designed; D and A models had a marvelous shot-trap beneath the mantlet that was used to ricochet AP shells down into the thin roof where they would kill the driver and bow gunner.

Reliability was poor - the vehicle was not noted for its ability to conduct long road marches, and the Soviets enjoyed the fact that they could not get captured models to make a simple 200-kilometer road march without breakdown. This was partially due to the poor suspension design (interleaved road wheels) and partially to the conditions under which the tank was used. This tank was also over its targeted weight limit and to the Soviets was a joke - a medium tank that weighed only one ton less than their heavy tanks and did not have the mobility, reliability, or overall useful firepower of the IS-2.

Tanks excel based on balance: the Panther had superior firepower, good armor protection, and poor mobility. That’s not balance.

Myth #3
The Tiger II was the Most Influential
Tank of the Second World War.

On what and by who? The Tiger II was a desperate design of overkill that combined the design of the Panther with the concept of the Tiger and wound up with a 68-ton tank that had the worst deployability of any tank of the war (one has to keep things like bridges and roads in mind when designing tanks!!).

If the Tiger II was so influential, then what was its legacy? Surely no tanks were designed to copy its features. It used the classic German balanced layout of transmission front-engine rear which all other countries ditched for either cross drive or “guitar” transverse engine and transmission layouts. It used massive weight of armor for protection which only added to its troubles; being “Sherman-proof” from the front does you no good if you can’t catch the little devils.

The Tiger II was also a victim of the late war German economy. It had no real reliability due to the fact that its rubber-hubbed wheels tended to flex under load and, placing uneven strain on the tracks, tended to snap links at the hinges. Like the Tiger I before it, this is a desperation defensive weapon that did not give them advantages.

Finally, even the Soviets had no fear of this tank. The first one they encountered in combat during 1944 was immediately knocked out by a T-34/85; the Soviets made capital over the fact that one of Porsche’s sons was the commander of the vehicle and was killed instantly by the shell. (They felt at the time he was most responsible for the Tiger series; it was only after the war when the captured the Nibelungenwerke that they found out Edward Anders of Henschel had more to do with heavy tanks design than Ferdinand Porsche.)

A far more influential tank of the war was the Soviet IS-3; this inspired much more Cold War mythos of its own and was directly responsible for a number of US and foreign designs, as well as the US Ml03 and British Conqueror programs to defeat it on postulated European battlefied

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Apart from the fact the TII had steel road wheels with internal rubber tyres (copied from Russian models)Cookie Sewell is famous as a denigrater of all things German. Some of his reviews of German plastic kits are hilarious as he does not even have the most basic grasp of the proper names or types of German armour.

http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/german/dml6220reviewcs_1.html

The killing ratio I ve posted is a example wich liked or not happen several times in the wartime period, specially in the Eastern Front.

Tanks like the Tiger were designed to combat tanks like the Soviet KV series. Were it not for the KV, it is doubtful the Tiger, as we know it, would have ever developed.

Actually the Tiger is designed to engage AT guns and artillery being the sperarhead of the panzers advance, for unlikely it might sound wasnt designed to counter the new russians tanks since it comes from a specification of may 1941, time in wich the germans wasnt aware of the T-34 or the KV, the appereabce of those rushed the production of the heavy panzer however.

Then if SOME Tigers got high scores then MOST Tigers did not get any.
The Eastern Front ‘kill ratios’ are not official confirmed kills but simple crew claims.
Remember that all claims were halved when they were collated and thus EVERY SINGLE Tiger Unit claim is out by at least 50% in 1944-45.
In the East we have no firm figures for Soviet losses so we get the 10:1 ratios.
In the West we can check the claims against known losses - thus we get a less than 2:1 exchange ratios.
There is some new info coming out on Russian losses.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=124380&highlight=

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=104100&highlight=

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25189&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I dont dispute that figures, but…Panther, I am talking about the Panther, this is the Panther topic man :rolleyes:

The tiger have his devoted topic, also in this section.

Panther,Tiger II or PzIV. It does not matter what make of tank. There is a known total of Allied tank losses divided up between them. The overall ratio was at best 2:1. If you have some types getting 5:1 upwards then it follows that there will be a great number of tanks that did not get any kills at all.
The stories about 5:1 Sherman losses have no basis in reality. It did not happen.

Actually does matter, the combat efficience of the Pz IV , Tiger II and the Panther arent the same.

For example in Afrika the Tiger 1 ( off-topic here ;)) achieved a kill ratio of 25-1, unmatched by any other AFV, allied or german.

If you in the going to include in the Western front after june 1944 the losses of Panthers knocked out by artillery and ( more important) by Aircrafts, obiously the figure would never be 5-1, but…

It is a fair comparative?

Dont think so, in Falaise more than 100 Panthers were destroyed by the RAF, those panzers cant shot a single round to the allied armor.

I see that real figures for destroyed Allied tanks seem not to dent this uber-panzer myth.
There is not any evidence whatsoever that supports a 25:1 kill rate. It is simply uncritical acceptance of German claims. You want to exclude all German tanks knocked out by artillery but I bet you don’t want to exclude the Allied tanks hit by German artillery. Allied tanks suffered greatly from German minefields but I bet you don’t want to exclude them from the Allied total either.
Sorry but there is simply no basis for any claim of 5:1 kill ratios against Shermans or any other Allied tank. Less than 2:1 is the best you can get.

Some get off on the whole German Army of WW ll was the baddest army in the world thing. When in fact there early victories were against antiquated and unprepaired countries and Armys.
Once everyone cought their breath, the world gave them an education.
Of course we knocked hell out of them with airpower,Artillery and armor just like they did those countries they attacked with virtually no means of defending themselves.If others are right then we whipped hell out of them despite the superior equipment some say they had. In reallity they lost because their equipment was ill fitted to the task it was designed for and their stratigy was the worst in modern history.
The western allies had massive amounts of armor at the end of the war and so did the soviets - The Germans didn’t because we turned their armor into coffins for millions of German troops as they became the EX-Baddest army in the world.

Cavalry Gunner
Wally

smart light bulb.bmp (8.38 KB)

I see that real figures for destroyed Allied tanks seem not to dent this uber-panzer myth.
There is not any evidence whatsoever that supports a 25:1 kill rate. It is simply uncritical acceptance of German claims. You want to exclude all German tanks knocked out by artillery but I bet you don’t want to exclude the Allied tanks hit by German artillery. Allied tanks suffered greatly from German minefields but I bet you don’t want to exclude them from the Allied total either.
Sorry but there is simply no basis for any claim of 5:1 kill ratios against Shermans or any other Allied tank. Less than 2:1 is the best you can get

My dear Kenny , you can elaborate the figures in the way you like, but to be completely objetive you need to exclude those panzers and allied armor with were destroyed by other that tanks, I know is difficult and probably the info is not 100% reliable but you ll be closer to the truth, and the truth is more than 2:1.

The 25:1 figure I gave to you for the Tiger battling is africa is completely true, if you dont believe me do some personal research and you ll see.

Off course in the Early year of the war 1939-1941 the Panzer havent the technical advantage and suffered heavily on the allied tanks specially in the Eastern Front, there is examples of KVs shooting 10 or 20 Panzer before being destroyed by desperate means. You can read more in the russian military section.

Some get off on the whole German Army of WW ll was the baddest army in the world thing. When in fact there early victories were against antiquated and unprepaired countries and Armys.
Once everyone cought their breath, the world gave them an education.
Of course we knocked hell out of them with airpower,Artillery and armor just like they did those countries they attacked with virtually no means of defending themselves

Really ? France and UK had 3400 tanks against 2335 german panzer in May 1940. No to mention the most of the French armor was superior, the german army had 155,678 casualties invading France, no walk in the park. The superior Armor was defeted by better german tactics and a fantastic liason with the Luftwaffe.

And that is also a reason of the Big german defeats of 1944, the Luftwaffe was very weak compared with the early years.

I have, extensively. It isn’t true.
Perhaps you can give me a referenced (i.e. not simple German claims) example where these high scores were obtained?

Germany’s TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; Thomas L Jentz

Villers was an attack by sSSPzAbt.101. Wittmann was not on his own so the ‘kills’ have to be divided up between all the German tanks. The trouble begins when every single British casualty is attributed to Wittmann- no other German tank hit anything?

Here is a Tiger tank just minutes after it bumped into some Shermans-note the new crew.

These were not all casualities on the Allied side in Villers Bocage that day. I don’t know if or to what extent the combat report is true, neither do you, but to the best of my knowledge it actually was wittmann and his crew, who made those kills as they indeed entered the town alone. You still seem to be hung up on the X:Y thing, however.
And what do you want to prove with the pictures?
It actually looks like the tank was abandoned, there are some dents in the hull and frontal armor, but I can’t see a penetration.

I think I already posted this but here is a lot of info about the Wittman exploits.

http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_vil.asp

And so was everything else.

Although production rose, the whole system was falling apart

Nick , I agree with almost your entire post, you might ad to the picture the problem of the fuel, for example the Tiger supporting the advance of the infamous “kampfgruppe Peiper” have no fuel trucks following it, they must capture his own supply on route…ridiculous.

Interesting video in wich one of the survivors of Villers Bocage talk about his encounter with Michael Witmanns Tiger.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=fnUAYDKMePg

I have made mistakes before and this one was preety stupid i had no idea a upgraded panzer 4 with a 88 adn heavy armor was a tiger…never knew that…huh

Wow PZ i know the germans had a tank kill rate superiority but 25:1 this is simple German propoganda;)
Well i/m agree the famouse Witteman’s crew could hit about 25 allies tanks and armored veshicles befor going to devil ( be killed) but i doubt this was the average resault in the Western front.
If to believe the Nazy propoganda they destructed all the soviet tanks three-five times in the Eastern front. But as we know the soviets still had a few T-34 after battle of Berlin :slight_smile:
The awerage kill ratio was probably 2-3:1 against the hard Tiger 1/2 (55/67 tonns) and mediun Sharman(30 tonns) and probably 2:1 againsth the T-34-85 (34 tonns).
The 47-tonns Panther had a simular rasault i think but not rather better.
So your “sucking for the superior of german wearponry” is no more permissible here;)
Just kidding…

Cheers.

The Tiger II was actully less effective in combat than Tiger I because his poor engine reliability, just some figures of the Tiger I in the Eastern Front.

I have made mistakes before and this one was preety stupid i had no idea a upgraded panzer 4 with a 88 adn heavy armor was a tiger…never knew that…huh

:D:D, an provocative teory if you asking me. :rolleyes: