Victor's injustice

But the law may not be universal. In Australia such events may be governed by different laws depending upon the status of the landlord or seller. For example, consumer protection legislation usually applies only to businesses and not private individuals. Consumer protection legislation provides clearer and stronger remedies than the often complicated common law and equitable remedies which apply to private individuals. Similarly, a consumer may be able to sue a business in a small claims tribunal where lawyers are excluded and there is no risk of having to pay the trader’s legal costs if the consumer loses, but if the seller is a private individual then the consumer has to use the court system which is much more expensive and difficult to use without a lawyer.

So the law which regulates society is not the same law for the same person in transactions which are identical save for the status of the other party.

There’s not much sense or universal fairness in a legal system which grants or removes legal rights by looking at the status of one of the parties.

But then again, that is consistent with the origin of the Australian legal system as the product which flowed from the English monarch’s resolution of disputes among his lords. This evolved into the common law courts and the parallel equity jurisdiction, with each jurisdiction having its own remedies which were not available in the other. As the English discovered parliamentary democracy the legislature grafted its ever-increasing outpouring of legislation onto the other two jurisdictions. And then common law and equity courts were fused but the separate doctrines and remedies remain today as glorious remnants of an inherently contradictory system which lacks a coherent unifying doctrine because the system evolved rather than was designed.

250 kw, not hp. That’s about 335 hp. Anyway, I’m looking at getting only 240kw / 320 hp, because I value and want to maintain my environmental credibility. :slight_smile:

They are not always regulated in the sense of the result being prescribed or known from the outset. Many aspects of those things are left to the discretion of a judge and or civil jury to determine, albeit supposedly in accordance with established legal principles. But nobody knows what the law is in a given case until the judge’s decision is delivered.

They are regulated in the sense that the law says what the process is to obtain the judge’s decision and what the principles are that the judge should consider, as informed by counsel during the proceedings and to whatever extent the judge may be aware of other relevant principles.

But despite all that the law is not certain. A case which goes all the way in our system can have a finding for the plaintiff at first instance in a magistrates’ court; a finding for the defendant by a single judge on appeal; a finding for the plaintiff by two of three judges on further appeal; and a finding for the defendant by four of seven judges on final appeal. Which is a total of six judges for the plaintiff and six for the plaintiff, but one party wins by a single vote on final appeal despite an equality of judicial opinion overall. Or it can happen that all judges find for one party until the final appellate court decides 4-3 in favour of the other, despite a majority of 8-4 overall in favour of the other.

Then over time the final appellate decision may become judicially regarded as bad law and it is distinguished away to irrelevance even though it is part of the body of principle which should be applied to future cases by all inferior courts.

Again, not a system designed to deliver the certainty that judges are fond of saying is a critical function of the law.

Maybe, but the vast bulk of law is not concerned with any of that, but with tedious administrative detail about the structure and administration of the public service; the size of drains; regulation of occupations; eradication of vermin and noxious weeds; design standards for motor vehicles; weights and measures; immigration; town planning; and an almost endless parade of mind-numbing petty bureaucratic things which in practice create fertile ground for disputation with government and others where often there would be none without the attempt at regulation.

I’d suggest that much of that is implicit, if not explicit, in many laws, from a prohibition on murder, rape, property crimes etc to family law requirements for parents to support their children financially to testators having to make adequate provision for their dependants, because these are good or wise or decent things for us to do. And when people don’t observe these laws they are either punished by the criminal law system or a judge imposes his or her view on the parties to achieve what is good or wise or decent to the extent that such notions underpin the law.

But there can be more explicit laws or legislative expressions which reflect the legislators’ conception of what is good or wise or decent at the time, such as the acknowledgement and protection of human rights in the Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities Act http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubLawToday.nsf/a12f6f60fbd56800ca256de500201e54/DCA32E487DFE99E8CA2576930003C52B/$FILE/06-43a005.pdf and the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

But what if the ‘elected government’ was elected fraudulently, as many in the world are?

Where is the legitimacy in an illegitimate government applying the criminal law to opponents trying to overthrow it, which is often the case with revolutionary movements?

Don’t hold your breath waiting.

Until we eliminate the Stalin / Hitler / Pol Pot / Mugabe / Burma junta / Taliban / sociopathic ruthless bastard gene from the gene pool it’s going to go on forever.I don’t think that gene is going to disappear, not least because from an evolutionary viewpoint it is in many respects the one best equipped to survive because it overwhelms those without that gene.

In the meantime, the only effective way to enforce international law is to emulate State legal systems and have an effective international police force and court system. Which also isn’t going to happen any time soon, because no nation is prepared to surrender its sovereignty.

This is an enjoyable debate. I think it occurs primarily because I am coming from a pragmatic practitioner’s viewpoint and I think you are coming more from a highly informed jurisprudential viewpoint.

My point is that everyside can excuse herself with the same that Harris did , everyone can find some idiotic reason for the mass bombing , i bet if Goering was alive he can too maybe he will say he just wanted to make training for the LW pilots or whatever else …
As for the Italians and the soviets for which it seems to me you try to glorify if we compare them there is one big major difference - Italians : no Gulags , no NKVD ( by the mass killings , camps and prosecution continued even AFTER 1945 when there were no nazis in Eastern Europe ) no mass killings or what so known so far to me . If the camps and mass killings are justified for you and they are somewhat big heroes with no other chance … what you will say about after 1945 ? turning against civilians , no nazis huh ? And yes it has big to do with the victor’s injustice , because while the West tryed to hide behind the Iron curtain and wage some kind of strange war , milions who opposed and didn’t agree , even said a word against the communistic idiotic sistem were simply in the best case killed , on other more bad put in concentration camp … the biggest here in my country is called " Belene" , and here goes the victor injustice cause the western won the strange cold war and still not even a word about the horrors , just words like yours " I don’t recall the Soviets doing anything like that. " yes you won’t and don’t want to recall the soviets and their mass killings hidden behind the iron curtain for very known reasons - cause they did the hard job for you , so you must turn eye blind . That’s why it would be strange for you why i am so against them and the model which destroed the eastern for years to come .

As for the Italians i spoke in now of course , back then when you feel victor i doubt anyone felt bad .

"I could also have said that the Soviets bore the brunt of the European war in fighting, manpower, and casualties (military, POW and civilian) and that without them the Nazis could well still have control of a substantial part of Europe, including where you live. But I suppose that would be unacceptable to you as you seem to be somewhat hostile to the Soviets. "

No it’s not only because of them if there wasn’t many open fronts in 1944 and active Allied engagment the war could continue a lot longer , specially the germans were producing V1,V2 and hell knows what else .
And the statement that the Dresden bombing raid was to aid Soviet advance … lol haven’t heard more funny thing really … you know that’s a lie and to lie is a bad thing :wink:

LOL i think you very much know what i mean … and by the way wake up there is no Warsaw pact today … the example was for today . I meant that the way you justify the soviets and their doings i pray someone invade us … we can kill him , burn him , throw him in GULAG ( we have one from soviet time it would do great job to reopen lol ) , suppress any opposition , kill civilians only because they said " **** your president " … that would be great i am lookin’ forward to it . Because all is in the name of the big heroes and the long living freedom :wink:

And had little fuel or lubricants to put in them and had huge difficulties transferring just about anything to the fronts…

I realize there’s no Warsaw Pact “today,” I’m trying to figure out what the hell you’re talking and in what context…

You’re not Robinson Crusoe there, mate.

WTF is he on about with the Trail of Tears and post-WWII absence of Western fingers lifted to oppose the USSR and all the other remote influences and irrelevant historical events which made Harris and Churchill the worst war criminals of all time as associates of the NKVD … blah blah blah?

Which ‘excuse’ do you say Harris used that other sides used for mass bombing?

Apart from the Americans and British, I don’t think any other nation was engaged in bombing on that scale during the war and certainly not in 1945 in Germany.

Well, Goering was alive at the time of Dresden and indeed for some time after the war but, unfortunately for him and the Luftwaffe pilots, at the time of Dresden the days had long passed since they could make such a claim, or even engage in training flights or anything but desperate survival flights, despite having started the bombing war with Rotterdam, Coventry, etc.

It is always rather curious to see people complaining about the biter being bit.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap, and all that.

Well, f*ck me drunk and shove a burnt wombat up my arse for hairy confusion in the morning about the events of the night before.

When, and in exactly what words, have I tried to glorify (a) the Italians (which would be quite a difficult job given their rather poor performance in the war) and (b) the Soviets (who, like it or not and like them or not, bore the brunt of the European war against the Nazis – compare the American and British / German losses in the West with the Soviet / German losses in the East).

So?

The Soviets didn’t use poison gas in Ethiopia as the Italians did, but what does that prove about the moral or other superiority or inferiority of either compared with the other?

What I’ll say is that post-war events or the lack of them have fu*k all to do with Dresden and or victors’ justice or injustice in WWII and everything to do with your obsessive hostility to the Soviets and or Russians.

Have you just come off an LSD trip or something?

The West hid behind the Iron Curtain?

Where do you get this crazy sht from? A fcktard comic?

You clearly have no idea of the enormous Western air, sea and land forces arrayed and trained against the USSR and China, and lesser communist states, for several decades after WWII nor the tens of thousands of Western lives lost in hot wars against them and not a few lives lost in cold wars against them.

What’s strange here is your distorted and irrational conception of just about everything to do with the points you have raised so far as they relate to Dresden and WWII.

So it’s time for a reality check.

Why did the Western nations have any obligation to save anyone but themselves from the Soviets after WWII?

Why didn’t the nations taken over by the Soviets save themselves?

Why do you blame the West for the failures of your own governments and people post-war, which stems in part from your country’s decision to join the Axis early in the war when it looked like the Nazis would win?

Why aren’t you complaining about Bulgaria’s invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece when it looked like the Nazis were winning, or was it alright for Bulgaria to do that but wrong for the Soviets to take over Bulgaria? Biter bit, and all that.

Instead of raising remote events such as the Trail of Tears why aren’t you complaining about Bulgaria’s complicity in rounding up Jews from the territories Bulgaria occupied in Yugoslavia and Greece so that they could be shipped to the Nazi gas chambers? Or didn’t those Jews being sent to gas chambers by Nazi-aligned Bulgarians matter as much as American Indians being dispossessed but generally allowed to live by the evil Americans some sixty to seventy years earlier?

Didn’t Bulgaria act in a craven and treacherous fashion by joining the Axis when it looked like they were winning and later switching sides to the Soviets when the Soviets were invading?

How are any of the foregoing unilateral and voluntary acts by Bulgaria, and their post-war consequences, the fault of the Western Allies?

And why the fu*k would any Western power want to save such a craven and treacherous nation which was an Axis power fighting the West for almost all of the war, until it switched sides at the last minute to save its own skin?

Oh, and what about the communists in Bulgaria who opposed its pro-Nazi regime during the war and assisted Bulgaria’s induction into the Soviet circle? I suppose that’s the fault of Roosevelt or Truman or Eisenhower or Kennedy et al? After all, it is well known that the Americans had the power to create and control indigenous political movements in states under Nazi occupation. Or was it Churchill who performed that magic? Jesus wept!

Okay.

Give me examples of Soviet bombing similar to Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Oh, sorry. I forgot that the Soviets didn’t have atomic weapons at the time.

So find me some with conventional weapons that are equivalent to Tokyo.

It would also be less annoying if you stopped your facile distortions of what I say to present my comments in an entirely different context which, happily for you, conforms with your pathological hostility to the Soviets (or at least the ones who weren’t Bulgarian communists who brought the Soviets to power in Bulgaria, which clearly was the fault of the rabidly anti-communist West.).

No, I just don’t know about them.

Do enlighten us about the Soviet Auschwitzes etc.

Sorry.

I was just relying on historical evidence.

Perhaps you could try that to support some of your assertions, for a welcome change.

The Soviets didn’t even have a strategic bomber force worth a piss. They did indiscriminately use artillery and tactical bombing when they were within range of German cities though, to be fair…

Sorry.

I was just relying on historical evidence.

Perhaps you could try that to support some of your assertions, for a welcome change.

We’re wasting our breath here I’m afraid with passionate, emotional people looking to play the blame-game…

Right. I thought he was talking about some hypothetical, NATO-sanctioned Turkish invasion of Bulgaria during a war that never happened or something. But maybe he’s just drunker than we are? :slight_smile:

This is not a bombardment example but this case give some light on this issue:

MV Wilhelm Gutloff german ship hospital

The Wilhelm Gustloff’s final voyage was during Operation Hannibal in January 1945, when it was sunk while participating in the evacuation of civilians and personnel who were surrounded by the Red Army in East Prussia. The Gustloff was hit by three torpedoes from the Soviet submarine S-13 in the Baltic Sea on the night of 30 January 1945 and sank in less than 45 minutes. An estimated 9,400 people were killed in the sinking.[1][2] If accurate, this would be the largest known loss of life occurring during a single ship sinking in recorded maritime history

A terrible tragedy. But also a pittance regarding the loss of Soviet lives in Barbarossa. And again, the ship never would have been sunk to begin with if Germany had not tried to “kick” the “rotten door” in to begin with. And how does said “atrocity” compare with German soldiers sometimes throwing Russians out of their dachas after stealing any sort of decent winter clothing they had, and into subzero temperatures? (according to Beevor in “Stalingrad.”)…

Did they show how they were liberating their Slavic brothers from evil old Uncle Stalin? Really?

Ahem. The Gustloff had around 1,000 unwounded military personnel on board and was fitted with several guns. Even if the Germans had tried to claim it as a hospital ship (they didn’t) there would be so many breaches of the Geneva convention involved that the Soviets would be justified in sinking it on sight. Same principle applies throughout international law of all types - as soon as you use a protected place or ship for military purposes, it loses that protection. Even getting near it (e.g. siting an artillery battery near a field hospital) can cause a protected place to lose that status.

Thanks god Hitler didn’t think the same way when british were scaping from Dunkerke. Actually he let them go, no matter what you say.

All the Luftwaffe sorties, notwithstanding.

Of course, some of Hilter’s SS minions didn’t exactly get the “Hitler loves the good Aryan British” memo since they massacred around 100 disarmed POWs around that time IIRC…

Not bloody likely! :wink:

Not that bad since they were in position of massacring 338.000 BEF and french soldiers.

That’s already been addressed in another thread here.

Who were? The worn panzers that had very little in infantry support that were supposed to have gone into an urban built up area to attack infantry that outnumbered them several times over. Yeah, a few hundred tanks were going to drive into rubble filled, city streets and “massacre” a third of a million men? Really? Which military academy did you go to?

Try actually reading about the battle. The panzers were halted for a very good reason, and little of it had to do with making the British feel good about themselves…

Additionally, once the British had a solid perimeter at Dunkirk, the whole way the German attack in France had worked (attack a weak point and outflank) just didn’t work any more - few weak points, no flanks, and the British had interior lines and could react comparatively quickly.
Also, remember that France had not yet surrendered - if the Germans had brought up the forces necessary to “massacre” the third of a million British troops in the pocket (and I note that you seem to think it was somehow kind or generous of the Germans not to!) then the invasion of the rest of France would have been delayed. When it actually went in, the French would have fought much harder knowing that they couldn’t surrender - so wouldn’t have collapsed when outflanked. It the circumstances, it is unclear if the Germans could actually have conquered France.

Additionally, it should also be noted that the fiercest resistance the Germans faced in France was ironically at the very end, when all hope was lost. French troops fought doggedly in the hedgerows of the Norman bocage much as their enemy would four years later for many of the reasons pdf27 states. When the panzers couldn’t run free, the Germans were brought down a notch in bitter siege and sapper battles…

Maybe you know better than Alan Brooke ,Mr. General.

Most of the British were still around Lille, over 40 miles from Dunkirk, and the French still further south. Two massive German armies flanked them: General Fedor von Bock’s Army Group B was to the east, and General Gerd von Rundstedt’s Army Group A to the west. (Both these officers were later promoted to Field Marshal). Von Rundstedt’s panzers were within 10 miles of Dunkirk.

“Nothing but a miracle can save the BEF now,” wrote General Brooke in his diary. And General Lord Gort told Anthony Eden, the British Secretary of State for War: “I must not conceal from you that a great part of the BEF and its equipment will inevitably be lost even in the best circumstances.” On 23 May, he put the army on half-rations. In Britain, 26 May was designated a “Day of National Prayer” for the Army.

Doesn´t look like a promising situation. At least British are decent enough to thank god for this miracle or maybe they should thank uncle Ady?