Like the Ukrainians starved to death in the Holomodor?
Holodomor?Why not?
Good idea Nick.
Mate the Holodomore wasn’t the ethnical terror- it was a common policy in the Whole USSR in the beginning of the 1930. Not only in Ukraine.
The victims of Holodomor among the all ethnical groups- i could yeasy provet it for you
Look http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5346
However the reason of such great death rate in Ukrain was the RESAULT of policy own Ukrainians Communists and Personaly , ardent ukrainizator, the chairman OF SNK OF UKRAINIAN SSR Chubar who signed the special inhuman decision “fight with the sabotage”. ( tha key law that forbid any selling and importing the food to the Ukraine from the oher regions).
So in the prospect if the Ukrainians want to join the Holodomore to the definition of Holocaus- i’m absolutly agree they have full right for this. The Policy of Local Communists in Ukraine clear proved - they hated the own Ukrainians.
But unfortinatelly Nick i have to say that this is juct unfounded dream- do know why?
Coz the jews knowing the fact that the Communist of the Jewish origin who controlled the Soviet Comparty and whole communist Soviet gov at that time WERE RESPONSIBLE for the such unhuman policy of collectivisation.
Thus any connection of Ukrainian Holodomor with Holocaust is the nathing but DEMAGOGY that WOULD inevitably have the ONLY anti-semitic sense and nagitave resaults for the Jewish community.
Becouse the any Historian’s commission that would investigate the Policy of Bolshevics during the 1920-early 1930 would inevitable discovered the staff of the Bolshevic gov- and should declared its families…And everybody could convince - who was responsible in gov except Stalin ( certainly not only him)
This WE ALL know it was a lovely famouse method of Nazy race-hate propoganda - to connect the Holodomore, GULAG and other Bolshevics crimes with the Ethnical origin of Bolshevic leaders.
Do not be a naive Nick;)
P.S.How do you think guys , is the ethnical origin of the Bolshevc leader forbidden theme in the Britain schools?
Other genocides…
6 million is the accepted number of Jews, and others, killed in the Holocaust.
However.
Bosnia
a three year war (with some ethnic cleansing) between 250,000 and 300,000.
Rwanda (1st War)
a 100 day killing spree during 1994 (mainly with machete) between 800,000 and 1,000,000. 500,000 of which were Tutsis.
Berundi
Civil war (1993 to 2006) 300,000 killed.
Congo
First civil war (1996 - 1997) over 100,000 killed, 60,000 in one Armies slow advance through the country.
Second civil war (1998 - 2003) 3,500,000 - 4,400,000 killed (some by malnutriion and diesase rather than direct action.
Khmer Rouge
Set upon the Vietnamise population of Cambodia (400,000) late '60s.
during the same timve frame the civil war (which went on in to the '70s) took 600,000 and 1,000,000 lives (not including the Vietnamese).
During it’s reign of Cambodia anything up to 3,000,000 (generally accepted as 1.5 million.
A motto from the reign “To keep you is no benefit, to lose you is no loss” in relation to the population.
It was once of the most deadliest regimes in the history of the world (when you compare the population of only 7.5 million (est) at the time.
Stalinist Russia.
Under Uncle Joe, the Russians have specific numbers of some 3,000,000 killed by the State (in records). 800,000 executed, 1,700,000 died in the Gulags and a further 400,000 in forced relocations
I think all the holocausts/ massacres like those above deserve his recordation, this is not in conflict with teaching the holocaust history.:roll:
Guys,
How come you do not see that 6 million is a symbolic number, not a real one.
It is a number that fits to the Judaic tradition. The number of victims was adjusted to fit this tradition.
Regardless of the exact figure. it’s inescapable that the Nazis had the most to do with adjusting the numbers towards six million.
And let’s not forget the first modern genocide, committed by the Turks against the Armenians. I think over one million died, which was most of the Turkish-Armenians…
I was watching a documentary on PBS where they interviewed the producer/director who said that to this day, the Turkish gov’t will send hecklers, from the local embassy, in any nation he speaks and devotes significant resources to covering this event up, or attacking historians that study it…
Not just armanians , but also and Kurds. Turks treated them enough.
This sad fact that the member of Nato (that participated in Iraq) untill today deny any the any responsibility for the mass crimes aganins ethnical minorities in turkish terrotory.
BTW did you see the last turkish anti-american film “Valley of the Wolves: Iraq”?
I think the Turks simply call it relocation.
I haven’t seen the film. But the cont’d Turkish pogrom on the Kurds is well known. They’ve been sabre-rattling over the talk of an independent Kurdistan dug out of Northern Iraq. I think if any good comes out of America’s lousy foray in the desert, and independent Kurdish homeland my be it…
Turkey Recalls Ambassador to U.S. Over Armenian Genocide Bill
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301221,00.html
Fox News / Associated Press
Thursday, October 11, 2007
ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey ordered its ambassador in Washington to return to Turkey for consultations over a U.S. House panel’s approval of a bill describing the World War I-era mass killings of Armenians as genocide, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said Thursday.
The ambassador would stay in Turkey for about a week or 10 days for discussions about the measure, said Foreign Ministry spokesman Levent Bilman.
“We are not withdrawing our ambassador. We have asked him to come to Turkey for some consultations,” he said. “The ambassador was given instructions to return and will come at his earliest convenience.”
State Department spokesman Tom Casey, said he was unaware of Turkey’s decision, but said the United States wants to continue to have good relations with Turkey.
“I’ll let the Turkish government speak for itself,” he said. “I think that the Turkish government has telegraphed for a long time, has been very vocal and very public about its concerns about this and has said that they did intend to act in very forceful way if this happens.”
Private NTV television said Turkey’s naval commander had canceled a planned trip to the United States over the bill.
Earlier, the U.S. ambassador to Turkey, Ross Wilson, was invited to the Foreign Ministry, where Turkish officials conveyed their “unease” over the bill and asked that the Bush administration do all in its power to stop the bill from passing in the full House, a Foreign Ministry official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to make press statements.
The House Foreign Affairs Committee passed the bill Wednesday despite intense lobbying by Turkish officials and opposition from President Bush. The vote was a triumph for well-organized Armenian-American interest groups who have lobbied Congress for decades to pass a resolution. The administration will now try to pressure Democratic leaders in Congress not to schedule a vote, although it is expected to pass.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates reiterated his opposition to the resolution Thursday, saying the measure could hurt relations at a time when U.S. forces in Iraq rely heavily on Turkish permission to use their airspace for U.S. air cargo flights.
Relations are already strained by accusations that the U.S. is unwilling to help Turkey fight Kurdish rebels based in northern Iraq.
About 70 percent of U.S. air cargo headed for Iraq goes through Turkey, as does about one-third of the fuel used by the U.S. military in Iraq. U.S. bases also get water and other supplies by land from Turkish truckers who cross into the northern region of Iraqi Kurdistan.
Historians estimate up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by genocide scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey, however, denies the deaths constituted genocide, saying that the toll has been inflated and that those killed were victims of civil war and unrest.
“It is not possible to accept such an accusation of a crime which was never committed by the Turkish nation,” the Turkish government said Thursday. “It is blatantly obvious that the House Committee on Foreign Affairs does not have a task or function to rewrite history by distorting a matter which specifically concerns the common history of Turks and Armenians.”
Armenian President Robert Kocharian welcomed the vote, saying: “We hope this process will lead to a full recognition by the United States of America … of the genocide.”
Speaking to reporters Thursday after meeting European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana, Kocharian also appealed to Turkey to join talks on restoring bilateral relations.
Turkey is under no pressure from the EU to call the Armenian killings genocide. The European Commission criticized France last year when that country’s lower house voted to make it a crime to deny the killings were genocide. The upper house did not take up the bill, so it never became law.
Turkey has warned that relations with the United States will suffer if the bill passes, but has not specified possible repercussions. U.S. diplomats have been quietly preparing Turkish officials for weeks for the likelihood that the resolution would pass, asking for a muted response.
Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns said the Turks “have not been threatening anything specific” in response to the vote, and that he hopes the “disappointment can be limited to statements.”
Turkey ended its military ties with France over its bill last year. But a decision to cut far more expansive military ties with the United States could have serious consequences for Turkey’s standing as a reliable ally of the West.
“I don’t think that Turkey will go so far as to put in doubt its whole network of allied relations with the United States,” said Ruben Safrastian, director of the Institute of Eastern Studies of the Armenian National Academy of Sciences. “In the end, not only is the United States interested in Turkey, but Turkey is interested in the United States.”
Adding to tensions, Turkey is considering launching a military offensive into Iraq against the Kurdish rebels — a move the United States strongly opposes because it could destabilize one of the few relatively peaceful areas in Iraq.
Iraq’s Kurdish region is heavily dependent on trade with Turkey, which provides the region with electricity and oil products. Annual trade at Habur gate, the main border crossing, is more than $10 billion.
In a recent letter, Turkish President Abdullah Gul warned there would be “serious troubles” if Congress adopted the measure. He reacted quickly Wednesday, saying “some politicians in the United States have once again sacrificed important matters to petty domestic politics despite all calls to common sense.”
Turkish newspapers denounced the decision. “27 foolish Americans,” the daily Vatan said on its front-page headline, in reference to legislators who voted for the bill.
Hurriyet called the resolution: “Bill of hatred.”
The U.S. Embassy urged Americans in Turkey to be alert for violent repercussions. Wilson said he regretted the committee’s decision and said he hoped it would not be passed by the House.
Sidebar:
Amin Al-Husseini (former Mufti of Jerusalem) was a Turkish officer during the First World War and participated in the Armenian Genocide.
1914-1917 Husseini’s First Taste of Jihad - Allegiance to Ottoman Empire.
Amin Al-Husseini swears allegiance to the Ottoman Empire during the Armenian genocide. He is an officer stationed in Smyrna and participates first-hand in the Armenian genocide. One and a half million Christians are slaughtered under the sword of Islamic Jihad by the Ottoman Army. Allegiance to Ottoman Empire and Islamic world take-over will be echoed by Osama Bin Laden in his post-September 11th declaration.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/Ottoman-officer_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com
Most certainly connected to the build up or Turkish forces along their border with Kurdistan/northern Iraq…
While theres nothing wrong with the conversations in this thread it has strayed far from topic I think. But as it is very interesting I think this one should either be renamed or just continue.
Turkey Recalls Ambassador to U.S. Over Armenian Genocide Bill
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301221,00.html
Fox News / Associated Press
Thursday, October 11, 2007
ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey ordered its ambassador in Washington to return to Turkey for consultations over a U.S. House panel’s approval of a bill describing the World War I-era mass killings of Armenians as genocide, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said Thursday…
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=110090&postcount=50
[/QUOTE]
Turkish Government Seeks Authorization for Cross-Border Iraq Operation
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301748,00.html
Fox News / Associated Press
Monday, October 15, 2007
ANKARA, Turkey — The Turkish government will seek parliamentary approval for a military operation against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq, a government spokesman said Monday, taking action on one of two major issues straining relations with Washington.
The spokesman, Cemil Cicek, said he hoped Parliament would vote on the motion this week — passage is considered likely — but indicated that the government would still prefer a solution to the conflict that does not involve a cross-border offensive.
“Our hope is that there will be no need to use this motion,” Cicek said.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s government twice acquired similar authorizations from the Parliament in 2003, but did not act on them.
Cicek insisted the only target was the rebel Kurdistan Workers’ Party, known as the PKK.
“We have always respected the sovereignty of Iraq, which is a friendly and brotherly country to us,” Cicek said. “But the reality that everyone knows is that this terrorist organization, which has bases in the north of Iraq, is attacking the territorial integrity of Turkey and its citizens.”
The statement appeared to be aimed at reassuring Iraq’s central government as well as Iraqi Kurds, who run their own administration in northern Iraq.
Fighting along the border with Iraq was reported over the weekend, where Turkey’s military said it “responded heavily” to attacks from northern Iraq by Kurdish fighters on Friday. Iraqi Kurds reported that Turkish artillery hit their territory.
Senior rebel commander Duran Kalkan said the Turkish military would suffer a serious blow if it launches a cross-border offensive, saying it would “be bogged down in a quagmire,” the pro-Kurdish Firat news agency reported Monday.
Oil prices rose Monday, partly reflecting concerns over a conflict that could open up a new front in the Iraq war. Light, sweet crude for November delivery hit a new high of $85.19 a barrel before retreating in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange, midafternoon in Europe.
Cabinet ministers also were expected to debate retaliatory measures if the U.S. Congress passes a resolution that labels the World War I-era killings of Armenians as genocide.
A U.S. House panel approved the resolution last week, infuriating Turkish leaders who said ties with their NATO ally would suffer.
At issue in the resolution is the killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turks. Many international historians contend the World War I-era deaths amounted to genocide, but Turkey says the mass killings and deportations were not systematic and that many Turkish Muslims died in the chaos of war.
Turkish anger over the genocide resolution has led to commentary that Turkey would be less likely to take into account U.S. opposition to a unilateral Turkish action in Iraq, which could destabilize a relatively peaceful part of the country.
Turkey’s top general warned over the weekend that military ties between Turkey and the United States could be seriously damaged if the genocide resolution passes Congress.
Tony Fratto, a White House spokesman, said President Bush had no plans to intervene in the vote, although the administration has been lobbying intensely to persuade lawmakers to reject the resolution.
“There should be no question of the president’s views on this issue and the damage that this resolution could do to U.S. foreign policy interests,” Fratto told reporters Monday aboard Air Force One.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has said she will schedule a vote soon on the resolution.
Fratto said the White House does not want Pelosi to bring it to the floor; should it come to a vote, he said, “We will strongly encourage members not to support it.”
Turkey, a major cargo hub for U.S. forces in Iraq, has recalled its ambassador to Washington for consultations and warned that there might be a cut in logistical support to the United States.
About 70 percent of U.S. air cargo headed for Iraq goes through Turkey, as does about one-third of the fuel used by the U.S. military there. U.S. bases also get water and other supplies carried in by Turkish truckers who cross into Iraq’s northern Kurdish region.
In 1975, Washington imposed an arms embargo that lasted three years against Ankara following its invasion of Cyprus, using U.S. weapons. Turkey, a Cold War ally of the United States, responded by limiting U.S. military and intelligence activities on its soil.
Turkey has urged the United States and Iraq to crack down on PKK rebels who have been fighting for autonomy in southeast Turkey since 1984.