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#41

How the Americans did it.

Sirs:

You feel that the Russian soldier [TIME, Aug. 20 (1945)] “thrusting a fistful of rubles” while “liberating” a German bicycle is “confused perhaps by the peculiar customs of an acquisitive society.”

You may be right. For in all similar “liberations” by American troops of German bicycles, automobiles and household goods which we have witnessed, the rubles were entirely omitted.

(T/4) PHILIP JOHNSON (T/5) SIGMUND H. STEMBLER (T/5) GEORGE GRANT CARR (T/4) ROBERT B. NOTESTEIN (T/5) ROBERT J. SHAUGHNESSY

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,776125-4,00.html

#42

Ha Ha Ha
Excellent collection of photos( i have never seen it befor):slight_smile:
Now we know for sure that Germans girls prefered the mongols instead the allies soldiers.
This is not surprising ,if keep in mind the fact that the Goebels propoganda PRed them as super/mega sexy heroes , who ready “to make love” with everything that move.Even the 80 years grannies:):smiley:
The allies soldiers were chikens in comparition with soviet ones in this aspect:)

#43

It is funny that Mongols are literally translated as big, great ones. The word Bolsheviks has the similar meaning.

#44

Eahhh! And note the battle drum and the horn that the Mongolian horde is using to evoke the mighty shadow spirits before the battle. Spooky stuff… :neutral:

#45

Kato, the life it self in fact is just one huge conspiracy against itself. :slight_smile:

#46

And call the wild syberian bears for the help…

#47

I thought Soviets were Allied soldiers…

And, should you really trivialize mass-rapings like this? And not all of the rape victims were women…

#48

Really?
So why mst Churchill had ordered to develop the plan “Unthinkble” to attack the “ally” Nick?
From of pure humanism?
Its not me to tell you about:)

And, should you really trivialize mass-rapings like this? And not all of the rape victims were women…

Yea some of victims were the mens:)
As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

#49

Well, that Churchill could be a tad silly at times. But “Unthinkable” was just contingency planning, which is hardly unusual. And I’m sure the benevolent Stalin never, ever had the Red Army draw up War plans against the West prior to the end of WWII?

Yea some of victims were the mens:)
As i say they raped all what moved:)
and I/m not trivilize, becouse you believe in this quite without any doubts, right?
You are the one more victim of dr Goebbels.

Actually, I believe in Beaver.:slight_smile: Who also documents German atrocities against the Soviets in the book “The Battle for Stalingrad,” which I recently picked up, I presume?

And of course I believe it without any doubts. Nor do I doubt that Goebbels is culpable in the rapes because he helped start the cycle…

#50

Goebbels wasn’t around to witness what happened after May 1945.

For a well researched and referenced account, there’s about seventy pages (second or third chapter ??) in Norman M. Naimark’s The Russians in Germany : A history of the Soviet Zone of occupation, 1945-1949,Cambridge (Mass), Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1995.

There was a long history of Soviet rapes, often followed by murder of the victims, in Germany, and east of it as the Soviets advanced (a serious problem in Hungary, from memory), and they were still a problem as late as 1947. They weren’t representative of all Soviet soldiers but reflected the attitudes or poor leadership in some units and formations, to marshal level, and going right up to Stalin until he realised that alienating the potentially productive civilian population in some areas by fucking them to death wasn’t in the USSR’s interests.

Like it or not, some Soviet soldiers and units were just raping and pillaging for a couple of years in Berlin and there are documented accounts of Soviets raping very young girls, aged twelve for sure but I think down to eight or nine, and women in their eighties.

These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.

#51

So try to find this mythical plan for us dear Nick.
If you can:)

Actually, I believe in Beaver.:slight_smile: Who also documents German atrocities against the Soviets in the book “The Battle for Stalingrad,” which I recently picked up, I presume?

This is not “Stalingrad” but “Berlin 1945:downfall” that i recently have read also.
Where BEvoour tell about “hupotetic” Stalins plans toward west.
But it was his menthal conclusions- not a “documents”.

And of course I believe it without any doubts. Nor do I doubt that Goebbels is culpable in the rapes because he helped start the cycle…

But i still see a serious objections.
Don’t forget the book of historians there are just a versions.
For instance the so called “historian” Resun/Suvorov wrote a utter bul…t but many in west still believe him:)

#52

Goes in to my reading Queue after the Resun’s “Ledokol” and Doctor Goebels diary 1941.

These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.

Yes. Those cases were numerous. But again, you can call me whatever but for me it makes difference to know if it was 20K, 200K or 2000K rape victims.
Obviously we will never know the number but we should try to comprehend the scale. Because the scale of the events tells us something about the what it was like back than.

#53

I’ve read the plan as I posted in a thread about it if you recall. And I said “contigency” meaning it was not a definitive plan meant to be carried out like a hypothetical “what if.”

I never said it didn’t exist…

This is not “Stalingrad” but “Berlin 1945:downfall” that i recently have read also.
Where BEvoour tell about “hupotetic” Stalins plans toward west.
But it was his menthal conclusions- not a “documents”.

But i still see a serious objections.
Don’t forget the book of historians there are just a versions.
For instance the so called “historian” Resun/Suvorov wrote a utter bul…t but many in west still believe him:)

I never said “mental” figments of Churchill, I said “war plans.” Every country has hypothetical war plans to what they perceive as potential threats. A Canadian Army officer even wrote up a plan to invade the United States as late as after WWI, with the help of the Royal Navy. Does that mean these plans were seriously considered as a course of action? No…

And I’d bet the Soviets had a similar war plan to keep going West, if they felt threatened enough. And if the US-UK did attack the Soviet Union, they would have encounter a hell of a lot of their own equipment types and materials…

My point is that Beaver wrote both books and is not some mere Nazi-apologist, crackpot cunt like David Irving. He has documented the atrocities on all sides and cannot be distilled down to some political agendist out to defame the Red Army --as you infer. I suggest you read RS*'s post above carefully…

#54

It was a special order of Stavka where the Crimes agains civils population have been persecuted.
This order have been published in the aipril of 1945 befor BAttle of Berlin my friend.
BTW many soldiers have been judged by military tribunal for that.
So this is wrong that Command did nothing.
They did.

Like it or not, some Soviet soldiers and units were just raping and pillaging for a couple of years in Berlin and there are documented accounts of Soviets raping very young girls, aged twelve for sure but I think down to eight or nine, and women in their eighties.

raping the childrens?
And why their parents did not call for the soviet civil authorities?
As i know after 1946 there were civils authrorities in the Berlin.
So today we could find a hundred or “cases” and yet invent a millions…This is not a matter.
Besides how could you prove that girls did not do it voluntary , say for food?
You as as a lawyer should know to prove the crime this is not enough just tell of victims.

These were widespread and frequent events, and vastly more so than by Allied troops.

But soviets at least did not fire them by hundreds a thousands in firestorms.
So stop portray a “human” allies :)They did other nasy things.
But we could not cll them all as a “criminals” right?

#55

What a thread about it?
Could you link this thread please.

I never said “mental” figments of Churchill, I said “war plans.” Every country has hypothetical war plans to what they perceive as potential threats. A Canadian Army officer even wrote up a plan to invade the United States as late as after WWI, with the help of the Royal Navy. Does that mean these plans were seriously considered as a course of action? No…

Well you 've forund the equal example:)
The Churchill and Canadian officer:)

And I’d bet the Soviets had a similar war plan to keep going West, if they felt threatened enough. And if the US-UK did attack the Soviet Union, they would have encounter a hell of a lot of their own equipment types and materials…

Unfortinatelly my friend you again repeat the old…
You did not even read the plan Unthinkable, have i guessed?
Becouse there is the REAL ANALYSYS of the military situation in the Europe in the 1945.
The SOVIETS could physically, military and any other sense could NOT attack FIRST:)
Be a good Nick, just admit my arguments.

My point is that Beaver wrote both books and is not some mere Nazi-apologist, crackpot cunt like David Irving. He has documented the atrocities on all sides and cannot be distilled down to some political agendist out to defame the Red Army --as you infer. I suggest you read RS*'s post above carefully…

You have missed.
The BEvour is very popular authors, and as any such lewel authror he care makes their book interesting and truly fascinating.
Besides he used the works of other historiand (just look at the end of the book) he usially didn’t work with first documents.
Trying to make his book interesting- he focused on what people in West LIKE to read.
So he just repeat the OLD clishes in the “new stories”.And He repeats the old legends.
His books could seems for you, westerns, as actually Original and Documented.
But i personally found a mistake in his book “Stalingrad” .
When he wrote epicode about Battle for Grain Factory, he used the memours of Soviet authros-veteran of that battle.
But he essentially distorted this events.Becouse i’ve read the original book - i found out a serious mistakes in Bevoor’s book.This is just a little episode of how Bevoor write his books.
He is talented authors, however hes talent is appearing in literature rather then in real history.
SO the OLD NAzy bu…t about 80-years grammas who have been raped by soviets - has been repeated by the Bevoour in his book Berlin.Downfall:)
What a great historian:)

#56

As you obviously know more about this book by not reading it than I do after having read it, could you tell me why it is deserving of such contempt?

#57

If you read Naimark, you would get a very good idea of the scale. From primary sources. To the extent that such things were documented at all.

And it might surprise you.

#58

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5639

Well you 've forund the equal example:)
The Churchill and Canadian officer:)

Yes, as they were both just as likely…

Unfortinatelly my friend you again repeat the old…
You did not even read the plan Unthinkable, have i guessed?
Becouse there is the REAL ANALYSYS of the military situation in the Europe in the 1945.
The SOVIETS could physically, military and any other sense could NOT attack FIRST:)
Be a good Nick, just admit my arguments.

Um, really? The Soviets outnumbered the Allies in some key areas…

And attack by either side after such a war was highly unlikely…

You have missed.
The BEvour is very popular authors, and as any such lewel authror he care makes their book interesting and truly fascinating.
Besides he used the works of other historiand (just look at the end of the book) he usially didn’t work with first documents.
Trying to make his book interesting- he focused on what people in West LIKE to read.
So he just repeat the OLD clishes in the “new stories”.And He repeats the old legends.
His books could seems for you, westerns, as actually Original and Documented.
But i personally found a mistake in his book “Stalingrad” .
When he wrote epicode about Battle for Grain Factory, he used the memours of Soviet authros-veteran of that battle.
But he essentially distorted this events.Becouse i’ve read the original book - i found out a serious mistakes in Bevoor’s book.This is just a little episode of how Bevoor write his books.
He is talented authors, however hes talent is appearing in literature rather then in real history.
SO the OLD NAzy bu…t about 80-years grammas who have been raped by soviets - has been repeated by the Bevoour in his book Berlin.Downfall:)
What a great historian:)

Oh, okay. So hardly anyone was raped in Berlin? Got’cha. :rolleyes: This is getting tedious. So I guess the only ones that ever suffered in the correct death tolls according to generally accepted history are the Russian people and the Germans killed by “evil” Western Allied bombing, eh Chevan?

So, how exactly did Beevor “distort” those events? Specifically? As I am perusing my previously unopened edition, I notice that one of his primary sources is the Soviet military dispatches written by one Alekandr Shcherbakov, “the head of the political department of the Red Army in Moscow.” Probably a capitalist subversive and fascist agent! :mad:

#59

I said what I ment. I will try to read it after “Ledokol” (started yesterday) and Geobel’s diary 1941 which I ordered in the library. I read Geobes diary for 1944-45 - very fascinating! Can recommend.

I had to read your post several times in a row until I realised why you replied this way. :slight_smile:

#60

I am sorry.

I thought you were dismissing it as an unreliable source, which I think you’ve worked out is what motivated my comments.

I’d be interested in your comments once you’ve read Naimark. I might need to borrow it from the library to refresh my mind.