Who won World War II?

So far as the economic aspects go, and trying to summarise some complex issues in a few paragraphs, Japan and Germany had similar problems at the core of their economies, although Japan’s were much worse as it had very little in the way of natural resources outside agriculture while it had rapidly expanding industries which needed more resources than the occupation of Manchuria could supply. Germany had more in the way of some natural resources, but it still needed to import a lot of critical materials which it couldn’t do for much of the war in the quantities required, thus contributing ‘ersatz’ to the world’s vocabulary as a derisive term with its attempts to make things with alternative materials.

Both Germany and Japan lacked direct access to oil, which was becoming increasingly necessary for civilian transport and industry, and critical for military purposes. It was the knowledge that Japan’s oil reserve would be exhausted in a year after the West imposed oil embargoes that was one of the major factors which made Japan decide in mid-1941 that it had to go to war if the embargoes were not lifted. Hence the Japanese drive to the NEI (Indonesia) and Borneo for oil, with the added benefit that Borneo crude could be used unrefined for the IJN ships. Germany also needed oil, hence the drive for the Rumanian oilfields. One strategic aim of the Allies was to prevent Germany and Japan linking up in Iran and getting access to its oil, thereby depriving the Allies, primarily Britain from memory, of it and dramatically altering the relative capacities, notably naval, of the Axis powers. This was one of the reasons the Burma campaign was important, to prevent Japan getting to Iran.

Both Germany and Japan lacked direct access to rubber, which was becoming increasingly important for transport and other purposes, especially military purposes. The bulk of it came from Malaya, which was a British colony.

There were other resource issues which encouraged the Axis powers to go to war, along with a host of non-economic issues to do with arrogant nationalism and fascist ideologies and so on.

The measure of the economic changes wrought by the war in favour of the Axis powers is illustrated by a report by Gen Dwight Eisenhower shortly after Japan had conquered Malaya and the NEI in which he noted that Japan now controlled (I can’t recall the exact proportions) something like almost all of the world’s rubber resources and the bulk of its tin resources. Japan went in a few months from having no rubber and little tin to having more than it could use, while denying those resources to the Allies.

There were also other economic factors which contributed to the move to war in Japan and Germany which both had economies heavily dependent upon military production, such as Krupp in Germany and the major companies known as the zaibatsu in Japan. The analogy is with the post-war (and more so during the war) military-industrial complex in the US where a significant part of the economy is related to military production.

If Germany and Japan had achieved their economic aims, the war each fought would have been worthwhile. As things turned out it wasn’t, but in 1939 and 1941 respectively it looked to many leaders in both countries as if they could pull it off. It wasn’t impossible that they could have, if they had run the war differently.

No question about that.

But if there was any justice in the world, Britain would have reaped the rewards of victory to an even greater extent than Japan and Germany reaped the rewards of defeat.

Although the the Marshall Plan was a much better way of avoiding another war than the crushing terms imposed on Germany after WWI (and with a lot less justification for punishing it and Japan than applied after WWII), the Plan’s “rewarding bad behaviour” approach was nicely satirised in Leonard Wibberley’s 1955 novel The Mouse That Roared, which is probably better known through the film version of the same name with Peter Sellers in the main role.

Tiny (3 miles by 5 miles) Grand Fenwick borders Switzerland and France in the Alps, and proudly retains a pre-industrial economy, dependent almost entirely on making Pinot Grand Fenwick wine. Wibberley places Grand Fenwick in a series of absurd situations, where it goes up against superpowers and wins. In The Mouse that Roared it declares war on the United States after US-produced “Grand Enwick” wine threatens to undermine their economy. Expecting to be dealt a crushing defeat (and then rebuild itself through the largess that the United States bestows on its vanquished enemies such as in the Marshall Plan) the tiny Duchy instead defeats the United States, purely by accident, by capturing the Q-bomb, a prototype doomsday device that could destroy the world if triggered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

Sory guys to interrupt your nice discussion .
I don’t know who won the WW2 , but i know exactly who had a great profit of WW2.
The USA :wink:
After the WW2 the gold reserve of state has increased from 14 000 to 21 000(!!!) tonns.
This was a direct resault of Lend lise. The practically all the gold of Britain, France and USSR aftre the war appeared in the USA and as it was already mentioned all lend lise
receivers was the deptors of USA till the recent time ( Russia is still).
I read a report of american athor ( i don’t remember his mane) he wrote that US basket of goods increased in 2-3 times during the WW2. In compare Britain had a strong food limitation and USSR had a food shortage and even famine in some regions.
Just in the US , he wrote, some peoples could call the WW2 as GOOD WAR. Becouse they had a great personal profit.Only US had economic increase during the war.
While the Europeans killed each other America “made a money on its blood” he wrote.
Aftter the war enourmous money resources of the US ( which were given from the Europe for the weapon supplies) were partially invested back to the economy of western Europe.
And again the US firstly thought about personal profit - the Europe get the money but was the obligated to by only americans goods.
This the “rotation of money in nature” was extremely advantageous for the US.

Cheers.

Australia didn’t do too badly. Churchill complained that we were making profits from sending food, wool and so on to Britain during the war (although he didn’t complain about the 20,000 rifles we sent before 1941 so that we were short a full division’s worth of rifles when Japan attacked). Australia actually ended up with a Lend Lease credit because we accommodated and supplied the American forces here and supplied their bases in the SWPA with various items.

Yea Australia had a profit too.
I read that the 90% of food suppies for the US and UK armies in the Pathific was from Australian farms. Not bad bisiness if you are the monopolists IMO.
The prices were not market and thay had a great income.

Yes this is true…however the allies needed the support of the US to win the unconditional surrender of Nazi Germany. It would have taken many more lives and time of the USSR and UK commonwealth to defeat them. Let us not forget that in 41 most Europeans were convinced that the Nazi’s were going to win the war. You talk of profit…like I said it is true it gave the boost the the US economy needed. But the main reason why is because our country was not on the front lines. There was never any threat of direct attack on the US. Only Naval power came close. So we didnt have to rebuild towns and aid displaced ppl. We just made war supplies and sold them. You can look at us as the cheat code for winning the war. (not that it was certain even with our involvement but it sure helped)

Sorry but this is a country that does look after is own concerns much like other countries. Dont confuse the US with UNICEF or the Peace Corp…even thou we like to appear as these. :wink:

Oh Gen are you american?
Sorry i didn’t guess before.

Tht’s right , but don’t forget that the most Europeans not only were convinced in the Nazi victory but also TOOK A ACTIVE PART in the german war mashine ( like a France,Italy , particulary Spain and ALL eastern Europe).
Well sure you right thou both USSR and Britain blaimed the US in the “getting profit” in the Lend lise , but … they both were taken a interest in the USA participation in the war on its side.And certainly Lend lise ( 60% got the Britain and about 22% - USSR) played a great role in the war.
But loking to the after war perspective i have to notice that if the USSR lost its human resources ( but a won the territory and influence) for the victory, Britain lost its Imperia and all the money and only the USA neither lost but also had a GREAT profit from the war.

You talk of profit…like I said it is true it gave the boost the the US economy needed. But the main reason why is because our country was not on the front lines. There was never any threat of direct attack on the US. Only Naval power came close. So we didnt have to rebuild towns and aid displaced ppl. We just made war supplies and sold them. You can look at us as the cheat code for winning the war. (not that it was certain even with our involvement but it sure helped)

Sorry but this is a country that does look after is own concerns much like other countries. Dont confuse the US with UNICEF or the Peace Corp…even thou we like to appear as these. :wink:

That’s right Gen during all the WW2 no one bomb falled down at the USA territory.
We could conclude the God helped the US ( by leading the Europe into the blood war) he get a good chance for the Americans ( right as it was after the WW1) To get a rise in the worl power.

Cheers.

From the great state of Indiana…full of farm land and uh … farm land…and uh etc…

Well when you live in Europe for awhile you get used to not advertising it alot. Also your world view on things changes. :wink:

One might argue that World War II did not truly end until the last of the evil powers the Soviet Union collapsed. There was hostility between the west and the USSR before the war and this conflict continued well into the 1980s.

attacking the United States is not justifiable based on the correlation of forces unless guerrilla tactics are being used.

The west wasn’t fighting the USSR during WWII. Once Russia entered the war against Germany they were on the same side, even if, like every other Ally, they were pursuing their own interests.

Given the huge and costly contribution the Soviets made to the defeat of Germany and their significant contribution to victory against Japan by tying up substantial Japanese forces against their border from 1939, along with their crushing defeat of Japanese forces in Manchuria towards the end of the war against Japan, what happened after WWII can’t be linked to what happened during it.

Strictly, the war between the USSR and Japan never ended. The USSR refused to sign the 1951 Treaty of San Francisco which formally ended the war, and didn’t sign any peace treaty before the USSR collapsed so, in that sense, a peace treaty is now impossible. There were various negotiations between the parties http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/edition92/period5.html and subsequent negotiations between Russia and Japan http://english.people.com.cn/english/200009/04/eng20000904_49674.html http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?volume_id=407&issue_id=3533&article_id=2370497 but as far as I’m aware there still hasn’t been a formal peace treaty.

Yes this is true.
And USA played active role not to let this Soviet-Japane peace treaty during the Cold War.
http://www.rg.ru/2006/11/23/kurily.html

The conference, which was opened on 4 September, 1951, actually came only to the ceremony of the signing of peace treaty. Neither considerations nor corrections into that comprised by Washington and approved by London text of agreement was not allowed. In order to turn out this billet, was specially selected the composition of participants in the conference.
In essence were here represented the countries of pro-American orientation, even not not warred with Japan: 21 countries of Latin American continent(!!!), 7 European, 7 African states(!!!). Then the countries, which many years battled with the Japanese aggressors, were not at all allowed to the conference: neither China nor Mongolia nor PDRK nor Vietnam .
In the sign of protest refused to send in San Francisco their representatives India and Burma.
With the requirements of reparations appeared Indonesia, Philippines, Holland.

After the beginning the Korean war where the USSR got the active participation. USA was ready to do everything to never let the Soviet -Japane agreement be signed.

After signing San -Francisco agreement in the political peace of Japan existed consensus of the fact that territorial claims to THE USSR should be limited only by the Khabomai islands and Shikotan.
This was fixed, for example, in the joint parliamentary resolution of all political parties of Japan on 31 July, 1952, with which agreed the government of those days. In the same resolution was posed the problem of returning Japan those also occupied with the United States of the island of Okinawa, Ogasavara and some others.

Khrushchev, naturally, connected transfer to the Japanese of two islands Soviet side specified by the preliminary condition: after THE USA will transmit to Japan Okinawa and other age-old Japanese territories, which are seized of USA.
For Japanese side it was very hard to entreat Khrushchev to exclude this point from the text of joint declaration. Then Americans willingly accompanied to nationalistic moods in Japan. In the U.S. State Department was invented and officially presented in the note to the government of Japan the devised historico- geographical formulation: Gov of THE USA arrived at the conclusion that Iturup island and Kunashir (together with The Khabomai islands and Shikotan, which are the part of Hokkaido) were always by the part of Japan they must on the validity be considered as belonging of Japane.
During August 1956 the Secretary of State OF THE USA John Dulles openly threatened Japanese government, that if it recognizes Soviet sovereignty above Kunashir and Iturup, then THE USA will forever preserve for themselves Okinawa and entire archipelago of Ruky.

This deadline situation was the direct resault of Cold war. But i don’t think today the peace treaty impossible.
It’ seems now we have the best chance to solve this problem forever.

Cheers.

The problem regarding the USSR and Japan was due to the USSR breaking its non-aggression pact with Japan by attacking the Japanese in August 1945 and occupying territoty that Japanese considered to be part of Japan.

The Japanese themselves had been quite aggressive so driving them out of territory they had invaded seems reasonable but the Japanese did not want to yield the Kurile Islands considering this to be their land.

The United States sadly does not seem to have protested the Soviet land-grabs much. However, cooperation with the USSR was viewed as having its benefits.

to Cojimar_1945:

The problem regarding the USSR and Japan was due to the USSR breaking its non-aggression pact with Japan by attacking the Japanese in August 1945 and occupying territoty that Japanese considered to be part of Japan.

I agree, that breaking the non-aggression pact is the tricky part in here and the Japanese may complain about it.

The statement regarding “occupation of territory” is more wrong than correct. At least no one else except Japan can complain. This is becasue the “land grab” was agreed upon by all of the Allies and was confirmed and signed in both Yalta and Potsdam conferences. So blame ALL of the Allies together then.

…but the Japanese did not want to yield the Kurile Islands considering this to be their land.

Sure they did not. Neither did not want Germany, but no one asked her. Why should they have asked Japan?

The jews won the war. The White race lost.

  • Ballocks!

Perhaps (and that is a huge perhaps) one day we will all come to realize that we are all a part of the Human Race, and that colour etc is merely environmental adaptation(Darwinism). Wars are fought for econiomic reasons. Perhaps some are better at handling their economies than others. The Jews were a displaced people forced into surviving by way of Usuary - financing credit - (Darwinism, again) - have you not read of Shylock and the ‘Ghetto’ in Venice? - so they became good at it, as anyone would in those circumstances. If anyone holds an advantage in any situation, he is a fool not to use that advantage to his own ends. That’s just human nature - and I’m a fool! :smiley: