US small arms of WWII

You have that backwards dude. You are the exception. You’ve seen the encyclopedia article that states that it is not based on the M1 Garand. Why do you persist after reading the truth? What is wrong with you?

Do you know so little about firearms that you think because the bolt is similar between two weapons that one is a copy of the other? If that were true, then the majority of weapons would be considered, by you anyway, to be copies of each other by genre.

Good Lord dude. I mean, you didn’t realize that a .22 can pass through a man, you think a .410 with shot is not going to stop a man at near PB, and now you’re trying to say that 2 weapons with similar bolts are copies?

:shock:

You might like to know, Patent Office Clerk, that the M1 Carbine is a compilation of several designs, which David “Carbine” Williams examined and drew ideas from.

The M1 Carbine is not a freaking copy of or based upon the M1 Garande. You have been duped, again. :roll:

I own firearms from 4 different makers. All of the rifles have similar bolts, no 2 of them is made by the same company.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

For that matter, I’m sure that many early semi-auto rifles (pre WWII) have similar bolts. I guess you’d say, “They are copies of each other!”

:lol:

So now Wikipedia is not a credible source, after you have used it so much for posting here. Good Lord Patent Office Clerk. Good Lord.

David Williams invented the short-stroke tappet gas system which was used on the M1 carbine. The rest of the design was from Winchester.

All this “expertise” from a man who thinks that the calibre of the M1 garand is .306" (from here: http://www.gamingforums.com/showpost.php?p=498173&postcount=45), that semi-autos are less powerful than bolt or revolver guns, that the M1 carbine is “spring operated”, etc etc etc. And I seem to remember that you said that the AK47 was based on and is mechanically similar to the MP44 cos they look similar from the outside, when in fact they are mechanically extremely different.

The wikipedia article says that it is a RELATED design. Not INDEPENDENT. NOWHERE have you posted a source that says that it was an INDEPENDENT design.

You have also not posted any proof that a .22lr will go through a person other than your own “blather”. Repeating yourself does not make it true.

Most pre-war semi-auto rifles have vastly differing bolts. Get a copy of Smith & Smith and a copy of Hatcher and have a look.

I’d like to know which 4 rifles you have which have similar bolts - if they’re hunting rifles I’d wager that they’re all based on the Mauser 98.

EDIT: Examples of rifles with actions based on the Mauser 98: M1903 Springfield, CZ550, Musgrave, Parker-Hale M82 etc, Pattern 14 (although without the cocking-on-opening feature).

Once again Patent Office Clerk, you attempt to twist my words. I never said that the Garande is a .306 calibre, but, for your education, .306 is how the name is commonly written. You are learning today Patent OFffice Clerk! It was developed in 1906, Clerk. I live in a state chock-full of deer hunters. 30-06 is the most popular cailbre of hunting rifle for deer. I’m an ex-hunter myself. When you want lessons on shooting a 30-06, post it here and I will tutor you. :lol:

I bet you think the .308 is a a lot more powerful than the 30-06 too. :lol:

They are, by a very small margin. :lol:

It certainly is! But not because they look similar. They look similar partly because they are internally similar. You stated it backwards. Everyone knows this… except you! There are articles by weapons experts (which I provided to you once!) who informed you of this, but your memory is thin and your agenda is fat, so you remember it not.

Now, since you can’t understand a simple numerated illustration and understand it’s components with descriptive texts, and since you go around telling people that you are a patent inspector when you are actually a patent office clerical person, who cannot understand text-described simple line-drawing illustrations, :lol:

…you should not be trying too hard to belittle anyone.

Good Lord. Now you can’t even understand the paragraph from the article. Here t is again. This time, read it. BTW, ALMOST EVERY FIREARM HAS RELATED DESIGNS. When you get yourself a few real weapons some day, you might learn that on your own.

“Although the M1 Carbine is sometimes described as a development of the M1 Garand rifle, it has a related but different internal design. It is based upon a lightweight tappet-and-slide gas system and uses detachable, large-capacity magazines. It fires a smaller and lighter (.30 Carbine) (.30 caliber (7.62 mm)) cartridge which is very different, in both design and performance, from the full-sized .30-06 cartridge used by the Garand.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Carbine

Alas, the truth, once more. Once more Mr. I Don’t Own a Rifle, virtually all rifles have related designs. :lol:

So, now you know!

You have not posted proof that it cannot! Again, your lack of experience with firearms. How many rounds have you fired from a .22 LR Stoat? None? It shows.

Again Mr. I Don’t Own a Rifle, virtually all semi-auto rifles have similarities in bolt design. :lol:

Are you learning about firearms today Patent Office Clerk?

Good Lord. Now you think most semi-auto hunting rifles are based on a bolt-action mauser? Did you assume my rifles are bolt-action? Do you think all bolt action rifles are based on the Mauser? Mr. I Don’t Own a Rifle, your lack of experience with firearms is showing.

Help for you: Mauser is not the first and never was the best. many rifles are better in quality than Mauser. Mossberg, Ithica, Browning, Remington, Marlin - all superior to Mauser.

You are learning!

EDITED TO CORRECT CODES

Yawn, round and round in little circles, YAWN :o

Now this is really funny. Lie, or just a really bad memory?
Go to the link Stoaty posted and you find the following comment by IRONMAN:

All bold mine

You mean IRONMAN has once more lied but will still deny it despite the evidence offered?

Once again Patent Office Clerk, you attempt to twist my words. I never said that the Garande is a .306 calibre, but, for your education, .306 is how the name is commonly written. You are learning today Patent OFffice Clerk! It was developed in 1906, Clerk. I live in a state chock-full of deer hunters. 30-06 is the most popular cailbre of hunting rifle for deer. I’m an ex-hunter myself. When you want lessons on shooting a 30-06, post it here and I will tutor you. :lol:

I bet you think the .308 is a a lot more powerful than the 30-06 too. :lol:
[/quote]

Oh, so now .30-06 is commonly written as .306 in TINWALT land is it? .30-06 is commonly written as… .30-06! Not .306. And in any case, the diameter of the projectile is .308" And you said it here:

http://www.gamingforums.com/showpost.php?p=498173&postcount=45

Even if they could not speak English, the gestures of thet mighty M1’s barrel (.306 calibre) did the talking for him. They just did what he said, and he walked them down the dirt road to his commander. : )

From: Hatcher’s Notebook p. 255, Maj. Gen. J. Hatcher (retd), 3rd edition, Stackpole, 1962

Garand .30: Wt. charge - 50gn, Wt. bullet 172gn, Bullet travel* - 21.76", Muzzle velocity - 2653fps
Springfield .30: Wt. charge - 50gn, Wt. bullet 172gn, Bullet travel* - 21.76", Muzzle velocity - 2653fps

Read it carefully - there is NO DIFFERENCE IN MUZZLE VELOCITY BETWEEN THE M1903 SPRINGFIELD AND THE GARAND. Thus no difference in muzzle energy, since the bullet weight is the same.

Thus you are WRONG.

One has a tipping block, the other has a rotating bolt. Completely different. I have fired and stripped both of them. You have handled neither.

Alas, the truth, once more. Once more Mr. I Don’t Own a Rifle, virtually all rifles have related designs. :lol:

As far as rifles go, I own a 1959 L1A1 SLR made at Fazakerly, a Vetterli M1870 Kadettengewehr made at SIG Neuhausen, an Enfield P1853 Carbine from 1856 cut down to a 20" carbine, and until last month I had a 1944 dated Enfield No.4 from BSA Shirley, a 1933 M1891/30 Mosin-Nagant from Izevsk, a 1946 M44 Mosin-Nagant carbine also from Izevsk, which appeared in Shooting Sports a couple of years ago in an article penned by… me, and a Ruger 10/22.

At my peak of .22lr use I was getting through 2-300 per week.

My L1A1 has no similarities to anything with a rotating bolt.

BLATANT TROLLING - words in the mouth. I never specified what action type. And I wouldn’t make an error such as saying that anything semi-auto was based on the Mauser - I leave that up to you.

BTW, penetration of .22lr in ballistic gelatin is around 10" from a longer-barrelled pistol:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/sd22.html

I am personally 10.6" thick at the torso. So, even if it misses bone, it is unlikely to exit me with a perpendicular shot.

And here’s some wound profiles in ballistic gelatin:

37gn .22lr HP fired from a rifle (so higher velocity than from a pistol, note approx. 10" penetration):

9mm Parabellum M882 ball (not the approx 28" penetration and larger permanent and temporary cavities):

EDIT: These images come from: http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm Scroll down to the bottom.

You blundered. You are comparing 2 specific firearms. Between autos and bolt-actions, there is a marginal difference. I did say marginal, and that is what I said originally. :lol: If you want to see this difference magnified, compare cannons which are breech-loading to auto-loading cannons.

Again patent Clerk, you try to twist my words. You have attempted to make it appear as though i said there is a sensible difference, when i said there is a marginal difference. Please patent clerk, don;t try twisting other people’s words. it’s a habit for you, but it always leads to your saying something goofy and then proven wrong about your exagerations.

However!:

Fullton Armory:
"Theoretically, the .308 has an ever so slight advantage due to the decreased case volume (the powder does not move around much in a .308 case; more modern powders allow less to be used for similar performance. In the .30-'06 case, the powder has lots of room to lay a bit differently on each shot fired). However, in the DCM/CMP Service Rifle course of fire, such “differences” evaporate for most shooters. However, at long range (e.g., 1000 yards) the .30-06 catridge offers a real advantage, though, not remarkably.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1_308.htm

On the other hand, the .30-'06 cartridge has the wonderful ability to offer a little bit more power at reduced chamber pressure levels. Though it seems odd that the .30-06 has less chamber pressures than the .308 and yet a bit more “power,” it’s nonetheless true."

NOT REMARKABLY Stoat. Like the difference between autos and bolties. Are you getting the picture? Now make sure you take that information and exaggerate it too. Say something to make it look like the Fulton Armory is saying that the diff between the 308 and 06 are significant. Go on! Do it Stoaty! You can do it! :lol:

I’ve driven a race car too, but I’m no expert on them either. Sorry Stoat, but experts say one is the inspiration for the other. You and I have had this debate before, and I proved you wrong before. Shall I do it again?

Take it from me Stoat. It is capable of passing theough a man at near PB if it does not hit bone. A cop in my city died from one recently. Shot in the stomach, the bullet passed clean through him, missing his spine. He bled to death internally in 20 minutes because it passed through his stomach. Quite a few people have been killed with .22 LR’s just that way. If you don’t believe that, it’s your little problem. But, you are wrong.

Stoat, here’s a tip for you: The reason so many larger calibre bullets stop inside someone is because they have low velocity, like a 9mm parabellum, a 380, or a .30 short. While they might do a lot of damage going in, these rounds seldom have the velocity to pass completely through someone. This is not always the case with the small, high velocity .22 LR, especially if it is fired from a long pistol or a rifle.

A 9mm pistol typically has lower velocity and it is a much fatter bullet than a HV .22 LR, which is far more likely, but only sometimes will, pass clean through a man. Yes Stoat. A HV .22 LR can pass completely through a man. They have many times.

Learning Stoaty? Good.

Stoat, most automatic rifles use a rotating bolt. :lol:
Do you think they are all based on each other’s designs?
Are they all children of each other? :shock:

OK, now, let’s shoot down the myth you’ve fallen prey to about the M1 Carbine being based on the M1 Garand:

Desipite similarities in naming, there is no relationship between the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine.
http://www.answers.com/topic/garand

The M1 Carbine is often thought of as a variant of the Garand, but this is actually a misnomer.
http://garand.biography.ms/

The Carbine was one of over twenty designs submitted to the Government. It took over a year and a half to decide on this example.
http://home.att.net/~ra-carbines/history.html

The gun was the brainchild of David M. “Carbine” Williams who apparently did much of his design work for the carbine while serving time for “moonshining”. Later Williams helped engineers at Winchester perfect his basic design.
http://duncanlong.com/science-fiction-fantasy-short-stories/m1.htm

Many companies submitted their designs for US Army trials but the winner eventually became the Winchester. The design of the Winchester carbine is often contributed to the David “Carbine” Williams, who was the developer of the gas system. But, according to some sources, this carbine was born as a spare-time hunting carbine project of some engineers at Winchesters’ workshop, and, when military request appeared, this design was resurrected and adopted for intended use.
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl08-e.htm

So now Stoat, patent office clerk, again, you are wrong.

The M1 Carbine is NOT based on the M1 Garand. You read the myth and fell for it. Furthermore, you think that because there are similarities between the bolts in 2 guns that one is based on the other. Once more Stoat, patent office clerk, if that were true, then every rifle would be based on the design of every other of it’s kind, which is not true either.

Stoat, that’s just the way it is.

26.5 centimeter = 10.4330709 inches

Yup. You blundered again. You just proved to yourself that a HV .22 LR can pass through a man. Stoat, most 9mm won’t pass through a man if they don’t hit bone either. LOL

Learning now are you?

Funny how “experts” only ever agree with you, while anyone else is an idiot :roll:

Staot, please feel free to help me prove your other contentions are wrong. I did say that an HV .22 LR has the power to pss through a man, and that was correct. Why did you not believe me? Why did you have to see it for yourself with a chart? :lol:

[quote=“IRONMAN”]

26.5 centimeter = 10.4330709 inches

Yup. You blundered again. You just proved to yourself that a HV .22 LR can pass through a man. Stoat, most 9mm won’t pass through a man if they don’t hit bone either. LOL

Learning now are you?[/quote]

Is that not exactly what MoS said? That it would penetrate about 10’’

Why oh why oh why do you make it so easy for us Tinny?

Funny how “experts” only ever agree with you, while anyone else is an idiot :roll:[/quote]

What’s funny is that I use experts to prove someone’s wild contentions wrong, and you sayt that. That’s what’s funny.

26.5 centimeter = 10.4330709 inches

Yup. You blundered again. You just proved to yourself that a HV .22 LR can pass through a man. Stoat, most 9mm won’t pass through a man if they don’t hit bone either. LOL

Learning now are you?[/quote]

Is that not exactly what MoS said? That it would penetrate about 10’’

Why oh why oh why do you make it so easy for us Tinny?[/quote]

Yes, precicely. he did show that it can pass through a man at over 10". That is true. Alas, his contention that a .22 does not have the power to pass through a man was false!

Thus, my statement that my long-barrel Colt .22 revolver has the ability to pass a bullet through a man - was correct all along. It just took Stoaty a chart to learn it. I understand if he has trouble believeing what others say without a chart. But at least he knows the truth now.

No, he said that it would penetrate about 10’’ - not that it would penetrate a man at 10’’