Notice, I did not mean all members of this forum, and not all forums. But i have read quite a few post’s(not to mention some avatars) posted here that would not be acceptable by the members of a German forum.
Mate i told you to not make me laught didn’t i ? 
First Bulgaria didn’t i repeat didn’t invade Yugoslavia by that time do you know why ? because it was already occupied by soviet union and we fought because the Moscow ordered us to do so against the germans on the balkan front if i am not wrong we were part of the Ukrainian front or something excuse me if i am wrong can’t recall i it right now . For this the USSR refused to accept that we made contribution to the end of the Nazi Germany for which i am very gratefull thanks we fought for nothing . And you have to know well that if the Soviets weren’t already at the gates occupying our homeland supported by some thugs who called themselfs commies we never ever would like to be part of the so called " great " USSR , that was what the majority of the intelligent people thought by that time . For this disagreement they were send to the labour camps and beaten to the death , thank you very much great USSR , and their families expulsed and forbidden to take any work , so that is the great USSR and don’t tell me it was some local thing cause you lived great in USSR , because some germans can say the same for the Nazi Germany . 
Now I’m all ears.
Which German and now apparently other members of this forum do you mean?
As for avatars allowed on non-German forums not being allowed on German forums: So what? There are lots of Nazi symbols, including everything to do with the SS, and conduct such as Holocaust denial which are illegal in Germany but not in the rest of the world.
I wouldn’t presume to speak for modern Germans.
This discussion is not about them but about your accusations against the Wehrmacht in WWII.
Your original position was that members of the Wehrmacht were all part of the war crimes and Holocaust apparatus and therefore they were all guilty, and by implication that the whole of the German people were guilty, but you have backed away from that a little under pressure of my challenges.
Most of those people are dead now and can’t speak for themselves, so they’re an easy target to attack. But, despite your unwillingness to recognise it, the historical record contains numerous instances which contradict your assertions about the collective guilt of the Wehrmacht and the German people for the Holocaust and every other atrocity perpetrated by the Nazi regime.
Barely a third of the German electorate voted for the Nazis in the election which brought them to power, and which allowed them to remain in power by abuses of the German political system. So, two thirds of the German people didn’t support Hitler at the outset, although no doubt in the interests of self-preservation many decided to appear to support him as time went on. No doubt some also jumped on the Hitler bandwagon when Germany was in the ascendant in WWII. And no doubt many retained their lack of support for or opposition to the Nazis.
Do you think that the Nazis worked out some system of mind reading that ensured that nobody in the last group was conscripted into the German armed forces? If not, then it follows that not everybody in the Wehrmacht, whether Heer or other armed services, was a Nazi supporter. It is irrational, unjust, and wrong to lump them in with those members of the German armed forces who were Nazi supporters and who willingly participated in Nazi expansionism, war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Mate, I’m not disputing any of that.
I was just responding to freyir_33’s use of the word ‘pogrom’ to illustrate my point that the Nazis didnt’ invent anti-Semitism, and that it had a long history in Europe. Which certainly wasn’t limited to Russia but applied to varying degrees in all European countries.
The Nazis may have opened the floodgates on anti-Semitism but, contrary to what I perceive as freyir_33’s position, they didn’t dam up the water behind the floodgates. That was a process which took centuries of anti-Semitism in all of Europe.
Freyir_33 attributes the practical basis of the Holocaust to the Wehrmacht. For the reasons I’ve given previously, I disagree, not least because there was as much or more complicity in it in some occupied countries than anything the Wehrmacht did, apart from occupying the country and giving the locals the opportunity to vent their spleen on the local Jews.
You promised to me not spread a Nazis bul…t any more?
And what do we have now?
the Nazis blunder about COmmunist/Jewish bolshevism crimes( that in fact was the same in Goebbels tems).
If you are going to tell about Holodomore, ostensibly organized by “Red Army” in Ukraine , just open the thread.
First Bulgaria didn’t i repeat didn’t invade Yugoslavia by that time do you know why ? because it was already occupied by soviet union
You invaided Yugoslavia even BEFORE the Moscow even was adble to order you anything.
Just read a bit more than the doctor Goebbels diaries:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II#Axis_Powers_.281941.E2.80.931944.29
On 20 April, the period of Bulgarian passivity ended when the Bulgarian Army entered the Aegean region. The goal was to gain an Aegean Sea outlet in Thrace and Eastern Macedonia. The Bulgarians occupied territory between the Struma River and a line of demarcation running through Alexandroupoli and Svilengrad west of Maritsa. Included in the area occupied were the cities of Alexandroupoli (Дедеагач, Dedeagach), Komotini (Гюмюрджина, Gyumyurdzhina), Serres (Сяр, Syar), Xanthi (Ксанти), Drama (Драма) and Kavala (Кавала) and the islands of Thasos and Samothrace, as well as almost all of what is today the Republic of Macedonia and much of eastern Serbia. During the spring of 1943, the Bulgarian government, after protests led by the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and Dimitar Peshev M.P., succeeded in saving Bulgarian Jews from being sent to Nazi concentration camps. However, the Bulgarian troops rounded up all Jews in Greek Macedonia and Vardar Macedonia and sent them to Auschwitz.
despite the lack of official declarations of war by both sides, the Bulgarian Navy was involved in a number of skirmishes with the Soviet Black Sea Fleet, which attacked Bulgarian shipping. Besides this, Bulgarian armed forces garrisoned in the Balkans battled various resistance groups. The Bulgarian government was forced by the Germans to declare a token war on the United Kingdom and the United States near the end of 1941, an act which resulted in the bombing of Sofia and other Bulgarian cities by Allied aircraft
So Bulgaria pretty well invided the Serbia , Makedonia and Grees.
For this the USSR refused to accept that we made contribution to the end of the Nazi Germany for which i am very gratefull thanks we fought for nothing .
No, you wrong ,USSR didn’t not forget the Bulgarian prticipation in Allied side.
Coz the Southern Dobruja hass been passed to Bulgaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Dobruja
But you right, USSR still refused to accept your participation in cruel occupation of Serbia and contrubution to Holocaus in Makedonia.
What a stoopid Soviet mistake!!
And you have to know well that if the Soviets weren’t already at the gates occupying our homeland supported by some thugs who called themselfs commies we never ever would like to be part of the so called " great " USSR , that was what the majority of the intelligent people thought by that time .
Now you are making me to laugh:)Bulgarian part of USSR?
Never heard of this nonsense.
Bulgaria was a trator in Russian minds, how do not to understand that simple fact?
Bulgarian betrayal was ESPECIALY sensetive to Russian , becouse there were a Russian Army who liberated the Bulgaria from cruel Ottoman Empire occupation.
Say it to your foolish “intelligent people”
For this disagreement they were send to the labour camps and beaten to the death , thank you very much great USSR , and their families expulsed and forbidden to take any work , so that is the great USSR and don’t tell me it was some local thing cause you lived great in USSR , because some germans can say the same for the Nazi Germany .
Good.
Traitors have deserved what they’ve got.
They so loved alliance with Great GErmany- so they have to love the alliance with USSR:)
Not trying to jump into your argument here, Chevan, but I thought you could only be a traitor if betrayed your own country?
Also, did Bulgaria have any kind of treaty pre-WW2 that bound them to the Soviet Union and banned them from entering war against them?
But we migh to ask …the jews themself mate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht
There is just humble list of crimes, commited by Wehrmach , including the MASS killing of Jew and Civils, raping of woman!!!, execution of POWs and many other nasty things.
However a number of high Wehrmacht officers stood trial for war crimes. OKW commander-in-chief Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel and chief of operations staff Alfred Jodl were indicted and tried for war crimes by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1946. Both were convicted of all charges, sentenced to death and executed by hanging. While the tribunal declared that the Gestapo, SD and SS (including the Waffen-SS) were inherently criminal organizations, the court did not reach the same conclusion with respect to the Wehrmacht General Staff and High Command. This was seen by many in the German public as exonerating the Wehrmacht’s role in war crimes.
So question is indeed NOT that simple.
IT’s just matter of semantic , my friend Schuultz.
Also, did Bulgaria have any kind of treaty pre-WW2 that bound them to the Soviet Union and banned them from entering war against them?
No, and did the USSR have the any king of treaty not to invide Bulgaria in 1944 banned them to install here the pro-soviet govenment?
No?
Um…
Um, you’re out of your mind. No one here has ever been “bigoted” or “uncritical” and we’ve, as in Rising Sun* and the rest of the great, omnipotent Mod staff here have crushed Neo-Nazi trolls and other idiot apologists as well as Holocaust deniers or racists and have questioned the idiot policies of even their/our own gov’ts.
There’s a difference between acknowledging and dwelling on it. And you sir seem to like to dwell with a heightened sense of self-importance and inflated moral vanity. talking about how bad Germans acted during WWII doesn’t make you a great person…
I’d also like to ask you your opinion on the Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict…
Are the tables turned? Is it okay for the Israel Defense Forces to blast away at a few guerrillas in civilian areas killing hundreds?
Exactly!
The war and Holocaust have been over for nearly 65 years, and many generations.
It’s time to let it go for nations which have acknowledged and tried to deal with their war past, as Germany has.
That was never my intention either, exploring and discussing
history was.
It has been a counterproductive behavior of Israel to Bomb Gaza, but any nation has the leaders they deserve, and the Palestinians did Choose Hamas themselves.
Historical research on the theme Holocaust will not be over as long as not all files all available, and as long as murderers like the Danish SS man Soeren kamit still being protected by the German constitution. So Germany still has responsibilities, and they are fulfilling them as god as they can, but they are not above their own constitution.
I understand that “dwelling” on Historical subjects like the war crimes of the Wermacht is not wanted in this forum, even if “dwelling” on subjects
like Anti Communism and anti Slavism or Asianism seems to be accepted here.
Cheers
www.flammenogcitronen.dk
Mate you are completely out of your mind You are on the side of USSR and you trust Goebbels That’s really great :mrgreen: Second my dear friend why would we invade Yugoslavia ? did we take anything from it ? NO , simply there were GERMAN soldiers in it so don’t make the history pages different please . Second don’t call part of my nation foolish "intelligent nation " , third i don’t give a damn what USSR , Russia think about so called imaginery bulgarian traitor , why we were traitors , because we didn’t obey to "mother russia " ? because we wanted our people back into our homeland ?
Third for Southern Dobrjudja don’t dare to take that to your cause , it was given to us by treaty and with help from Hitler not from Josef Stalin your beloved murderer . Fourth there wasn’t any other Holocoust other than against the bulgarian minority backed by the serbians which you so much love , as for the NAzi blunder about the Soviet Union crimes ask Gourbachev or your "allies " from the west they will tell you what you did for 45 years . And what you call Nazi b… t is actually the truth and don’t dare to educate me about the bulgarian history it’s no longer in your power to do so .
One more thing to honor the germans , hungarians , bulgarians , rumanians , italians i don’t think make me a Nazi so don’t associeate me with this . Have a great day and don’t write more about bulgarian history please otherwise i will always say the truth which i know better as i am bulgarian .
Damn , Nick , why are you talking about Israel?
What to hell it has common with THIS thread or ww2 at all?
Are you going to learn , is the mr freyir Zionist or not?
Me , trust to rusophobian Goebbels?
Now you are go out of mind.
You did spread his ideas about commies crimes just PAGE ago.
That’s really great :mrgreen: Second my dear friend why would we invade Yugoslavia ? did we take anything from it ?
Sure you wanted “anything”.Only for YOUR education, my friend.
Namely:Greek and Serbs Makedonia.
NO , simply there were GERMAN soldiers in it so don’t make the history pages different please
Oh really it was just a Utter German soldiers everywhere:)
How i havn’t guessed:)?
Well at least you did say there were “dressed up” NKVD officer as one polish friend of mine said:)
. Second don’t call part of my nation foolish "intelligent nation " , third i don’t give a damn what USSR
Well if part of your nation REALLY did dream for Bulgaria to be the part of USSR, as you told - they were a finished IDIOTS.
, Russia think about so called imaginery bulgarian traitor , why we were traitors , because we didn’t obey to "mother russia " ? because we wanted our people back into our homeland ?
No becouse you joined to Inviders and Russian mortal enemy- Nazy Germany, whose ideology considered the Russian as “subhumans”.
And you fought with Yugoslavians, our COMMON allies.
This is very enough NOT to trust Bulgaria any more.
Third for Southern Dobrjudja don’t dare to take that to your cause , it was given to us by treaty and with help from Hitler not from Josef Stalin your beloved murderer .
Just don’t try to seem more ignorant then you are, please.
The Southern Dobrjudja has been FINALY passed to Bulgaria in …1947 , when your favorite Hitler was dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II#Consequences_and_results
The Paris Peace Treaties of 1947 confirmed the incorporation of Southern Dobruja into Bulgaria during the War, thus making Bulgaria the only German ally that increased its pre-War territory. The occupied parts of the Aegean region and Vardar Macedonia remaining within the borders of Bulgaria were returned, with 150,000 Bulgarians being expelled from Western Thrace.
It was USSR ( namely murder Josef Stalin) who has agreed with ROmanians to pass that land to Bulgaria after the war.
Fourth there wasn’t any other Holocoust other than against the bulgarian minority backed by the serbians which you so much love ,
There were a Holocaust in Makedonia , where you brave soldiers pretty well rounded all the jews to send them to Auswitz.
What a nice friendly cooperation with Nazis:)
Unlike Serbs who fought with inviders, you pretty loved them.
as for the NAzi blunder about the Soviet Union crimes ask Gourbachev or your "allies " from the west they will tell you what you did for 45 years .
And what you call Nazi b… t is actually the truth and don’t dare to educate me about the bulgarian history it’s no longer in your power to do so .
Sure all what Nazis told was the TRUE:)
Just like as the their rase-hate theories that you obvioulsy like to believe.
And I really don’t care to educate you , coz even the British Wiki( more or less objective source) couldn’t.
I just worry about others members, who migh to take your fantasies as the True.
One more thing to honor the germans , hungarians , bulgarians , rumanians , italians i don’t think make me a Nazi so don’t associeate me with this .
does me associate you with them?
No, it’s youself associate you with Nazis ideology, repeating that old points of Goebbels propogand.
Have a great day and don’t write more about bulgarian history please otherwise i will always say the truth which i know better as i am bulgarian .
Oh, i’m so scary.
Now the Bulgarian will say the “true”, ignoring the obvious historical facts of nacis-bulgarian cooperation , according the Nazis ideology.
Lets make the fun…
Goebbels speaks up on Bulgaria:
4 december 1940 (Wed.)
“And apart from that they hope for something from Russia – quite wrongly, as will finaly become clear. Russia has committed some tactical blunders in Bulgaria, which wants to join the Three-Power pact. She has tried to mobilise the streets against the King. This one must never do. Now Sofia is in a fix. The Bulgarians should have joined immediately. Moscow is unfurling the Pan-Slavic banner in the Balkans, and that is also a bad move. But she will never do anything against us – from fear.”
26 march 1941 (Wed.)
“Quiet, determined mood in Bulgaria. Our troops are given a hearty welcome in the countryside. Some pro-English feeling in Sofia. And a strong inclination towards Russia. But not a serious danger.”
6 april 1941 (Sun)
“The entire Serbian conspirator-clique must be toppled. The Fuhrer does not fear Russia. He has taken sufficient precautions. And if she attacks, then the sooner the better. Russia has already announced Treaty of Friendship with Belgrade. If we were not to act now, then the entire Balkans, including Turkey, could slip away. This must be prevented. Hungary and Bulgaria will march shoulder to shoulder with us. Not much, but something.”
You blokes from Eastern Europe are welcome to continue your debate about Yugoslavia etc, but I think it would be better to split that discussion from this thread if it is likely to be continued. Should I split it and, if so, what would be a suitable title?
And if there are to be more posts on the topic, please don’t let them descend into name calling and other unhelpful comments but instead have a reasoned historical debate.
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