Indeed. There have been one minor and two major industrialised wars - the US Civil War being the minor one, and the two world wars being the major ones.
In all three, they were won when one army (the Army of the Potomac, British Expeditionary Force and the Red Army respectively) wore down and destroyed the main strength of the enemy’s army through battles of attrition.
All three commanders (Grant, Haig and Zhukov et al) were accused at the time and subsequently of being butchers, but all three achieved what no other general of their time could do. They destroyed the main strength of the enemy’s forces and in doing so won the war.
I couldn’t agree more. While there is little question that Stalin’s regime was criminal in many respects by any standard of humanity, to minimize the sacrifice of the Soviet people is equally callous. The Soviets did produce food stuffs, but I think some here are only countering Chevan’s nationalist bluster with bluster of their own and failing to see things in the proper context. The US provided the USSR with foodstuffs because the breadbasket of the Soviet Union, the Ukraine, was already under Heer occupation. It’s citizens were being starved to feed “greater Germany.” This cannot be laid at even Stalin’s or Beria’s feet, for all their bastardy.
Zhukov had to fight within a strict set of political boundaries much like the German generals did in regards to Hitler, probably even more stringently so. He even had to put up with rival paramilitaries like the NKVD and commissar pricks trying to vie for control and seeking to undermine the apolitical military authority of the Red Army. If those Soviet commanders had not suffered the casualties of their men while backed by Western production, then we in the Anglo-American alliance surely would have. And since we didn’t have too – we should be thankful.
Glory to the Red Army…
Aye aye, to the Reds… May their vodka be strong…
Easy to see a “policy of attrition” as “correct” when you yourself are not one of the poor sods that have to enact it…That was a comment from far away too! (Ha! Ha!)
Maclellan could easily have achieved Grant’s objectives, but he did not have Bill Sherman advancing in concert, to tie down reserves and prevent rail transfers of troops, a-la Chickamauga.
I agree with you about Doug Haig…attrition was national policy on both sides, and the Central Powers were punch drunk by the end of the “Kaiserschlact”…
Russia remains the only belligerent to systematically eliminate more of it’s own people than the enemy, both in peace and in war, and to justify this policy by the very fact that they were on the winning side. Without a Soviet Leadership with a completely cavalier attitude to their own losses, their “victory” would have been nothing more than barbarism. Funny how we ditched our glorious allies soon after we had finished using them to fight attrition, something we ourselves could not bring ourselves to do.
Modern Russia is a morally bankrupt and incompetant administrative entity to this very day…not much changes in an ultra conservative society. I do not mourn the passing of “The Paradise of Workers and Peasants”, and I hope modern Russians will wake up to this as well.
Am I missing something? Does the picture actually show anyone being shot ? The only one I’ve seen shows a German armed with a pistol on a KV 1 turret.
And neither had the advantage of tactical intelligence that the South enjoyed during most of the War. When they didn’t, well, just see Gettysburg as an example…
Well, I’m not sure, but I think I saw this series of photos in which a Soviet tanker was pulled out alive, with his hands up. So I think Chevan had a bit of an inference based meltdown here…
The problem is that the russian armies treated ALL civilian populations this way and all militaries considered “enemy” polish home army was being massacred, hell even UPA its ukrainian equivalent was being burnt in barns or shot en masse when they stopped being usefull.
Actually no, NKVD carried out criminal executions mostly but these were quite orderly, it is the common russian citizen ( or comrade ) thats responsible for the most disgusting heinous acts.
Such behaviour was a rule, in fact it was far rarer to find a “civilized” russian unit than to land in the midst of the horde of savage animals, there were a lot of reasons for that and it’d require an entire new thread to ponder on the “why”, its not as simple as "Germans screwed us over so now we screw them, and everyone in between. "
That was the least of the worries of occupied people.
Yes with typical russian imaginative approach they shot soldiers, often not the perpetrators just random soldiers blaimed for it as an “example” and then done nothing.
Tell my why american or british armies, french and polish forces didnt rape, heck the Poles had as many reasons to hate Germans as the Russians did yet when the polish army took back its lands or entered Germany you didnt hear about rapes and murders.
Scale makes all the difference, especially if its your mother/sister/fiancee/wife.
Me is nationalist:)?
You man don’t probably even have not suspected that from about 4 million of soviet POWs survived less then 1,5 millions till the 1945.
So befor the write a bul…t about Germans Humanism toward the Soviets soldiers just read a bit history.
While i will not be arsed to look for the tank case : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
Oh that’t nice ,you changed the concept again:)
Now about Soviet Crimes.
Educate yourself, i can provide dozens of links to russian atrocities against german POW’s, lets make it clear, Red Army was inhuman in its treatment of both civilians and soldiers, rapes, murders and barbaric uncivilzed behaviour was common against all people whether those “liberated” or Germans.
From the point of view of anyone non-russian there was nothing noble about the Red Army or the russian nation of the war period, the barbarism of russians is well documented and the only thing that they were better than Germans was that usually they didnt plan wholesale extinction just local genocides and random acts of barbarism.
Now it’s all clear for me.
You just a fa…ng rusophobian who indeed don’t even care to hide its feels behind the Anti-Soviets.
The most of you “well documented” evidences come from Goebbels.
You son, can ignore whatever you want.
But just not claim the evidence of NAzy brutality toward soviet POWs is the Russian NAtionalism:)
But you have not seen the tankers have been pulled out alive in THAT photo, right?
And we speaks about concrete photo.Where the GErmans blowed up the vehicles where probably still the wounded member of crew were?
BTW Nick this is good thread you started.
May be this is true , and the Germans weren’t so brutal with Soviets pows, jews and civilians?
If everyone is talking about the picture in Nick’s post at #12, what’s all the fuss about?
It’s a picture of a tank and a couple of cautious but fairly relaxed looking German soldiers standing on its turret and looking at the camera.
I don’t see anything that suggests anyone is being executed.
I do see a couple of AP holes in the turret which suggest that there mightn’t be anyone inside left alive to execute.
You absolutly right , this Nick’s photo is played.
We speaks about the other photos where the germans blowed up with grenade the soviet armored car where supposely could be the wounded members of crew.
Some of members here try to prove that this is a legitime war behaviour to drop the grenade at the stoped tank to check is there somebody alive or not…
I think those people should not be surprised of Soviet brutality in 1945.
The problem with armoured vehicles is that if they appear more or less intact from the outside, you can’t tell whether they’re capable of resuming action. From an infantry point of view, if the crew hasn’t emerged it makes sense to make sure they won’t resume action.
Not all that different from common American and Australian, and possibly British, practice of shooting dead and apparently dead and wounded Japanese after action, as a result of apparently dead and wounded Japanese detonating grenades, shooting, or knifing Allied troops who approached them after action.
Whether it’s right or wrong, fair or unfair, just or unjust doesn’t really matter when it’s your life or theirs.
Am I missing something? Does the picture actually show anyone being shot ? The only one I’ve seen shows a German armed with a pistol on a KV 1 turret.
The picture that spurned all this is in the KV-2 thread, posted by Digger. It shows a German soldier throwing a grenade (I think) into a BA, with a KV-2 in the background.
Thanks.
I understand the discussion better now.
The slung rifles on the soldiers suggest that it’s not during an infantry battle they’re engaged in.
The KV-2 main gun appears to have just fired in the first photo. If so, it’s hardly an execution of wounded crew but a bloody good action by the foot soldiers in front of a still active armoured vehicle.
First of all its spelled humane and yes Germans were usually quite humane towards russian prisoners of war and prisoners of war in general, the casualities you forward are mostly from russian sources, Grayson for example gives a figure of approximately 2 milion russian dead, he underlines that more than 80% of casulalities were caused by the german inability to adequately feed and house these men rather than delibarate action, matter of fact Germans were far more humane towards captured soldiers than the Soviets.
Chevan, everyone who doesnt conform to your “russian pride” is “rusophobic” the fact is that you’re a limited nationalist who desperately tries to defend his country.
Russia’s name in WW2 is tarnished by unspeakable crimes only slightly less serious to these of Germany and soviet barbarism is well documented not by “Goebbels” but by countries like Poland, Baltic Republics, Hungary, Romania … source materials are abundant so it doesnt matter how many accusations you make, facts are facts.
Except we have the documents (from the German archives) which demonstrated that the Germans knew before they started the war that they would be unable to feed both their own troops, PoWs and the civilian population from the food supplies already in Russia.
They decided - BEFORE launching Barbarossa - that the Russian prisoners and civilians were to be starved to death to reduce the logistical problems of the German army and so keep the attack moving.
Hence, this was a premeditated war crime. The German failure to feed and house the PoWs was done deliberately with the intent of killing them to make the task of the German army easier - and most likely with the secondary intent of reducing population of Untermenschen…
Except we have the documents (from the German archives) which demonstrated that the Germans knew before they started the war that they would be unable to feed both their own troops, PoWs and the civilian population from the food supplies already in Russia.
They decided - BEFORE launching Barbarossa - that the Russian prisoners and civilians were to be starved to death to reduce the logistical problems of the German army and so keep the attack moving.Hence, this was a premeditated war crime. The German failure to feed and house the PoWs was done deliberately with the intent of killing them to make the task of the German army easier - and most likely with the secondary intent of reducing population of Untermenschen…
It had always been the German nazi´s intention to reduce the population of the untermenschen, but except for the jews, they didn´t seem to have a plan. Think the POW´s fate hang on a cost/benefit analysis as far as the Nazi leadership was concerned. Apart from things like shooting anybody that could fall under the category “irregulars” (all not wearing issued uniforms fx.), the German army treated the Soviet´s POW´s as POW´s more than something they tried to exterminate, as far as I´ve gathered.
“Between October 1943 and the summer 1944 the retreating German armies in the east evacuated more than 400000 people from the combat zone for work in Germany” -Adam Tooze
Or kidnapping if you will. The same goes for POW´s by this time. If they could work they were worth keeping alive.
You son, can ignore whatever you want.
But just not claim the evidence of NAzy brutality toward soviet POWs is the Russian NAtionalism
Never did! And I can´t fathom why you think I did! I claim that you are a nationalist based on what I´ve been reading in many threads here. I have no idea how you can see yourself as anything but nationalistic. Does the word “nationalist” have any meaning to you? (And forget the question if you´ve invented a meaning for the word that nobody but you can understand).
Me is nationalist?
If there ever was one!