What if the Germans won the war

World War II General WWII Discussion
#21

I watched the wonderful PBS series, “The War,” a five part series on WWII from the American point of view of course in which numerous veterans of the War and civilians who were caught up in it were interviewed…

In one of the interviews, a former sniper/medic named Leopold (I think it was him) said he had been treating German POWs and one of the men, a mid-level officer asked him where he was from - in perfect English with little accent. Leopold replied, “The United States.”

The German solder came back at him, “yes I know this but what part?”

Leopold said, “The northeastern part, not far from New York City.”

The German officer further asked, “Where in the northeast?”

Leopold, annoyed, finally said, “Danbury, Connecticut.”

The German’s face lit up and he said, “Oooohhh! Danbury, where the (such and such) rivers meet the (whatever) river?”

Leopold was stunned that anyone would be aware of such a mundane fact, and said, “Yes! How did you know that?”

The German smiled and replied, “I was in training for the 'Administrator’s program.”

:slight_smile:

#22

i have always heard that hitler had in fact planned to invade the us. Historians have recently (within the last 5 yrs) found a sequel to “Mein Compf” outlining hitlers us invasion. THen there is also teh fact that he put a great deal of effort into the development of an “Amerika Bomber” which would fly nonstop from france to new york and then back again. So i think hitler really did despise american as much, maybe more, than the rest of the european ethnic groups

And as for hitlers manpower it is likely that his armys wouldnt have come just from germany…

#23

sorry I was starting a new post, so that’s why the title is off topic
But…
the book that depicts perfectly this scenario
is THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, by Philip K Dick
Not made “à la sauce” Hollywood yet, I think?

#24

Well this pretty much ignores the fact, that Germany in this scenario also has six more or less peacetime years, in which it can spend vast ressources on R&D instead of weapons. They would’ve achieved nuclear capabilities sooner or later, possibly sooner than the USSR in our timeframe. If Japan still foolishly declares war on the US, then Germany will know in 1945 that the bombs are feasible and put all effort into its development & production. Then we are again in the Cold War.
The B-36 would probably be countered by radarguided AA missiles based on the A4 by 1947 and I am fairly sure they would’ve come up with high altitude interceptors if the need would be. Though all those technical developments are imho to fast, because many developments were fuelled by the actual situation, even the Manhatten Project. And like I said I think it is politically more likely, that the US will arrange itself with the new situation in europe once the fighting stops.

Now on Hitler dreaming of an invasion of the USA. If he really did that, he was even more stupid than I thought, though I have never actually read something which would prove that. All his “visions” as far as I know were based around livingspace in the east for some farming type guys capable of feeding themselves from the soil they live on and such nonsense, this “each guy on his own land” seems to appeal to dictators, didn’t that guy in zimbabwe ruin his countries economy the same way?

#25

Maybe the Nazis would have got manpower from elsewhere, but the ones which didn’t come from Germany really weren’t up to scratch and tended to get slapped stupid by any competent military force they came up against. There is a great deal more to an army than just warm bodies.

As for the Amerika bomber, most of the designs were little more than dirty paper. You can’t take these things seriously in terms of the effort going in until you get half a dozen prototypes flying - that’s when the major work really starts going in. It’s also worth noting that the US had it’s own equivalent in the B-36 - which came from a specification in April 1941, long before the Germans were even thinking in such terms. It was put on the back-burner when it became apparent that the UK would survive to act as a bomber base, but even so was flying shortly postwar…

#26

Thing is, we know from the Farm Hall transcripts (where the high-ranking German nuclear physicists were interrogated after WW2 - their living quarters were bugged and they didn’t know it) that Heisenberg et al didn’t think that nuclear weapons were theoretically possible. The transcripts show that when given news of Hiroshima, they simply didn’t believe that it was caused by a nuclear device. If they were running the German nuclear programme in this alternate history as well, the chances are that they’ll think the same way and the first time they’ll realise that nuclear weapons are possible will be when someone drops one on them.

Point taken - assuming that Germany manages to stay at peace with the US until they have something approaching nuclear parity. That’s IMHO a dodgy assumption, but an arguable one.

Indeed. The point I’m trying to make is that the B-36 redefined high altitude - the Featherweight III variants flew at 50,000ft over the target. “High Altitude” to the German armed forces of 1942 or so (the last time they would be at war in this scenario) is 32,000ft or so, and the few aircraft that can reach those heights are really struggling badly. Until the B-36 comes along, there is no reason to try flying that high, or developing missiles that can go that high - indeed, it’s rather an “obvious” waste of resources. If the US is going for a “destroy Germany in a day” strike - which they are potentially capable of by 1947 - then any developments have perhaps 3 hours to be invented, bodged together and flown. IMHO, that isn’t going to happen.

Maybe. Personally I think it’s unlikely given US participation in WW1, the amount of cash they were making out of the Allies, German hostility and interference with freedom of the seas (NOT bright - that’s what brought the US in during WW1) and Roosevelt’s character. Hence my original Lindbergh comment - it would take a leader like that, IMHO, to keep the US out of WW2 in Europe, as well as a far smarter Hitler.

Not particularly, Zimbabwe’s all about terrorising and starving to death anybody not likely to vote for Mugabe. Yet another shining example of an African country whose people would benefit massively (to the tune of not being dead) by having a NATO Airbourne Brigade drop in and remove their current leadership, but we can’t do so as it would be seen as “racist” and all that cr*p. Apparently, it’s just fine for Africans to starve and be massacred as long as people with the right skin colour are doing the killing.:evil:

#27

so serious must we be? this is s’posed to be a fun little pipe dream.

#28

well, there probably would be a couple of years between the wars in europe and america and during those times training of all of germanys troops training would become more intense

and as far as the bomber, there was in fact a prototype of the plane not to mention the fact that once there was a war, germany could probably use iceland as a bomber base

#29

Hi Sergeant.
Hmmmn the germans won the war… the world without jews, limited slavs and other low races :wink:
Sounds great:):wink:
But my mind is too weak to imagine this scenario.
I don’t like the pseudo-scientific fantasies:)

Cheers.

#30

Not only the first radio controlled AA missiles but do not forget about the perfect hight altitude fighters like the piston masterpieces Ta-152H and Me-262. This was REAL uber anti-bomber wearpon that was ready for combat use in 1944.
Both of those fighters could easy teared for a pieces the B-29 formation like it did the Mig-15 in a Korean war.
(BTW the firepower of the 2x23&1x37 mm guns was much less then the firepower of 4x30 mm Me-262) :wink:
And only the lack of resources and industry power of Germans ( simply coz they lost the territories on the ground ) let the allies enought possibilities for firebombing compain.
Besides if the Axis won the war ( i/e they captured the Asian colonies) the Alles would innevitable have the lack of resources - this fact simply couild not let the US to lead the so experiece ( in literal sence) the strategic air compain. Hence the Germany would not have much problems with the armades of B-17/29.
If they won the war ( i.e they captured the Kavkaz with the soviet oil field and Iran with the British oil) the losing he war in the Europe by allies would be just the matter of time.

Cheers.

#31

My dear pdf you know i/m not a adirer of Nazy wearponry like the some of our members in here;)
But you naive believe in Super/Uber werponry is bother me :slight_smile:
In spirit of Further you think that the parody for the bombers the ugly Piston/Jet B-36 could be the absolute mean that could win the war:)
You clearly know that the Germans was superior in many techoligies including the jet aviation. For the comparition the best alles fighter in 1944 the Meteor was much worst then the Me-262( and american YP-80 was still in testing) . Despite of lack of the Nickel the Germans was able to build in 1944 the jet engine that was better then the british.
So if you realy think that if they were techically able to creat the effectiive wearpon against the B-17 already in the 1944 ( and just the problems with resorces in total war did not let tem to build enought jet fighters).
they was not able to create the super jet fighter in the 1947 agains the ugly monster B-36 ?:slight_smile:
If even the soviets have builded the Mig-17 int he 1950- the superior Germans engeeners had projected the simular fighter in the 1945 ( the me-183 project).
There is no any doubts thay could build the German analog of mig-17 already in the 1946-47. Accurate to meet the B-36 for dinner:)

#32

You will laught but even in the USSR till the 1945 the physics were not sure the nucler wearpon was ever theoretical possible. In the mid of 1943 when they have begin the soviet nuclear program - untill the 1945 their resaults were still very humble in comparition with Germans. And only after the Red Army had captured the part of Germans documentation and in the USA nucler test was clearly prowed the possibility of the nukes- the Stalin read the soviet intelligence report after the few days.
Immediatelly he order to force the soviet project and gives all matter under command of Beria. Already in the 1950 the pure soviet progect of a-boomb should be ready , but we used the american datas and build it in the 1949.
So if the SU was able to creat the own bomb for the 5 years - i have no any doubts the Germans who have the more great experience and more idustrial possibilities would buld the bomb through 2-3 years.

#33

PDF -

The point I’m trying to make is that the B-36 redefined high altitude - the Featherweight III variants flew at 50,000ft over the target. “High Altitude” to the German armed forces of 1942 or so (the last time they would be at war in this scenario) is 32,000ft or so, and the few aircraft that can reach those heights are really struggling badly. Until the B-36 comes along, there is no reason to try flying that high, or developing missiles that can go that high - indeed, it’s rather an “obvious” waste of resources. If the US is going for a “destroy Germany in a day” strike - which they are potentially capable of by 1947 - then any developments have perhaps 3 hours to be invented, bodged together and flown. IMHO, that isn’t going to happen.

I have absolutely no doubt that this being the case Germany would have had no defence or very little defence against it. However, if the US does not enter WW2 in 1941 and the UK is not in the War from 1940 then would the US have developed both the B-36 and an Atomic Bomb. If the B-36 does not carry the Atomic Weapon then it really serves no purpose as its not going to bomb Germany with any effect from the US. If the B-36 is used to bomb Germany before any Atom Bomb is used then the Germans would probably develop a counter to it. Lastly is the US and Germany arent at War before 1947 then the development of the B-36 probably wouldnt be any secret.

There was a short story banging around a few years ago called ‘The Big One’, which concentrated on the very subject of a B-36 nuclear strike on a victorious Germany. If anyone can find it it is a cracking read.

Actually he expanded his short story into a Novel, on sale at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-One-Stuart-Slade/dp/1430304952/ref=sr_1_1/202-5033922-9121456?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191835651&sr=8-1

#34

Firefly:
Yeah, The Big One is one of the major sources for my attitude here - or to be precise the background discussions to it. I happened upon the book when he was halfway through writing it online, and participated in the background discussions to every chapter.

With regards to both nuclear weapons and the B-36 actually being developed, I think that’s pretty much a given. Both programmes started and were given high priority prior to the US entering the war, and German espionage at least in the US was pretty inept. I doubt either could have been kept secret from the Soviets (given how much Fuchs, Greenglass and the like handed over to the KGB from the Manhattan project) - but that isn’t the same as the Germans. Remember that the Germans thought nuclear weapons theoretically impossible until one went off over Hiroshima. If the US elected to hold the B-36s back for a nuclear strike on Germany (as happened in The Big One - I’m not sure how realistic this is) then the countermeasures would never be developed.

Chevan:
There is a world of difference between the MiG-17 and the MiG-15 at high altitude, let alone the MiG-15 and Ta-183. The difference is in reheated jet engines, something Whittle had thought about in the UK but as far as I can tell the Germans knew nothing about. Without them, no jet fighter has a prayer pf reaching the B-36.
The Ta-183 was actually build postwar (in Argentina as the Pulqui II) and turned out to be a complete dog. There is a superficial resemblance between the Ta-183 and the MiG-15, but no more. Aerodynamically they are very different beasties.
Oh, and German wartime jet engines were very, very bad - and it wasn’t just the lack of Nickel and Tungsten. The Soviets tried to build them postwar with unlimited supplies of strategic minerals, with very little success. All their immediately postwar fighters were powered by British designed jet engines, despite their easy access to “superior” German designs.

#35

The Ta-183 was actually build postwar (in Argentina as the Pulqui II) and turned out to be a complete dog.

The Ta-183 in his original form was never made. And by the way the Pulqui II was not a “dog”.

#36

Soviets (given how much Fuchs, Greenglass and the like handed over to the KGB from the Manhattan project) - but that isn’t the same as the Germans. Remember that the Germans thought nuclear weapons theoretically impossible until one went off over Hiroshima. If the US elected to hold the B-36s back for a nuclear strike on Germany (as happened in The Big One - I’m not sure how realistic this is) then the countermeasures would never be developed.

Again I agree with you PDF, the only thing I dont get, as is the same with all ‘what if’s’ is the premise that something will still be made at huge expense to a country that wouldnt be at war if they hadnt gone to war, if you get my drift. And by this I mean the B-36 and perhaps, but not generally so, the A Bomb.

Hiding the giant bombers in peacetime and their cost and production just wouldnt have worked in my opinion and no matter how inept that the Germans were (and they sure were) at espionage in War Time, they surely couldnt fail to notice the development of the B-36 in what we are assuming to be peace between the two nations.

So its the delivery system I have problems with hiding rather than the object to be carried. Interesting stuff nonetheless.

#37

Firefly:
Depends I guess on when the US enters the war. Prototyping, etc. could easily be kept quiet about, but mass production probably could not (at least in peacetime). However, that isn’t the critical bit. All the US needs to do to completely fox the Germans (at least in peacetime) is to keep quiet about the high altitude capability of the B-36, and pretend the range is lower than in reality. Both are relatively easy - the ceiling was kept very quiet for a long time, to the extent that even the US Navy thought it a lot lower than it was (see the Revolt of the Admirals for details), and the range could be concealed by stating the mission as being bombing a potential invasion fleet - this was the stated mission for the B-17 after all.
The funding is a whole other issue, but again I think not too difficult. The US is suddenly faced with a hostile Japan in the Pacific and a nation it fought 20 years before suddenly conquering several nations friendly to the US on the other side of the Atlantic, as well as trying to develop a major fleet (as well as probably trying to seize a large chunk of the RN). At the very least, that is IMHO going to lead the US to start a phase of rearmament. More likely is some form of Cold War kicking off across the Atlantic. The B-36 was originally designed for exactly this scenario (the US involved in a war with Germany after the fall of the UK), and the Manhattan Project was largely inspired by the fear that Germany would develop the weapons first. IMHO funding would not be that big an issue.

Panzerknacker:
At work at the moment so can’t check, but from memory there were two or three flying prototypes of the Pulqui II. Of these, IIRC two crashed killing one test pilot. Given this and the fact that it had a British engine far more advanced than anything available to the Ta-183 yet had performance inferior to aircraft like the MiG-15, I stand by my opinion it was a dog. As for the comparison between the Pulqui II and the Ta-183, there is a far closer relationship than with the MiG-15 (the Pulqui II was after all designed by Kurt Tank and his team also built it, by and large). Visually, apart from the changes forced by the engine change the two are also far more similar than the Ta-183 and MiG-15 are.

#38

I just checked, the TA-152-H1 would be capable to intercept the 1947 type B36, both had roughly the same service ceiling and I assume that a fully loaded wartime bomber would hardly reach its theoretical maximum (both speed and ceiling). The A4 can easily fly that high without modifications and if its the base for a SAM it will wreck havoc. Imho there is not even a real need for jet engines, but pdf is right, they lacked in certain areas, but this is imho too due to the wartime situation. Not only the material, but the time constraints. While the allies had the time to go through a proper development cycle most of the engine types germany used were rather hurried designs when Hitler wanted it again done yesterday after previously not seeing the potential.
Politically even if at war I can’t see any situation that would lead to the annihilation of an entire country + collateral damage to a lot of the rest of europe by the US government short of a successfull invasion of the USA and immanent thread of defeat, in short: impossible.
Concerning that other scenario: In no circumstance would Stalin allow allied troops en masse on its territory, not even on the brink of destruction, he was way to paranoid for that. And if you remove Stalin in wartime say in 1941 with germany victorious on all fronts, you’ll have a power struggle for his successor or even the complete dissolution of the USSR as a working entity.

#39

Hmmmm,

nuke2.gif

#40

Drake:
Check the US definition of “Service Ceiling”. IIRC at the time it was the height at which the rate of climb dropped off below 500 ft/min with full warload - might be wrong on that one, but it’s definitely defined by rate of climb dropping below a pretty substantial number with a lot of weight on board. Looking at some quickly googled numbers (don’t have a decent set of books to hand sadly) it does appear that a Ta-152 H1 could reach the same altitude as a B-36, just about. However, as it is relying entirely on GM1 boost to reach that target (it could run on that for what, 10 minutes maximum?) then it will have a very limited intercept window. If the B-36 crew are awake, flying in good weather with good optics they can potentially run away from the fighter with no problems - leg it far enough that it can’t reach them with sufficient boost remaining.

No argument that an A4 based SAM could reach the operating heights of the B-36 from me. However, unless the Germans knew that the B-36 was coming and that it had such an extraordinary high altitude performance, why would they bother building it?