The Ukrainian Insurgent Army

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#21

Судьба причудлива и, думаю, слепа.
Фамилия на “ов”, но воевал в УПА.
Привел меня туда авантюризм.
Но подарил мне правильную жизнь.

Безумный случай - и потом леса.
Топор опасности угрюмо нависал.
Сначала любопытство, а потом
походы долгие. Сходило семь потов.

Навеки я запомнил голый склон
и серый камень. Защищал лишь он.
Тупая мысль стучала у виска –
не допустить гранатного броска.

Мой озверевший пулемет строчил,
а я терял остатки жалких сил –
ведь мне шестнадцать, хочется пожить.
Гранаты взрыв - и оборвется нить.

Но милостив ко мне был добрый Бог.
Он выскользнуть из западни помог.
Заход к нам в тыл бездарно прогорел.
Жаль, пулемет остался на горе.

Наш четовой за это не ругал.
И даже буркнул: “Мал хоть, но удал”.
Один мой подвиг был на той войне.
Но страшный склон годами снится мне.

И я не знаю как его прогнать,
восстановить спокойной жизни гладь.
Ведь я себя за Родину губил.
Не на себя я тратил бездну сил.
Пускай моя фамилия на “ов”,
но я услышал Украины зов.

I have nothing against the use of your mother languaje in the forum but since this debates always get hot so I need to moderate EVERYONE and I am not familiar with cirylic…please use english here Kato.

#22

Chevan :
“So you please do not tell us about the goal to destroy the ONLY UPA.
Indeed the forces that used the Bach-zelewski was directed against whole partisan movenment in the Belorussia, Ukraine, and Russia.
The UPA just used the situation and captured the some of the areas simply due to the germans had no enougt strength in the Volun areas.”

Are you blind man? I posted information about hostilities in Volyn. There was no other partisans but fighters from UPA who confronted Germans.

"Oh really… sory i did not know the picture of murdered polish women and children were the “Stalin’s propoganda”

В 2003 г., во время упоминавшейся годовщины “Волынской резни”, президент Польши Александр Квасьневский счел необходимым заметить, что нельзя огульно обвинять подразделения УПА в этнических чистках против поляков. По его мнению, было бы правильнее говорить только о конкретных виновниках тех или иных преступлений, а солдаты УПА сражались за независимость Украины в рядах организации, которая по праву занимает героическое место в исторической памяти украинцев.
Brief translation
In 2003 Polish president Alexander Kwasnevski stated that one can’t accuse OUN-UPA of ethnic cleansing against Poles. He claimed that the soldiers of OUN-UPA fought for sovreign and independent Ukraine and deserve to be remembered as heroes by all Ukrainians.

I would like to add that similar statements were made by plenty of other Polish high-ranked officials and intellectuals. Unlike you Chevan nearly all Poles ( except some Polish chauvinists) accept the fact that both sides of the Ukrainian-Polish conflict were involved in mass murders of civilians.
One does not need to go far. Here on the forum ( http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4677&page=2) a forum participant from Poland Kovalski wrote:

“The open polish-ukrainian conflict which erupted during ww2 had two faces: Polish and Ukrainian.
I would like to avoid the answer for question: who started it, who commited first atrocities, because its pointless in my opinion. It doesn’t matter right now.
Some may say that Poles started to murder Ukrainians, and Ukrainians had to answer that, other will say that it was started inversly: Ukrainians murdered Poles first and that’s why Poles started to murder Ukrainians in revenge.
As I said: It doesn’t matter right now. iThe massacre in Western Ukraine was of mutual character.”

The most striking thing about the Polish-Ukrainian squaring accounts in the 1940s that ordinary Ukrainian civilians killed civilian Poles and ordinary Polish inhabitants killed civilian Ukrainians whenever there was an opportunity to do so. There was simply no need in any participation of UPA units in this carnage.

Chevan from Russia is anxious to impose an opinion that the events in western Ukraine was a one-sided terror and slander UPA. Actually his opinion about UPA and events in Volyn are not even shared by many Polish chauvinists who were OUN-UPA’s arch enemies. It is typically Soviet and now Russian tradition to paint one side black and slander it if it doesn’t
fit their ideological schemes on history ignoring all evident things.

#23

Oh this famous Soviet statistics. But the figures presented by dear Chevan contradict even Soviet statistics.

О крупных масштабах боевых действий в этом регионе свидетельствуют данные о боевых потерях с обеих сторон. Так, согласно справке НКВД УССР, подписанной заместителем наркома Т. Строкачем, который курировал западные области, с февраля 1944 г. до октября 1945 г. Красная Армия и войска НКВД провели 26685 боевых операций против ОУН и УПА. За это время были убиты 98 846 повстанцев и подпольщиков, взяты в плен либо арестованы 104990 человек. Были, конечно, потери и с другой стороны. Как указано в справке, погибли 9621 красноармейцев и сотрудников HКВД, ранены 1343 и пропали без вести 2456 человек. И это всего за 20 месяцев.

The passage contains information based on a report signed by the deputy of narkom of NKVD in Ukraine about casualties on both sides of the conflict since February 1944 till October 1945. It says that 98 846 OUN-UPA fighters were killed in severe clashes with NKVD troops and 104990 were arrested as people suspected in belogning to OUN-UPA. The losses of NKVD were stated as: 9621 NKVD soldiers and officers killed, 1343 wounded and 2456 missing in action. And it is only within 20 months. Considering a wonderful feature of Soviet statistics to decrease the losses of Soviet troops ( For instance it is a well-known fact that the number of losses of the Red Army during World War II was cut by the Soviet statistics several times. It was done to save the reputation of wise Soviet leaders). So it is logical to believe that even these figures that show the losses of NKVD troops were much lower than they were in reality.

As to Ukrainians killed by OUN-UPA for collaborating with NKVD they were people who squelled on other civilian Ukrainians who helped nationalists. The activities of such people working for NKVD and their “loyalty to Soviets” meant death and tortures for all those who sympathised OUN-UPA and members of their families that is 99% of local Ukrainian population.

“did not wish to participate in the civil war in the side of UPA.”

OUN-UPA never lacked volonteers as it has always enjoyed people’s support in the areas where they operated. They didn’t have to force anyone to join UPA as first of all a partisan army under those conditions would have been defeated in a weak if there had been fighters who were forced to combat against Soviet troops and secondly the number of people who volonteered to joined UPA was always higher then the capacity of OUN to arm and equip them.

#24

This is a perversion again. Your words “attacked some of germans groups of soldiers for the getting the wearpon and food i.e simply grabed them” can be applied to Soviet partisan as well.

“This is bullshit” … (Chevan)

What bullshit? You want to say that Soviet partisans didn’t attack Germans and didn’t grab German weapons, food, and ammunition? And I thought there was an order 1941 issued for the Red Army to collect German weapons and ammunitions on battle fields.

#25

Chevan: “Wrong there were a lot of native ukrainians among the soviet partisan who aslo fought agains the Germans.
And the soviet partisans did NEVER lead the brutal ethnic murdering of the woman and children.”

Chevan, do you read my posts or not? I didn’t say there were no Ukrainians among the soviet partisan in the areas that belong to the Soviet Union since 1920s. Soviet communists used their partisans to oppose the spead of OUN-UPA influences on these territories. With Germans and Poles attacking OUN-UPA basis and networks in the West of Ukraine the spread of OUN-UPA over the Eastern and Southern Ukraine was made impossible and communists managed to preserve control over local partisan movement. So there was no alternative to the communists and Germans in these regions.

#26

The number of Ukrainians killed by NKVD troops n 1940s and 1950s. is enormous. Of course Soviet version of history and now the Russian one kept silent about at least 200000 civilian Ukrainians who were tortured to death in NKVD prisons during questionings. They were women and children under 14 whose fault was that their father or brother was a partisan in UPA as well as massive deportation of the ukrainian youth to prevent them from joining UPA. Official Soviet/Russian history doesn’t want to admit the fact that Soviet authorities organized gangs, dressed them like UPA fighters and send them to massacre Ukrainian villages in order to shift the guilt on the ukrainian insurgents and undermine their popularity in the region.

#27

Oh really without foreign help they attacked the soviets int he 1945-53?
This is not true again.
The Jaroslav Stezco ( who was so damn lucky to run away to the Canada after the WW2) sponsored the UPA terrorists action

Can you specify how did he manage to sponsor UPA? Take a map. All the neighbouring countries were under Soviet control and belonged to the Soviet socialistic camp. They were full of Soviet troops. The governments of Poland and Chekoslovakia signed a treaty with the USSR aimed at destroying OUN-UPA. It implied tough control over borders and it was impossible to smuggle weapons or something through several state frontiers to Ukraine in principle. Running out of all old stores of weapons and ammunition was one of the main reasons why the war was over.

#28

This is a nonsens
The ethnic clerising WERE SANCTIONED BY THE UPA leaders like Bendera and Stezco.
as we have seen from the posts above the Bendera wrote the about killing the poles in the western ukraine.
BTW the president-nationalist Kwasnevskiy could tell what ever he want (according the current political aims) to justify the ukraininas fascist-nationalsis.
But yo do not tell the every poles should supporting this

http://piats.com.ua/print.php?type=N&item_id=11
На одной из центральных площадей Варшавы пытаются соорудить памятник «жертвам УПА». Даже поляки считают такой монумент жутковатым.
Архитектоника памятника такова: на пятиметровом бронзовом дереве с крыльями вместо кроны будут прибиты гвоздями детские трупики. Автор этого ужасающего кошмара не кто иной, как метр польской скульптуры Мариан Конечны. Не только польская, но и украинская общественность знают его как ученика легендарного Ксаверия Дуниковского. Талантливый юноша, казалось бы, полностью оправдал надежды учителя. Он – автор прославленной варшавской «Ники», памятника освобождению Ченстоховы. Долгое время пан Конечны возглавлял известную в мире Краковскую академию искусств. В биографии выпускника института имени Репина, что в Ленинграде, - и авторство давно демонтированного памятника Ленину в Новой Гуте…
За сооружение памятника жертвам УПА уже взялся специально созданный комитет.
Кстати, сам автор концепции считает ее оправданной и уместной. Он сообщил журналисту «Газеты выборной» Михалу Войтчуку, что идею памятника почерпнул из фотографии 1943-1944 годов, которая якобы сделана в селе Козова Тернопольской области. Как нетрудно догадаться, пану Мариану предложил фото Ян Невиньски, который возглавляет общепольский комитет по построению памятника жертвам ОУН-УПА Кресового патриотического движения. Этот господин утверждает, что именно на Тернопольщине в годы войны он пострадал от украинских патриотов. «Только что-то такое, что вселяет дикий ужас, может сегодня привлечь внимание людей, - убежден Ян Невиньски.- Никто не реагирует, когда в Украине ставят памятники преступникам УПА, не вызывают резонанса заявления Всемирного конгресса украинцев, которые требуют от Польши компенсаций за операцию «Висла». Невиньски убежден, что жертвы Волынского преступления заслуживают, чтобы их увековечили в центре Варшавы. По данным Михала Войтчука, к этому в столице некоторые отнеслись позитивно, в том числе и отдел общественной эстетики городского управления Варшавы.

So i would not to say the Kwasnewski expressed the entire oppinion the poles;)

I would like to add that similar statements were made by plenty of other Polish high-ranked officials and intellectuals. Unlike you Chevan nearly all Poles ( except some Polish chauvinists) accept the fact that both sides of the Ukrainian-Polish conflict were involved in mass murders of civilians.
One does not need to go far. Here on the forum ( http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4677&page=2) a forum participant from Poland Kovalski wrote:

“The open polish-ukrainian conflict which erupted during ww2 had two faces: Polish and Ukrainian.
I would like to avoid the answer for question: who started it, who commited first atrocities, because its pointless in my opinion. It doesn’t matter right now.
Some may say that Poles started to murder Ukrainians, and Ukrainians had to answer that, other will say that it was started inversly: Ukrainians murdered Poles first and that’s why Poles started to murder Ukrainians in revenge.
As I said: It doesn’t matter right now. iThe massacre in Western Ukraine was of mutual character.”

That’s right Kovalski simply trued to be the objective and neitral.
I/m understand his point.
But you has bagan the new thread “Operation Visla” where you blamed the poles in the mass violations of the rights of the ukraininas,right.
So you are the simply the finished “Ukrainian chauvinists” is you ignore the mass murdering of the poles in the western Ukraine.
I have to say the operation Visla in this way was the best solution of the problem. the poles had stopped the bloody civil war by this action.Withaut mass execution ( like it inevitably did the UPA in the case of Nazy victory in the war)

Chevan from Russia is anxious to impose an opinion that the events in western Ukraine was a one-sided terror and slander UPA. Actually his opinion about UPA and events in Volyn are not even shared by many Polish chauvinists who were OUN-UPA’s arch enemies. It is typically Soviet and now Russian tradition to paint one side black and slander it if it doesn’t
fit their ideological schemes on history ignoring all evident things.

Am i understand you right - the 'evident historical things" is the methods that UPA used for its political goals?
I say you more…
The your glorification of the UPA-OUN as the “fighters for the freedom” by the ethnic terror is the first step toward the justification of Fascism.
Actualy the sir Hitler was not so bad guy - he like and UPA “heroes” also cared about ethnic clearness of the Europe, right;)

#29

good infor Kato
So why did you calculate the figures of perished Ukainians for the terror of UPA?

As to Ukrainians killed by OUN-UPA for collaborating with NKVD they were people who squelled on other civilian Ukrainians who helped nationalists.
The activities of such people working for NKVD and their “loyalty to Soviets” meant death and tortures for all those who sympathised OUN-UPA and members of their families that is 99% of local Ukrainian population.

Oh reaaly the UPA killed the only Ukrainians who helped NKVD?
So why they killed the members of its families: woman and children - for the profilactic?
This look like the work of Gestapo;)

OUN-UPA never lacked volonteers as it has always enjoyed people’s support in the areas where they operated. They didn’t have to force anyone to join UPA as first of all a partisan army under those conditions would be defeated in a weak if there were fighters who were forced to combat against Soviet troops and secondly the number of people who volonteered to joined UPA was always higher then the capacity of OUN to arm and equip them.

This is nonsence…
According the testimoties of the judged UPA members ( btw some of them still alive) the UPA

Отчёт с судебного процесса.
(Вступительное слово)

В селе Красное около Буска, уезд Каменка Струмилова, воеводство тарнопольское, в местном Доме Культуры с октября по декабрь 1969 года состоялся открытый судебный процесс над группой националистических бандитов – членов бандеровского отряда СБ (служба безопасности), который выполнял репрессивные функции, а также занимался массовым уничтожением гражданского населения. На скамье подсудимых сидели пятеро бандеровцев: Владимир Олийнык (кличка «Голодомор»), Андрей Мороз (кличка «Байрак»), Павел Чучман (кличка «Бенито»), Стефан Чучман (кличка «Берёза»), и Леон Поцилуйко (кличка «Яструб»). Боивка СБ краевого ОУН (OUN) (Организации Украинских Националистов) под руководством Д. Купяка (кличка «Славко Веслар» и «Клей»), в 1944 – 45 годах убила более двухсот человек , преимущественно безоружных женщин, детей и стариков. Значительное их количество замучил и расстрелял сам Купяк «Клей». Кроме того, они сожгли более десяти сёл с тысячами построек.
…
Показания подсудимого Андрея Мороза: «В Западной части Украины кроме местных были также отряды СБ, непосредственно подчиняющиеся ОУН (OUN). Эти отряды совершали самые жестокие убийства людей. Отряд Купяка был именно таким отрядом. В нашем отряде все видели, что Купяк застрелил братьев Поцилуйко, Петра и Михала, за то, что хотели убежать из его отряда».
http://anti-orange-ua.com.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1094&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40
Trnaslation:
Statements of the defendant of Andrey Moroz: “In the Western part of the Ukraine besides local were also the forces the SB ( the special safety unit of UPA bands ), thet are directly subordinated BY OUN . The forces they accomplished the most severe murders of people. The force Of Kupyak was precisely such force. In our force all saw that Kupyak shot down brothers Potsiluyko, Peter and Mikhala, for the fact that they wanted to run away from his unit”.

So you please do not tell us about "only volunteers’ in UPA.
Thsi si the tupacal situation if the any band - there is no way back.
BTW this matter was getting from a ukrainina site forum;)

#30

No the soviets also attacked the germans for the wearpon and food, but the main goal of Soviet was the fight with germans.
The main goal of the UPA was the fight with civilians poles in this moment.
Feel the difference;)

… Soviet communists used their partisans to oppose the spead of OUN-UPA influences on these territories. With Germans and Poles attacking OUN-UPA basis and networks in the West of Ukraine the spread of OUN-UPA over the Eastern and Southern Ukraine was made impossible and communists managed to preserve control over local partisan movement. So there was no alternative to the communists and Germans in these regions.

Well actually the UPA had no or a unsignificant control over the central, eastern and Southern territories firstly coz the UPA was not popular among the most of population. Not becouse the soviet partisan resisted it.
So you right in this way the UPA was purely western Ukraininas nationalistic organisation that was not sanctioned to express the whole ukrainina will.

The number of Ukrainians killed by NKVD troops n 1940s and 1950s. is enormous. Of course Soviet version of history and now the Russian one kept silent about at least 200000 civilian Ukrainians who were tortured to death in NKVD prisons during questionings. They were women and children under 14 whose fault was that their father or brother was a partisan in UPA as well as massive deportation of the ukrainian youth to prevent them from joining UPA. Official Soviet/Russian history doesn’t want to admit the fact that Soviet authorities organized gangs, dressed them like UPA fighters and send them to massacre Ukrainian villages in order to shift the guilt on the ukrainian insurgents and undermine their popularity in the region

200 000 of Ukraines killed by NKVD is lie that was invented to justify the own UPA-OUN ethnic clearising.
True , the methods of NKVD was not a much more human but the tortured to death 14 the members of families of UPA- this is fascist propoganda.
The members were deported to the Syberia ( what’s a stupid humanism;)) but WERE NOT SHOTED/ The after war Poland also deported the manies from UPA families.
BTW the victims of ONLY polish population during the massacre of 1943-44 by the UPA is over 200 000 mens ( that where the 200 000 is true) But some of historian tells about 500 000 of civilians - real ethnic henocide like Nazy did.
But as we know the “Ethnic program” of UPA leaders was not far from the Nazy;)

Can you specify how did he manage to sponsor UPA? Take a map. All the neighbouring countries were under Soviet control and belonged to the Soviet socialistic camp. They were full of Soviet troops. The governments of Poland and Chekoslovakia signed a treaty with the USSR aimed at destroying OUN-UPA. It implied tough control over borders and it was impossible to smuggle weapons or something through several state frontiers to Ukraine in principle. Running out of all old stores of weapons and ammunition was one of the main reasons why the war was over.

Well i think the money that could easy be sended to the Ukraine is also a good support for the bandits.
BTW the main reason of stopping the bloody civils war was not as the sortage of the wearpon and ammunition as the failure of supporting the UPA among the Ukrainians ( and the some of effective actions of NKVD)

#31

No the soviets also attacked the germans for the wearpon and food, but the main goal of Soviet was the fight with germans.
The main goal of the UPA was the fight with civilians poles in this moment.
Feel the difference;)

… Soviet communists used their partisans to oppose the spead of OUN-UPA influences on these territories. With Germans and Poles attacking OUN-UPA basis and networks in the West of Ukraine the spread of OUN-UPA over the Eastern and Southern Ukraine was made impossible and communists managed to preserve control over local partisan movement. So there was no alternative to the communists and Germans in these regions.

Well actually the UPA had no or a unsignificant control over the central, eastern and Southern territories firstly coz the UPA was not popular among the most of population. Not becouse the soviet partisan resisted it.
So you right in this way the UPA was purely western Ukraininas nationalistic organisation that was not sanctioned to express the whole ukrainina will.

The number of Ukrainians killed by NKVD troops n 1940s and 1950s. is enormous. Of course Soviet version of history and now the Russian one kept silent about at least 200000 civilian Ukrainians who were tortured to death in NKVD prisons during questionings. They were women and children under 14 whose fault was that their father or brother was a partisan in UPA as well as massive deportation of the ukrainian youth to prevent them from joining UPA. Official Soviet/Russian history doesn’t want to admit the fact that Soviet authorities organized gangs, dressed them like UPA fighters and send them to massacre Ukrainian villages in order to shift the guilt on the ukrainian insurgents and undermine their popularity in the region

200 000 of Ukraines killed by NKVD is lie that was invented to justify the own UPA-OUN ethnic clearising.
True , the methods of NKVD was not a much more human but the tortured to death 14 the members of families of UPA- this is fascist propoganda.
The members were deported to the Syberia ( what’s a stupid humanism;)) but WERE NOT SHOTED/ The after war Poland also deported the manies from UPA families.
BTW the victims of ONLY polish population during the massacre of 1943-44 by the UPA is over 200 000 mens ( that where the 200 000 is true) But some of historian tells about 500 000 of civilians - real ethnic henocide like Nazy did.
But as we know the “Ethnic program” of UPA leaders was not far from the Nazy;)

Can you specify how did he manage to sponsor UPA? Take a map. All the neighbouring countries were under Soviet control and belonged to the Soviet socialistic camp. They were full of Soviet troops. The governments of Poland and Chekoslovakia signed a treaty with the USSR aimed at destroying OUN-UPA. It implied tough control over borders and it was impossible to smuggle weapons or something through several state frontiers to Ukraine in principle. Running out of all old stores of weapons and ammunition was one of the main reasons why the war was over.

Well i do not thing the money that could easy be sended to the Ukraine is also a good support for the bandits.
BTW the main reason of stopping the bloody civils war was not as the sortage of the wearpon and ammunition as the failure of supporting the UPA among the Ukrainians ( and the some of effective actions of NKVD)

#32

A little bit more of “soviet propoganda” for Kato.
About the attempts of the contemporary nationalostic forces in Ukraine to present UPA as the “heroes”
Ukrainian historian Vitalij Maslovskij wrote abook about UPA ( 1999) and soon he was found dead in his entrance.

http://www.ukrstor.com/oun-upa/maslovskij-vse.html#2

Додамо до цього два цікавих застереження авторів-неукраїнців. Один із найавторитетніших у середовищі українських націоналістів-дослідників минулого, автор відомої книжки “Український націоналізм”, американський “радянолог” й “українолог” Д. Армстронг констатує, що ОУН виникла з “терористичних напівфашистських організацій” - УВО (Української військової організації) і Союзу української націоналістичноннї молоді під керівництвом Д.Донцова.[1]

Французький публіцист та історик Аллен Герен характеризує ОУН як організацію “пронімецької і профашистської орієнтеції”, яка в міру зростання стала “фашистською організацією” не тільки політично, але й ідейно.
…

Хто був творцем “інтегрального” націоналізму фашистського типу
Його витворив Дмитро Донцов (Шелкопьоров), син херсонського землевласника і торговця хлібом, росіянин за походженням та водночас ідеолог українського войовничого націоналізму.

Мітька Шелкопьоров так був перейнятий ворожістю до Росії та росіян, що надовго заразив галицьких націоналів, хоч для цього в Галичині не було особливих підстав. І водночас “москаль” Шелкопьоров став речником українського націоналізму і шовінізму, так божевільно пройнятого русофобством. Чи не парадокс?

So as we could see the western historians in the ukraine field D.Armstrong (USA) and A.Geren (France) if defene teh UPA as the pro-nazy organisation that had a simular race ideology.

#33

True , the methods of NKVD was not a much more human but the tortured to death 14 the members of families of UPA- this is fascist propoganda.
The members were deported to the Syberia ( what’s a stupid humanism) but WERE NOT SHOTED/ The after war Poland also deported the manies from UPA families.

Man you lie when you say that the members of families of UPA fighters were not tortured and a lot of them wasn’t executed. NKVD was a punitive kind of organization. One of the biggest in the world’s history. It was responsible for setting up and operating all the concentaration camps of the Soviet GULAG. In the 1930-1950s many millions of the Soviet citizerns were arrested and executed or sent to the concentration camps by NKVD. These poor humans were not the people who fought against the Soviet regime with arms. In the absolute majority of cases they were quite loyal to the Soviets and had no stamnia or even thoughts to harm the government in any way. It was enough to say some anecdotes about the Communist party and its leaders or simply didn’t show sufficient zeal for demonstrating one’s loyalty to the party like squealling, glorifying communists and participating in the different activities organised by the Soviet Communist Party. One of the popular reasons used by NKVD to arrest or even execute such people was their origin. If a person had some relatives or friends who were noblemen or had some business before communists’ coming into power or simply received one’s education in the tsar Russia he or she would have autamatically turned into a candidate for
imprisomment or execution. They were called people’s enemies and were either executed or died in the Soviet concentration camps. So if the relatives of these civilian people who were either massacred during the civil war 1917-1921 or managed to escape abroad were executed or died in the Soviet concentration camps you may just imagine what was done to the relatives of the people who waged real war against NKVD and Soviet government

#34

He he he Kato
You now simply mixing all the anti-soviet propoganda in one post.
it seems you have nothing to say.
So you use the all of the propogandic myths about a “millions killed in GULAG”.
Unfortinatelly you did not read the other thread in this forum where the datas form the russian NKVD/KGB archives has come to the surface so you really do not know he statistic - you use only the propogandic clishes.
You a great mistake that you simply tryed to justify the responsibility for the UPA atriocoties by the Soviet terror- this is old propogandic focus of Nazy( that was later rised during the Cold war in the west).
As it was showed in my post the ethnic atrocities of the UPA was determined no the NKVD/Soviet/Polish atrocities to the the ukraininas but the pro-nazy ideology of the UPA command.
The manies of historians ( including the western) indeed are not doubt in this.
And your position is simply pointless in this way- you simply use the new nationalist ukrainian propoganda on political purposes.

#35

200 000 of Ukrainian civilians killed by NKVD in their campaign against banderovtsi is a minimal number . Ethnic cleansings in the west of Ukraine were conducted only by NKVD. Since the 1990s hundreds of mass graves have been found near the locations of NKVD troops and Soviet prisons in Western Ukraine during 1944 -1950s. The remaints disintered mainly belonged to children under 14 and women.
The expertises showed that the human remaints had the signs of tortures. Many skeletons had their hands tied together with barbed wire. The number of all Ukrainians both UPA militants and civilians killed by NKVD only in their campaign agains UPA is far beyond 500000 not to mention those deported many of whom died in new lands due to harsh climate conditions and lack of nearly all necessities.

#36

According to Chevan “millions killed in GULAG” is a propagandic myth. He dares to claim that NKVD didn’t commit atrocities. It is very much the same as to say that millions killed in the German concentration camps is a propagandic myth. And so why should one wonder that he slanders Ukrainians, Russians and many other nationals from OUN-UPA who fought against the Soviets after the World War.

#37

Polish president Kwasnevskiy is a leader of Social-democratic Party of Poland and a former communist. Chevan is ready to slander everyone. And how is it possible Polish nationalists claim that Polish-Ukrainian violence was of mutual character and OUN-UPA is not responsible for it and such Russian “anti-fashists” try to convince us that it was fault of OUN?

#38

Well i do not thing the money that could easy be sended to the Ukraine is also a good support for the bandits.

Man why are you playing a fool? How could money from Canada be easily sent to Soviet Ukraine? By post? None of ordinary citizerns in the Soviet Union
were allowed to receive money from abroad. And what would they do with money in the USSR where even food during the war and some years after it was distibuted through the system of cards on food-stuffs? Or perhaps you suggest that OUN-UPA fighters could buy weapons and all the necessities from NKVD for cash? You are simply running out of your imagination.

#39

Chevan expresses regret that not all the wives and children of men involved in UPA activites were massacred. Chevan, are you a mentally sick butcher and maniac?

#40

Excuse me for cutting in. I am not possesing much knowledge on the subject discussed. So just a question…

Kato wrote:
In the 1930-1950s many millions of the Soviet citizerns were arrested and executed or sent to the concentration camps by NKVD.
.
.
.
They were called people’s enemies and were either executed or died in the Soviet concentration camps.

Kato, in your opinion, how many people were arrested during these years and how many of them were executed? Just roughly.