It was Chevran that brought him up here: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122002&postcount=48
Mentioned reading him a few posts down, sorry for the confusion…
That is OK. I am not a spoon of honey either. 
Ha-ha-ha! What a nonsense! And a lousy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for own words… Those statements mean exactly what the author intended to say!
And I really didn’t pay much attention to the statements because I think we’re talking about photographs here. And, the best answer I can give is that I do believe the pictures show victims of the aftermath of Soviet occupation…
What do you mean you “believe”. Strange… I was under impression that you were “just looking at the photos…”.
So either you just took photos without knowing what they depict and trew in as showing Soviet crimes.
Or you read the captions under the pictures. I guess the later is valid.
So I did a natural thing i.e. I asked what you think of the description. You, instead of answering openly, tell me bollocks that the description is poorly worded. Do not worry the site writer did good job expressing presicely his opinion on the discussed matter.
But since you ask Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?
“Wholesale”? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or “sweeping: ignoring distinctions;”?
But that would be IMHO - “nearly 70% of German woman” and “They raped every German female from eight to 80”.
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.
Because that is sort of a question you keep dancing around and avoiding answering definitately in this thread…
First of all this thread is not exactly about what we are discussing right now. It is about specific tangible peice of document that is intresting to analyse. And my impression is that this is what you are avoiding answering about.
No offense!
MMmmmm…honey!
Ha-ha-ha! What a nonsense! And a lousy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for own words… Those statements mean exactly what the author intended to say!
Who are you talking too? Why ever would those words be my responsibility?
What do you mean you “believe”. Strange… I was under impression that you were “just looking at the photos…”.
So either you just took photos without knowing what they depict and trew in as showing Soviet crimes.
Or you read the captions under the pictures. I guess the later is valid.
I used Google to get the pictures, and used the captions only to verify that the victims were Germans…
Which I guess shows that while we have photos of apparently a Russian soldier tugging with a German woman over a bike, we also have some photographic evidence of the victims of the Red Army’s breakdown in discipline…
The captions are as I said, obviously not written by someone who learned to speak English…
So I did a natural thing i.e. I asked what you think of the description. You, instead of answering openly, tell me bollocks that the description is poorly worded. Do not worry the site writer did good job expressing presicely his opinion on the discussed matter.
Do you have a point with this?
What do you think of the descriptions?
“Wholesale”? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or “sweeping: ignoring distinctions;”?
But that would be IMHO - “nearly 70% of German woman” and “They raped every German female from eight to 80”.
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.
I have seen interviews with German women that reported that in fact that the Soviet soldiers did in fact abduct women. I certainly don’t know about “every women” from “eight to 80.” but perhaps they missed some? The statement is obviously not literally true, but certainly the majority of women that were caught, certainly all of the young, attractive women that ran across any numbers of Soviet soldiers, seem to have been molested…
Do you think that I am correct, or no?
First of all this thread is not exactly about what we are discussing right now. It is about specific tangible peice of document that is intresting to analyse. And my impression is that this is what you are avoiding answering about.
No offense!
Edit So, are you going to answer my questions, or just ask them and harp on some meaningless point?
Read your response closer - thank you for your answer…
Nick might have confused it with your reference to Goebbels diary at #52 and following.
Well, I do have nice legs…
Sure…
I don’t like the hairs:)
But Nick it seem like the his legs.
Now, seriously, why do you say that Birstein isn’t a reliable source?
He is such “reliable” source like D.Duke in the USA:)
Has you seen some of his fascinating articles?
Obviously there is an understanding that you and Egorka share about him and the other writers you mentioned that make them the Soviet equivalents of Irving, but why?
Well each country has own fifth column.
But if in the USSR they were from Left - in the West they are from Right.
All of them are just biased peoples.
This is not mean they wrote a UNTRUE or events that has never happend:)But you in the west call their vertions as the “Conspiracy theories”.
Do you know what i mean?
We also have a bit of sick peoples who is sure that “they only write true about Soviet history”
As you know thier points were supporting in the West becouse of certain political reasons.
In the USSR the KGB puted some of most crazy to te Lunatic asulums.
You in the West sentence them to the prison ( like the history with D Irving).
So the Birshteit is one of them.
He use such qiute biased authors like Politkovskaj ( who was famous of her rushophobians articles in the west).
They try to portray thier work as the “criticize of official russian power”.
But Revisionists and extremists in the West also just “criticize their authorities”
SO our left-wing Extremits( different “human right activist” who made political glory via the critic of power and ets).
The other sort of Extremist are the who has run to the west during the cold war ( thay mostly belong to one certain Ethnical group:) ) and now trolling “true” about soviet life.
I’ve been looking for an internet copy of App’s Ravishing the Women of Conquered Europe, but this is the nearest I can find.
And, yes App became a revisionist later in his career, but that doesn’t necessarily undermine his earlier work.
Dr. Austin J. App, a professor and scholar of English literature at Catholic University, the University of Scranton, and LaSalle College, among others,risked career and livelihood to bring the truth of the rape of Europe’s women to light.
In April, 1946, when he published this work he was a lone voice crying out for justice in an America still high on war propaganda and on a “victory” that in the later Cold War years and after would be seen clearly as a defeat for America and the West as much as it was for Germany.
The only army to rise above the raping and pillaging were the Germans.
Those of us who research WW ll, often come across the commentary that what the Soviets did to Germany, was done in retribution for what Germany did to the Soviets during the Barbarossa invasion.
However, there is nothing written claiming mass rape committed by Germans.
No one has ever come forward with first-hand accounts or even horror stories depicting the events that rivaled those that occurred in places such as Nemmersdorf.
The only work mentioning anything approaching an German orgy was written in “Hitler’s Army” by Omer Bartov.
He briefly mentions the handful of soldiers involved were court-marshaled, if I recall.If rape was so widespread by the Germans, there would most assuredly be more written on the topic.
But as we all know by now…In post-war Europe, all one had to do is claim the Germans did something and ir was accepted as fact.Here is the relevant portion of Austin App’s booklet as published in 1946
Ravishing the Women of Conquered Europe
By Austin AppAs the Red Army advanced toward her in 1945, the city of Berlin had become a city virtually without men. Out of a civilian population of 2,700,000, 2,000,000 were women. It is small wonder that the fear of sexual attack raced through the city like a plague. Doctors were besieged by patients seeking information on the quickest way to commit suicide, and poison was in great demand.
In Berlin stood a charity institution, the Haus Dehlem, an orphanage, maternity hospital, and foundling home. Soviet soldiers entered the home, and repeatedly raped pregnant women and women who had just given birth. This was not an isolated incident. No one will ever know how many women were raped, but doctors’ estimates run as high as 100,000 for the city of Berlin alone, their ages ranging from 10 to 70.
On March 24, 1945, our “noble Soviet allies” entered Danzig. A 50-year-old Danzig teacher reported that her niece, 15, was raped seven times, and her other niece, 22, was raped fifteen times. A Soviet officer told a group of women to seek safety in the Cathedral. Once they were securely locked inside, the beasts of Bolshevism entered, and ringing the bells and playing the organ, “celebrated” a foul orgy through the night, raping all the women, some more than thirty times. A catholic pastor in Danzig declared “They violated even eight-year-old girls and shot boys who tried to shield their mothers.”
The Most Reverend Bernard Griffin, British Archbishop, made a tour of Europe to study conditions there, and reported “In Vienna alone they raped 100,000 women, not once but many times, including girls not yet in their teens, and aged women.”
A Lutheran pastor in Germany, in a letter of August 7, 1945, to the Bishop of Chichester, England, describes how a fellow pastor’s “two daughters and a grandchild (ten years of age) suffer from gonorrhea, [as a] result of rape” and how “Mrs. N. was killed when she resisted an attempt to rape her,” while her daughter was “raped and deported, allegedly to Omsk, Siberia, for indoctrination.”
The day after our noble Soviet allies conquered Neisse, Silesia, 182 Catholic nuns were raped. In the diocese of Kattowitz 66 pregnant nuns were counted. In one convent when the Mother Superior and her assistant tried to protect the younger nuns with outstretched arms, they were shot down. A priest reported in “Nord Amerika” magazine for November 1, 1945, that he knew “several villages where all the women, even the aged and girls as young as twelve, were violated daily for weeks by the Russians.”
Sylvester Michelfelder, a Lutheran pastor, wrote in the Christian Century “Bands of irresponsible bandits in Russian or American uniforms pillage and rob the trains. Women and girls are violated in sight of everyone. They are stripped of their clothes.”
On April 27, 1946 Vatican Radio charged that in the Russian occupation zone of Eastern Germany cries of help were going up “from girls and women who are being brutally raped and whose bodily and spiritual health is completely shaken.”
The rapists did not all wear a red star. John Dos Passos, writing in LIFE magazine for January 7, 1946, quotes a “red-faced major” as saying that “Lust, liquor and loot are the soldier’s pay.” A serviceman wrote to TIME magazine for November 12, 1945 “Many a sane American family would recoil in horror if they knew how ‘Our Boys’ conduct themselves, with such complete callousness in human relationships over here.” An army sergeant wrote “Our own Army and the British Army …have done their share of looting and raping… This offensive attitude among our troops is not at all general, but the percentage is large enough to have given our Army a pretty black name, and we too are considered an army of rapists.”
An Italian survivor of American bombing states that Black American troops were stationed in Naples, where they were allowed by their superiors free access to poor, hungry, and humiliated Italian women. The result of this interracial rape and sexual slavery was the production of a generation of pitiable mixed-race children, a legacy of the brutal conqueror.
According to an AP dispatch of September 12, 1945, entitled “German-American Marriages Forbidden”, the Franklin Roosevelt government instructed its soldiers that marriage with the inferior Germans was absolutely forbidden, but those having illegitimate children by German women, whose husbands and boyfriends were conveniently dead or held as prisoners or slave laborers, could count on allowance money. And, according to TIME magazine of September 17, 1945, the government provided these soldiers with an estimated 50 million condoms PER MONTH, and graphically instructed them as to their use. For all practical purposes, our soldiers were being told - “Teach these Germans a lesson – and have a wonderful time!” Such were the great crusaders who brought “democracy” to Europe.
continued
For the Americans and British, open rape was not as common as among the Soviet troops. The Soviets simply raped any female from eight years up and if a German man or woman killed a Russian soldier for anything, including rape, 50 Germans were killed for each incident, as reported in TIME magazine, June 11, 1945. But for most of our boys, having that “wonderful time” depended a great deal on the “cooperation” of the German and Austrian women. From the starving and the homeless, of course, sexual “cooperation” could be bought for a few pennies or a mouthful of food. I don’t think we ought to dignify this arrangement with any other than its true name of sexual slavery.
The Christian Century for December 5, 1945 reported “the American provost marshal, Lieutenant Colonel Gerald F. Beane, said that rape presents no problem for the military police because a bit of food, a bar of chocolate, or a bar of soap seem to make rape unnecessary. Think that over, if you want to understand the situation in Germany.” The Weekly Review of London, for October 25, 1945, described it thus: “Young girls, unattached, wander about and freely offer themselves for food or bed. …very simply, they have one thing left to sell, and they sell it… …as a way of dying it may be worse than starvation, but it will put off dying for months – or even years.”
Dr. George N. Shuster, president of Hunter College, wrote in the Catholic Digest of December 1945 after a visit to the American Zone of occupation, “You have said it all when you say that Europe is now a place where woman has lost her perennial fight for decency because the indecent alone live.” By official policy, the Allies created conditions in which the only German mothers who could keep their young children alive were those who themselves or whose sisters became mistresses of the occupying troops. Our own officials admittedly brought the Germans down to a total daily food intake less than that of an American breakfast, a level which leads to slow but sure death unless relieved.
According to testimony given in the United States Senate on July 17, 1945, when the colonial French troops under Eisenhower’s command, presumably mostly Africans, entered the German city of Stuttgart, they herded German women into the subways and raped some two thousand of them. In Stuttgart alone, troops under Eisenhower’s command raped more women in one week than troops under German command raped in all of France for four entire years. In fact, of all the major belligerents in World War II, the German troops had by far the smallest record of rape and looting. In fact, the German army’s incidence of rape in all of Germany’s occupied territories was even lower than that of American troops stationed on American soil!
According to the International News Service in London, January 31, 1946, when American soldier’s wives were brought to Germany, they were given special authorization to wear military uniforms because “the GIs did not want their wives mistaken for Fraeuleins by other occupation troops.” A writer for the New York World Telegram January 21, 1945 stated “Americans look on the German women as loot, just like cameras and Lugers.” Dr. G. Stewart, in a health statement submitted to General Eisenhower, reported that in the first six months of American occupation, venereal disease jumped to twenty times its former level in Germany.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8792
Oi really you have no idea:)?
dg Goebbels informed German population next day after the bombing raid.
And Swizeland press repeated it.
And I’ve never really taken Goebbel’s word for anything, nor is he my source. I’m not even the one that brought him up! Nobody is citing his diary except for Egorka trying to prove some amorphous point…
Oh said naive Nick, who just recently linked the pro-fascist site with Goebbels “documents and photos” of soviet activity in the Nemmensdorf:)
BTW, I have no idea how often it needs to be stated that Goebbels was dead when these events took place…So, your point of repeatedly bringing him up is what again?
The photos that you have posted have been shoted during the Goebbels life.
The Soviets only began to restore order when things got out of hand, and no one has said that is was the entire Red Army. BTW, nobody is accusing this of only being a problem with the Red Army. But certainly, there was a penchant for looking the other way that started with Stalin…
Stalin have no relation to the terror.
The acts of terror actually has been commited during the firsts months of soviet invasion but immedatelly after the war has been persecuted by the authorities.
Besides i hope you has not forgot my friend–the terror was a direct resault of the activity Jewish press in the USSR.
Iliaj Erenburg wrote a famous verse “Kill the GErmans” in the 1942 in central soviet prees “Pravda”.
DOes it recal something for you:)
What does this have to do with German women being raped-killed by the Soviet soldiers from the postwar occupation period?
Oh you again play the naive:)
For instance - what have justification of the a-bombing to do with Japane atrocities during the ww2 toward the CHinas and Americnas POWs?
You can’t tell about events of ww2 separatelly.
Becouse this is PURE demagogy and propogand.
So telling about raped GErmans don’t please forget to remind about killed in the East by thier Great aryans sons:)
Sure mate this doesn’t nessesary undetermine his earlier work:)
This just undetermine the official version of Holocaus:)
Becouse if the most human German army nobody raped , hardly the Truly Aryans could kill somebody:)Right:rolleyes:
I don’t think later conduct necessarily indicates that earlier conduct should be viewed in the same light.
David Irving was a very good historian before he got into the Holocaust denial stuff. He might still be, and it might be that later generations of historians will decide that he was correct in some or all of his interpretations. I don’t think he is, but I haven’t done any of the research he has and my knowledge, like almost everybody else’s, comes entirely from secondary sources.
If you were going to question App’s objectivity, I think you can find enough in his paper and his position in 1946 in a Catholic university. There is a lot of reliance on Catholic sources in his paper, without anything to back up the hearsay from his sources. He is clearly anti-Communist. But none of that necessarily undermines his account of Soviet and other Allied rapes. What would undermine it is showing that the sources he used are wrong or that the events he mentions didn’t occur.
And you seem to have no idea that he has no bearing on this conversation…Yet you repeatedly bring him up…
Oh said naive Nick, who just recently linked the pro-fascist site with Goebbels “documents and photos” of soviet activity in the Nemmensdorf:)
The photos that you have posted have been shoted during the Goebbels life.
So were the pictures of victims of Allied bombing. That never stopped you from spouting off in several threads about the veracity of them…
Stalin have no relation to the terror.
The acts of terror actually has been commited during the firsts months of soviet invasion but immedatelly after the war has been persecuted by the authorities.
Besides i hope you has not forgot my friend–the terror was a direct resault of the activity Jewish press in the USSR.
Iliaj Erenburg wrote a famous verse “Kill the GErmans” in the 1942 in central soviet prees “Pravda”.
DOes it recal something for you:)
Well, if you call 1949 “immediately after the War.” Okay…
LOL The “Jewish press” again?
Um, and killing the Germans was the Job of Soviet soldiers (in battle)…
Oh you again play the naive:)
For instance - what have justification of the a-bombing to do with Japane atrocities during the ww2 toward the CHinas and Americnas POWs?
You can’t tell about events of ww2 separatelly.
Becouse this is PURE demagogy and propogand.
So telling about raped GErmans don’t please forget to remind about killed in the East by thier Great aryans sons:)
You’re grasping at straws here and taking this way off topic with your “evil Western Allies” crap, again…
I warn you…
I don’t know about that.
I thought I’ve read that there were criticisms of Irving’s work before, after his first couple of books, because he (not being a trained historian) tended to reach premeditated conclusions and saw what he wanted see as his objectivity was questioned early…
Show where anybody EVER SAID THIS!!
I’M THE ONE THAT POSTED THE THREAD ON GERMAN ATROCITIES AGAINST SOVIET POWs (referred to as “the second holocaust”… (based on info from a “Jewish” Holocaust site no less…)
:rolleyes:
There’s no doubt that Irving has been controversial for all of his writing career, but as for lack of objectivity and arguing a case then the same criticisms can be made of university trained and professional academic historians. We’ve had a vicious debate in Australia for the past 15 years or so which have become known as the History Wars, focusing mainly on issues about white treatment of our indigenous people until very recently but spreading to other areas of left verus right / liberal versus conservative. It’s bound up with the same aspects of the political spectrum, and our last two prime ministers were involved, the last one right up to his mean little neck. For an example of the elements of the debate http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s938399.htm
Lack of academic standing isn’t a bar to writing good history, as John Costello showed with his Pacific War which is widely regarded as the best single volume treatment of that conflict. As an aside, being a writer like Irving or even Costello might be more dangerous than being an academic. http://www.illuminati-news.com/091006b.htm
I couldn’t agree more that everyday people can become as learned and influential as a university academic regarding history. But Irving never graduated, and even his earliest, seminal works, in which he obtained his now defrocked credibility --most notably his book on Dresden-- have largely been exposed as using hearsay as historical fact with little actual fact checking. And the use of sources that had absolutely no direct connection to any real, informed count of the dead.
I would suspect his use of anecdotal “US negro soldiers” raping white Europeans as a mirror the typical, inflated race-bating used over here. Rick Atkinson goes into depth on incidents of rampaging US soldiers raping in North Africa in “An Army at Dawn,” yet he says nothing to my knowledge of it happening in Italy in “Day of Battle”; and indeed, US units almost came to blows with the French Goums over their wholesale despoilment in the Italian countryside…
I think Irving is classically guilty of trying to write history according to his ideological worldview as opposed to adapting his views according to history…He’s far from the only one guilty of this, but the shame is that his (for instance) silly, inflated death figures for the victims of Dresden still survive and are used by various right wing apologists for Hitler along with his discredited later Holocaust denial.
Even at his libel trial in which he lost, his views as early as college indicated a very sympathetic view of Hitler, racism, anti-semitism, and of neofascism…
I am talking to you as well as anyone else using this forum.
And I have not said that those words would be your responsibility. I asked "
Do You agree with these statements?"
I used Google to get the pictures, and used the captions only to verify that the victims were Germans…
Does it mean you did not read the descriptions? So you mean you reffered to a pictures without knowing whoos crimes they depict. A bit shallow… maybe they depict someelse’s crime?
But you can not be sure since you did not read the captions, right?
Which I guess shows that while we have photos of apparently a Russian soldier tugging with a German woman over a bike, we also have some photographic evidence of the victims of the Red Army’s breakdown in discipline…
Yes, we do have photografs of the victims of RKKA. What is your point with this?
You are just like Panzercknacker - you are fighting with the ghosts of your own imagination.
The captions are as I said, obviously not written by someone who learned to speak English…
So what? 70% is 70%. Basta. In the Litvonian caption it says “70-80%”.
The site author expressed his opinino clearly.
Do you have a point with this?
Do you?
What do you think of the descriptions?
They suck. They are just as much true as saying that “all Wehrmacht soldiers were baby killers”.
I have seen interviews with German women that reported that in fact that the Soviet soldiers did in fact abduct women. I certainly don’t know about “every women” from “eight to 80.” but perhaps they missed some? The statement is obviously not literally true, but certainly the majority of women that were caught, certainly all of the young, attractive women that ran across any numbers of Soviet soldiers, seem to have been molested…
Do you think that I am correct, or no?
I have already answered on this. But I will repeat just for you:
But since you ask Egorka, do you believe that the whole sale rape of much of the German female population by the Red Army was a significant problem in WWII? Or do you not?
“Wholesale”? Is it like on a large scale without careful discrimination or “sweeping: ignoring distinctions;”?
But that would be IMHO - “nearly 70% of German woman” and “They raped every German female from eight to 80”.
NO, I do not believe that.
I do believe that raping and looting by Soviet soldiers were a significant problem in WW2, though.
Edit So, are you going to answer my questions, or just ask them and harp on some meaningless point?
Read your response closer - thank you for your answer…
What “questions”?
I answered one in my post #102, see the quote above.
Do you have more questions for me?
That’s all true.
But Iriving’s The War Between the Generals was still a good work. I’ve heard a couple of non-aligned academic historians say the same about it, and it was one of them who recommended it to me many years ago. Both had contempt for his revisionism.
As with so much fiction and non-fiction writing, it’s probably a case of evaluating given works rather than treating everything from a given author as good, bad or indifferent.
A couple of relevant and semi-relevant diversions on revisionism.
On App, who I mentioned earlier, http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p-43_App.html, and the rabid commentary of whom should make Chevan quite moist in his underpants with the prospect of demolishing App as a source. 
Doesn’t this take us back to the earlier point that captions, and even photos, aren’t reliable?
After all, I found a clearly impossible caption that shows that the bike incident occurred in December 1944 long before the Soviets got into Berlin.
Photos of individual bodies don’t tell us anything beyond what we can see.
Yes, kind of.
But I already said that the photos can be considered as circumstantial evidance. Photos are not bad as such.
After all, I found a clearly impossible caption that shows that the bike incident occurred in December 1944 long before the Soviets got into Berlin.
Right. But the erroneous caption you found was not original.
The original caption and photo is in the “Bildarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz” and was featured in the photo exebition in Berlin in 1991.
Photos of individual bodies don’t tell us anything beyond what we can see.
Correct. Unless we know the context.
That is interesting about this specific image that it has more to it than normaly.