Vulcan is Back in the Sky!!!

Other Wars Falklands/Malvinas War
#21

Hello there,

I have said all that came to my mind about Mr. Ward and his actions… it may be argued that the airlifting cappability needed to be cut down… it was already cut. the Herc was going down and on fire.

With regards to the bestiality of the command sending that Herc there, I already expressed my disgust.

Anyway, I rest my case.

With regards of the “machine guning” of Helicopters… this is the first time I heard about it… you might be reffereing to the section of the 25th Infantry “lodged” in Fanning Head to “prevent a landing”… headed by the then Lt. Esteban…60 guys or so? armed with perhaps FALs, maybe a FAP? Thry had to leave their heavy equipment such as a 105 recoiless cannon in Fanning Head to have the oportunity to run… an event like that would have had a tremendous impact on the media…

Yes, they sot down a couple of helicopters, but I doubt very much that the survivors were machine gunned in the water… before retreating and being ready for the battle for Goose Green/Darwin…

Cheers, it is good to talk in such a convivial manner.

#22

If that’s the incident I’ve heard about, they were critically injured and trapped inside a house that was burning down around them. The only choices facing that British guy in the accounts I’ve read (who was IIRC a medic) was to leave them to burn to death or kill them quickly.
All I can hope is that if I’m ever in an identical situation someone has the balls to do the same thing for me.

#23

Its spelled pathetic, seeing as you are so keen to pick up on other forum users English, please at least have the courtesy to spell your insults correctly.

Seeing as you seem to have difficulty grasping the point, most foreign commentators point to the Falklands War as an example of how both sides respected the rules of war. That was the point being made.

I will not allow you to drag this into a flame war as you did the last time. I generally don’t bother to respond to your posts for that very reason.

#24

Panzon,

I’m afraid thats what happened but that wasn’t the point, I was referring to a reference that highlighted how in the main BOTH sides respected the rules of war. That was the point.

#25

Panzon,

Nice to hear from you, in passing did you get my email?

Hello Lone “Kimosabi”:smiley:

No I did not receive any e-mail from you my friend, please look for it in your sent items folder and send it back to me if you can.

With respect to the “mercy kills” that were mentioned before, I do not remember having read about them ( I mean in a house), However, in a BBC Doc that I have in VHS, some years after the battle, I remember an NCO telling the story of how he had to shoot an Argentine prisoner that was burnig alive with what I seem to remember Napalm… I remember his eyes, and how the tears were coming into that “hardened” warrior and I can not doubt for a minute that he acted in that particular case out of pitty, I remember saying in tears that "he had to decide to put him out of his misery).

It was a war and surely horrible things happened… I just wish it never happened.

Cheers,

Pánzon.

#26

Panzon,

If you wish to drop me a PM with your current email address I’ll send it again, I think you may be able to help me with something.

If you wish to know the incident discussed, at Goose Green some Argentina prisoners asked to move munitions they knew to be unstable, in doing so they triggered a napalm canister that engulfed them in napalm, the were burning to death and no-one could have prevented it. The man who shot them put them out of their misery, it was another example of the crap that goes with war. Others with agendas of their own would seek to make more of it than that. I think I made my personal opinion clearer earlier.

Anyway, nice to speak with you once more and to put certain things behind us.

#27

Its spelled pathetic, seeing as you are so keen to pick up on other forum users English, please at least have the courtesy to spell your insults correctly.

Thanks is corrected now, I am always looking for improve my english :rolleyes:

Seeing as you seem to have difficulty grasping the point, most foreign commentators point to the Falklands War as an example of how both sides respected the rules of war. That was the point being made

Well, yea. compared with Vietnam or Korea or a more modern conflicts like Irak or Afghanistan the Falklands/Malvinas seems a kindergarten, unfortunately even in this “civilizated” conflict there was unjustified brutality also.

If that’s the incident I’ve heard about, they were critically injured and trapped inside a house that was burning down around them. The only choices facing that British guy in the accounts I’ve read (who was IIRC a medic) was to leave them to burn to death or kill them quickly.

Is not the same Pdf, check the "war crimes " topic and youll see.

#28

Perhaps not.

But at least one of your countrymen tried mercy killing during the Falklands war.

Another soldier fired a bullet into his chest to put him out of his misery, but he survived the mercy shot. He spent two years in a … hospital before he was able to return home.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,475287,00.html

Unfortunately for your position as a strong opponent of British soldiers mercy killing badly wounded Argentinians, the shot was fired into the chest of a badly wounded Argentinian soldier by another Argentinian soldier (whose proficiency in that area was similar to the proficiency of many Argentinian soldiers in other military activities).

As you say it was wrong for British soldiers to engage in mercy killing of wounded Argentinian soldiers, then it is at least equally wrong for Argentinians to engage in it on their own soldiers. In which case you should argue for the Argentinian soldier involved to be charged with attempted murder. Do you?

#29

If you wish to know the incident discussed, at Goose Green some Argentina prisoners asked to move munitions they knew to be unstable, in doing so they triggered a napalm canister that engulfed them in napalm, the were burning to death and no-one could have prevented it. The man who shot them put them out of their misery, it was another example of the crap that goes with war.

This is the event I reffered to in a previous post, I have footage of the NCO that had to decide in a split second how to act… As I said before, I have no doubts that he thought and that he did what was necessary to avoid further misery to the Argentines in flames… a soldier can not “pretend” feelings like the ones this NCO was showing… he was morally destroyed just by remembering this.

This is in a documentary from the BBC called “Falklands, Task Force South”, which I do have in VHS… unfortunatelly, my last VCR stopped working years ago.

And it brings me bad memories.

A friend of mine was a pilot and during the presidential campaign of 1988 ( or 89 I am not sure) he was flying around the country the then “candidate” to president Menem… on the political “rally” all around the country.

They had a failure on take off and thus a crash landing one day… there were no victims, Carlitos was a fantastic pilot, but the fuselagge ended up twisted in a position in which there was no possibilty for them to abandon the cockpit.

They could not come out through the windows… so as the flames advanced, there was nothing for the survivors to see more than Carlos and his co-pilot embracing themselves to face their destiny together…

I always say to myself that have I been there and with access to a weapon… I would have not let them die burning…and I wish that if something like that ever happens to me, somebody would be armed close by… and please blow my brains up before the flames catch me.

Cheers,

Pánzon.

#30

I think those of us with a realistic appreciation of such circumstances would agree with you. I certainly do.

But I think it also requires something special in another person to do it.

I’m not sure I could kill someone in that situation, least of all a close mate, although I’d want them to kill me if the situation was reversed.

It’s all very well to get judgmental about past events we weren’t present at and didn’t even witness, but I haven’t been confronted with a burning or severely wounded person with no apparent chance of survival and no means of alleviating their suffering. Although I’ve had to deal with animals in such situations and put them down, with sadness.

Unlike PK, I wouldn’t sit in moralistic or legalistic judgement on someone who acted with the best intentions in such a situation, whether towards an enemy or their own side.

#31

Thanks for the answer,

In my personal case, I would not hesitate for a split second, no matter the consecuences I would have to confront, I thought about it several times, and the images that come to my mind are terrible…

In that particular case, one of the survivors was a high ranking officer of the Argentine Federal Police, and he was loaded… but he did nothing… and rumour run on the funeral that Carlos and his Co-pilot asked to be put out of their misery… obviously, to no avail.

Pánzon.

#32

I agree, and it’s rather hollow anyone to be moralising over such actions when they have never been burdened with such decisions.

Seeing people dying in agony is not the most pleasant sight, and it’s not just the seeing, it’s the hearing, the inhuman animal-like screaming, the stinking, smelling, tasting and the devastatingly shocking. Forget the 1000 yard stare, after those experiences, one’s gaze takes in light years. No amount of movie watching can prepare one for the disturbing reality of brutally violent and mutilating death. It could have been you!

#33

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.britains-smallwars.com
21st May 1982
On the morning of the San Carlos landings a Sea King helicopter carrying Rapier missiles and escorted by a light Gazelle helicopter, armed with a pintle-mounted machine gun and pod mounted SNEB rockets, flew straight over an Argentine party, which had evacuated Port San Carlos when the landings started. The Argentines opened fire and heavy accurate machine gun fire struck the Gazelle, mortally wounding her pilot Sergeant Andy Evans. Even so, he managed to turn away from the fire and ditch in the water. The two crew men were thrown from the aircraft when it hit the water. As they struggled in the water, the same Argentines who had shot the helicopter down, opened fire on the two crew men in the water, despite their officer ordering them to cease fire.

Hello to everyone there and specially to the co-forumers that were exchanging info with me regarding this matter.

I just want to say that I have received information that confirms your sayings without a shadow of a doubt. The event happened as you and “small wars” say and it was officialy recognized by the Argentine Army.

Apparently, after the cease fire, Lt. Esteban, the officer in command of that detachment in Fanning Head was looked for by the British obviously to take revenge. The fact that his name Esteban sounded like “Estevez” ( another Lt. who died heroically during the battle for Goose Green) saved him from the wrath of the British as he was presented as “KIA”.

It is also true that he tried and tried to have his men cease fire not having much success so the British pilot certainly died.

I am sorry I doubted your says but as I said, I have irrefutable proof that things happened as you mentined.

I have also been informed that some Argentine officer was heavily mistreated after the cease fire including a “staged” firing squad. Apparently it had to do with the same episode.

Fair is fair and I am ashamed of what happened that morning, I consider that event as a consecuence of the nervous tension of the moment as we all know that those 60 Argentines were there alone and by the time they realized they had an ongoing landing, seeing half the RN landing must have been a terrible thing and thus that excess hapened.

If anyone related to the death pilot read this words, I offer my most sincere apologies as I am sure every Argentine soldier does too. People should not be shot at when defenseless and fighting for their lives.

Pánzon.

#34

Lone Ranger,

I have already “dropped” a few lines regarding your request, please understand that we are on the 26th aniversary and the minds of the people you need contact with is at the moment mourning and remembering.

Actually, the day after tomorrow is the 26th aniversary of the “baptism of fire” of the Argentine Air Force on the 1st of May of 1982 when several beloved pilots lost their life such as the then Cap. Gustavo García Cuerva and 1st Lt. José Leonidas Ardiles (cousin of “Ossie”) who confronted a section of “experten” of the NAS 801 alone as his wingman could not take off due to aircraft malfunction on take off… 1st Lt. Ardiles decided to tempt his luck alone on the mission, which speaks about the alloy of which his balls were forged on.

Answer will, if it ever gets to me, take some time, but I have not forgoten.

Pánzon.