What if the South Won the Civil War?

Yes, to get back to the original topic - there is a certain unreality about the idea of the South winning the Civil War. While many enthusiasts for “Southern rights” would have had difficulty in seeing this, the advantages enjoyed by the North in terms of sheer numbers, and in terms of the emphasis of their industry in developing in the “heavy” direction rather than the agricultural, gave the latter a huge advantage from the start. The North’s problem was in converting this advantage into military success - a problem to a very large extent resulting from political considerations and incompetence in the Northern military establishment.

The South’s hope of victory lay largely on political considerations. Could they make a brave enough show to convince European powers believed to be dependent on supply from the South’s “King Cotton” to intervene and impose a settlement of some sort ? In fact, this hope was undermined early on, as the European powers discovered or developed new sources of cotton, such as India (a well-established source), Egypt, and other areas of their far-flung empires. This left the South’s diplomatic strategy fatally weakened. At least one major European power - France - still considered itself to have some interest in ensuring, at least, that the Confederacy did not collapse. However, the crucial maritime and cotton power - Great Britain - with greater potential and actual cotton resources in its dominions - quickly lost interest. This left the Confederacy depending on an unlikely critical military victory over the North. To be fair, their Generals and soldiers did their best against often-blundering Northern opposition, but weight of numbers and production (and the combination of Lincoln and Grant) told against them in the end.

If, in the long shot, they had won - what then ? The Civil War was, and also was not, a “war against slavery”. This was not a war about the Rights of Man. If a referendum had been taken in 1861 on whether slavery should simply be abolished, the result would almost certainly have been heavily negative, both North and South. The governing class in the South regarded the “peculiar institution” of slavery as indispensable for the survival of their essential agrarian, plantation-based economy. Even Virginia, with its somewhat more varied economic base, had an interest in this, insofar as the sale of Virginian slaves “south” was a valuable business. As regards the North, both rural agricultural workers and urban commercial and industrial workers feared the prospect both of the abolition of slavery and that of its extension into the North, as they anticipated that this would result in their wage rates being undermined by northerly-migrant slave owners or freed slaves.

Whatever way one looks at it, the scenario here was for a war to the death, without realistic hope of compromise. A Southern “victory” would have left the core issue of the “peculiar institution” unsolved. A North defeated by some brilliant military stroke (of which Robert E. Lee, at least, might have been capable of delivering) would still have been, fundamentally, the stronger combatant. It seems very improbable that it would have tolerated any settlement that extended the “peculiar institution” north of the Mason-Dixon Line, at least as far as established States and Territories were concerned. It might, under constraint, have agreed to allow slavery to extend westward as new territories were established - but only below the Mason-Dixon line. Fine - but this would seem to have been no more than a recipe for another civil war, as the fundamental issue of the territorial scope of slavery would not have been settled, and because particular difficulties would have arisen as new slave territories abutted on the already settled west coast - a “non-slave” zone.

The Civil War was, in many respects, a result of the compromise between Federalists and Jeffersonians that allowed them to adopt a “federal” Constitution in the early 19th century. It was a complex compromise between the requirements of federation and the established tradition of States’ rights. This compromise was a wonderful product, at least intellectually, of the European Enlightenment of the late 18th century. However, it left many matters “hanging in the air”, and the compromise between States’ rights and federation appears, to many Europeans, unsatisfactory to this day. Poisoned by the essentially economic issue of slavery, this unsatisfactory compromise produced a civil war. The least that can be said for that awful war is that it removed the issue of the “peculiar institution” from the American political agenda, allowing the country as a whole to proceed with its political, economic and social development on a reasonably practical basis. A fortituous Southern “victory” could not have achieved this, and may have been no more than a recipe for further civil war. Just some thoughts, JR.

You may be referring to the later 1960s stages of rural workers in my earlier links.

I failed to clarify that I had in mind the longstanding practice of pastoralists occupying aboriginal lands and then ‘employing’ local aborigines on their traditional lands for payments of tea, flour, salt and sugar. The ‘company store’ approach was present, as it has been in some places nowadays in a different form with store owners racking up debts against aborigines’ welfare payments, which ensures that the worker / welfare recipient is always in debt to the employer or store owner.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/apy-book-up-still-being-used-despite-ban-bid/story-fn9hm1pm-1226264140129#
https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/tools-and-resources/publications/indigenous-dealing-with-book-up

An unintended consequence of the flour/sugar ration system was that flour and sugar contributed to significantly increased obesity and diabetes in aboriginal communities, with adverse health consequences.

However, as with almost everything to do with aborigines since European settlement / invasion, it’s not that simple. In many cases the aborigine working for the pastoralists had one or more family members living in a camp on the pastoralist’s land, so the rations were supplied for the larger family group. In turn, some or all of the family group could be working for the pastoralist in other capacities, such as household staff, but given no more rations. But perhaps it suited them to be doled out rations rather than live their traditional lives, assuming they could have lived their traditional lives after the pastoralists arrived.

True, but when I started work in the mid-1960s single adult men were paid a lower rate for the same work as married men, because the wage scale favoured married men and assumed that women didn’t work.

I recall the asperse comments made by adults in my childhood about men whose wives worked, along the lines that the man was deficient because he couldn’t support his wife.

At that time I think it was the law, or certainly the practice, here that when a woman married she lost her job.

I also recall the bitter battle fought by a woman to be an airline pilot here, opposed by the wealthy airline owner, and other battles such as women wanting to be tram drivers.

I have no knowledge of the copyright issues you mention (nor copyright law in any detail as it’s a specialist area here) but you are certainly correct in your “impression that many of the legislative initiatives taken by Australian governments in recent years are high on worthy aspiration, but sometimes fall rather short in terms of altering the situation of Aboriginal communities for the better.”

The reasons for these failures are probably many, but if anyone knew what they were, and given the vast sums of time, money and goodwill effort thrown at the problem, those failures would have been corrected by now.

The first issue, often not understood even down here, is that there is no such thing a single and uniform solution to whatever the ‘problem’ is. Aborigines come from all sorts of backgrounds in various parts of the country where their aspirations and abilities differ, so it’s not a ‘one size fits all’ solution.

The fairly traditional (i.e. 40,000 or so years of accumulated tradition) aborigines in some parts of the country, not all of whom speak adequate English in an English speaking country, are in a very different position to those who for some generations have lived in rural or urban situations. And the experience of, say, rural aborigines living in a town where they are looked down on or shunned is very different to those living in a major city where they are relatively anonymous but may still be looked down on or shunned. And then there are the commercially successful aborigines in various communities, whose commercial success outstrips that of whites in their communities.

Talking of aborigines as a single group with common views etc is as meaningless as talking of the Irish on the same basis.

I intended to include these links in my last post on slavery / wages for aborigines, but as dementia sets in with its early stage of short term memory loss I forgot.

Here is the version of one of our, and possibly the worst offending, state government. Usual spin, bullshit and penny pinching.
https://www.qld.gov.au/atsi/cultural-awareness-heritage-arts/history-indigenous-wages/

Here is one version of those affected.
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/economy/repaying-stolen-wages

I intended to include these links in my last post on slavery / wages for aborigines but, as dementia sets in with its early stage of short term memory loss for the ancient, I forgot.

Here is the version of one of our, and possibly the worst offending, state governments. Usual spin, bullshit and penny pinching.
https://www.qld.gov.au/atsi/cultural-awareness-heritage-arts/history-indigenous-wages/

Here is one version of those affected.
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/economy/repaying-stolen-wages

Here is a more detailed calculation of the exploitation of and losses suffered by aboriginal workers.
http://www.reconciliation.qut.edu.au/issues/recweek/StolenWagesFactSheet.pdf

Look you guys. In case you haven’t noticed, I started this Thread many moons ago and it is not about the wages of Aboriginals. Can we PLEASE stay on topic. The thread is called:“What if the South Won the Civil War”. Create your own thread if need be, but honestly, do I go into threads about Japanese aircraft and talk about the Civil War?. No because it would not be the appropriate thread. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation in this matter.

Then you shouldn’t have started sending this thread off what is now your preferred topic at #59 where you said

You have a remarkable inability to recognise and accept the consequences of your own actions, as is common with young children.

Grow up.

I am sorry your Highness, your Lordship, Your Modship, but I thought, I assumed, I had read that this issue of Pigmies was over yet your copying and posting last weeks comments again, because you either like to discourage members from getting over it and MOVING on as i said like 2 days ago, but no You have nothing better to do but post this reply again like you will again after you read this because you either have too much time on your hands or there is so few members that it appeases you to dribble on this subject. I have read the comments from the other Mods which I respect and I have no qualm about moving on.I have gotten over it but you still want to continue?.Hello? ALL I am saying is that CAN we please as members PLEASE continue our fine conversations and relate it to to the thread that it is listed under. This THREAD is about the |Civil War. I understand there was a disruption on the content and quality of this thread but I would like to have the Thread balanced for its intent, which is Civil War, which is dear to my heart. I have had 2-3 friendship requests since I re-entered the scene last week and I don’'t assume its because I am not with out compassion. Nonetheless I don’t feel comfortable about contributing, or complimenting or speaking on this forum if after 3-4 days the Mod is still calling me a Young child. Even if I were to complain that youe needling me or whatever it would serve no purpose because birds of a feather Flock together. It makes other members who read your responses wonder if they should comment. I have said it once and I have said it a million times. The value and appreciation of members comments is what makes this forum GREAT. If we cant speak freely, than this is Communism (No offense to loyal and respectable Chevan:) Please Rs can we just get along. I have had you in my mind lately and if you go to my profile I have begged you to be my friend for past 4 years and I have not changed that . I just wish RS would be my friend. (Pls don’t reply with Red, I just want to get along and p.s. you spell recognize wrong in your prior response because there is a red squiggly line under the word(unless of course that’s how you spell it Down Under:):):)By the way I am writing this at Real time 7"42 p.m. Where are you? Your always napping when I log on??

Then post something on topic.

Herman, I’m going to step in here and give you a two week break. You clearly cannot “let it go” and really need to stop obsessing and worrying about things that have nothing to do with you. If you want a better WWII site, then open one FFS!!

damn, worst homecoming party ever

Wow I am quite surprised actually I though that he would have let this situation go but I guess not. Than again it is a lot easier said than done. I know that for myself personal but we got to do it right? (letting things go and all). So yes hopefully when he rejoins use we will be able to let it ago. I really do hope this isn’t offending anyone. I just feel like my opinion would bring some kind of peace to this thread. (If not already)

A bit like those diehard Confederates who retreated into Mexico rather surrender at the end of the Civil War, I suppose - banned but Undefeated …

Yours from Vera Cruz,

JR.

Not banned…just temporarily on forced vacation…the South Lives On!!!Long Live Dixie!!

First of all, I am so overjoyed that I have found this forum on the American Civil War. I am currently reading about the early years of the conflict and have found the times quite fascinating. I wish I could say that I had relatives in the conflict, although I often like to identity myself with the young boys from the Carolinas, who fought bravely in the war because I settled there twenty-five years ago. North Carolina screams its patrotism, and sometimes I, as a native Pole, feel obligated to support that state’s contribution to the Civil War.

From what I’ve tentatively gathered, Southerners wanted a war in order to defend the integrity and honor of their home States. General Robert E. Lee stated as such in his speeches and deeds, and I can reasonably believe that Lee wanted not only to defend Virginia but an agrarian economic system that engulfed the South and consumed the energies and lives of its inhabitants. Southerners often stress the differences that separate them from Northerners, even if those differences involve economic exploitation and serfdom, which, I believe adequately describes sharecropping as it existed in the South.

In all due respect, Nicolas, we are in more agreement here than what might be supposed. But I must take issue with this quotation above. The Civil war was not only about the issue of slavery (a compromise between the members present at the inception of the country might be closer to the truth). The issues separating the North from the South were political and economic in origin. First of all, the South believed that the constitution was a federal contract with each state, and each state that composed the union had little obligations to the federal government, which the Confederate government believed could not extend beyond the bounds of national defense, taxation and census taking. The federal government contract existed because of the good graces of the states, which could uphold and defend the contract if it chose. Also, the South believed that tariff issue violated the federal government’s duties delineated in the constitution. If the North could not find a compromise solution to the tariff issue, then South must find another way to trade with the outside world.