Get some manners and try not to call me to "F’’ word or i will complain to the mods.
I only was asking if they had pictures of the gunned down men in the polish/german border for evidence to back hitler up for invading poland, i didn’t want to see them you FOOL.
I never said the invasion was anything but unplanned.
Hitlers other one is in the Albert Hall, and is on display in the gents toilets just inside the main enterence.
I have met Polish soldiers who took part in a charge. Also Polish men who fought at the Battle of Britian with the RAF.
It is amazing the sort of people who come out of the wood work when your visiting another country.
Given the fact that the Blitzkreig (incidently actually invented by a Britsh Officer from the Grendier or Coldstream Guards (my memory fails me on this) was a completely new form of warfare.
A fully integrated attack with tanks heavily supported by a mechanised infantry (that could keep up!!), which in turn were all supported by a ruthlessly efficient Artillery/Air support and logistics chain.
As mentioned the Poles couldn’t get that 100% to go to war.
Hence Polish units were slaughtered, as they through themselves at the attacking Boshe.
Interesting point to note, however, is that the Blitz and the tanks in particular were ineffective agains horses. They couldn’t train their weapons on them quickly enough, unfortuanlty, wooden lances didn’t make much of an impression on the tanks either!
I apologise for my post, earlier.
It just appears to me there are a few people on this site with, shall we say, an unhealthy interest in the war.
you met polish soldiers that took part in a charge armed with spears and pistols against german tanks- when and where?
i doubt that this is true. such a moronic attack would be considered criminal even by facist/communist standards.
fuller came up with the novel idea of doing blitzkrieg, but he failed to develop the concept into fruitation. it was guderian that took his initial idea and figured out how to make it work.
while its fairly true that the panzer 1s, and iis, weren’t good against horses, how about the mechanized halftracks that accompanied them? theres two or three heavy mgs in each one.
You mean when and where did they attack or when and where did I meet them?
I met them in Poland at an Anglo/British get together. They’re officers brought a few of their old boys along as it was the first time that the British Army had been in Poland since 1939.
What makes you think this kind of charge was too outragious? Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava ring any bells? Or the use of horses in WW1? Or the use of horses in WW2 for artillery by many sides, the British still had horse mounted cavelry in 1938. And the Russians wasted thousands of lives in mass attacks on tank formations both on foot and on horse.
The Polish forces never fought in a coordinated way, they never received orders, they just fought as and when at mere Company or Regimental levels.
These were only hit and run attacks, a sort of we’ve got to do something whilst we’re waiting for our orders thing.
I met the RAF boys whilst walking around a town on the Baltic, can’t remember the name of the place sorry, with some of my mates in uniform. They were throughly pleased to meet us and bought us some beer and proudly showed us some pictures and their decorations, brought in by a grandson.
HMGs ? I was unaware of that, which ones were they ?
As a point of interest, during the Great War the Brit cavalry continued mounted charges up until near the end of hostilities, and with good tactics they found them very effective even against MGs.
I took that to mean the MG34 is it?
The one that HK used the breach block design in all current HK weapons.
Err, no. The MG34 has a rotating bolt.
The MG42 is recoil-operated roller-locked, which people often mistake for roller-delayed blowback, which was first used in the Stg. 45. It was this roller-delayed blowback that was HK’s trademark design for a long period - and there are good reasons why almost nobody else uses it!!!
In any case, the latest HK rifle (i.e. the G36) uses an AR-18 type gas-operated rotating bolt and appears to have finally dropped this roller-delayed blowback sillyness.
My bad, must have got confused between 34 and 43.
I always quite liked the rollers. Never gave me any problems.
Hosenfeld have you anything to say reference Poles and their cavalry charges?
We were just getting somewhere I thought!!!
Please Google “Polish Cavalry charges of World War 2”
or look at the following website.
www.polishnews.com/fulltext/history/2001/history4.shtml
If you need any more “proof” please PM me.
well, first of all, halftracks were armed with two or three mg34s in 1939. the sdz 251s each carried a squad of panzergrenadiers, which carried two mg34s as their base of fire. when mounted, there was a front and rear mount where the two mgs could be placed.
From my understanding, the poles most likely ran away from the panzers and halftracks while the halftracks gunned them down with the mgs.
The stuff your talking about, 1000yrd, are calvary charges in the first world war against enemy infantry. THis is actually not unreasonable, as the russian cossacks performed this type of action in ww2, sometimes to good effect. however, i cannot fathom why polish calvary would charge tanks, unless they had some sort of satchel charge to place on the tanks. even so, the use of these men is completely criminal.
Please see my edited last post.
or goto
www.polishnews.com/fulltext/history/2001/history4.shtml
or just google “polish cavalry charges of world war 2”
From www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/P/Po/Polish_cavalry.htm
Cavalry charges and Nazi propagandaApart from countless battles and skirmishes in which the Polish cavalry units used the infantry tactics, there were 16 confirmed cavalry charges during the 1939 war. Contrary to common belief, most of them were succesful.
The first of them, and perhaps the best known, happened on September 1, 1939, during the (Click link for more info and facts about Battle of Krojanty) Battle of Krojanty. During the action elements of the Polish 18th Uhlans Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in a woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon.
The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed with heavy casualties and the Poles occupied the woods. Moreover, the German advance was stopped for enough time to allow the withdrawal of Polish 1st Rifle battalion and National Defence battalion Czersk from the area of (Click link for more info and facts about Chojnice) Chojnice. However, the sounds of the battle notified the crews of the (A drug combination found in some over-the-counter headache remedies (Aspirin and Phenacetin and Caffeine)) APCs stationed nearby and soon the Polish unit got under heavy (A rapidly firing automatic gun (often mounted)) machine gun fire. The Poles withdrew with the loss of 29 men killed and ca. 50 wounded (as compared with ca. 800 German losses).
The same day the German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from (A republic in southern Europe on the Italian Peninsula; was the core of the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire between the 4th century BC and the 5th century AD) Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, as well as German tanks that arrived to the place after the battle. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article, in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was used by German (Information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause) propaganda during the war. After the end of (A war between the Allies (Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, India, Iran, Iraq, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherl) World War II it was still used by Soviet propaganda as an example of stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for the war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.
Other cavalry charges of 1939 were as follows:
- Battle of Mokra - September 1 - 19th Volhynian Uhlans Regiment took by surprise the elements of German 4th Panzer Division, which retreated in panic. During the charge lances were used.
- Battle of Janów - September 1 - 11th Polish Legions’ Uhlans Regiment on a recce mission encountered a similar unit of German cavalry. Lieut. Kossakowski ordered a cavalry charge, but the enemy did not accept the battle and after a short clash the Germans withdrew towards their positions.
- Borowa Góra - September 2 - 1st squadron of the 19th Volhynian Uhlans Regiment encountered a squadron of German cavalry in the village of Borowa. A charge was ordered, but the Germans withdrew.
- Osuchowo - September 11 - 1st squadron of the 20th Uhlans Regiment charging through the lines of German infantry in order to avoid encirclement. Negligeable losses on both sides, the Poles broke through.
- Kałuszyn - September 12 - 4th squadron of the 11th Polish Legions Uhlans Regiment charged overnight at the German positions in the town of Kałuszyn. Despite the fact that the charge was an effect of a mistake (the Polish infantry commander issued a wrong order which was understood as a charge order while the cavalry was meant to simply move forward), it was a success. With heavy casualties on both sides, the town was retaken in the early morning.
- (Click link for more info and facts about Mińsk Mazowiecki) Mińsk Mazowiecki - September 13 - 1st squadron of the 2nd Grochów Uhlans Regiment charged German infantry positions, but was repelled by German MG fire and artillery.
- Maliszewo - September 13 - 1st squadron of the 27th Uhlans Regiment was engaged in heavy fighting in the vicinity of the village of Maliszewo. After the Germans were beaten and started to retreat towards the village, the Poles charged, took the village and large number of German prisoners of war.
- Brochowo - September 15 - elements of the 17th Greater Polish Uhlans Regiment charged towards the German positions to impose fear on the German infantry. However, soon before reaching the range of enemy weapons, the uhlans dismounted and continued their attack as infantry. The assault was successful.
- Dembowskie - September 16 - a platoon from the 4th squadron of the 17th Greater Polish Uhlans Regiment charged towards a small German outpost located around a foresters’ hut. The charge did not succeed since… the Germans welcomed the Polish uhlans with their hands up and there were no casualties.
- Battle of Wólka Węglowa - September 19 - Most of the 14th Jazłowiec Uhlans Regiment (without MGs and AT platoon) was ordered to probe the German forces near the town of Wólka Węglowa. After joined by elements of 9th Lesser Polish Uhlans Regiment, the group was ordered to charge through the German lines to open the way towards (The capital and largest city of Poland; located in central Poland) Warsaw and (Click link for more info and facts about Modlin) Modlin for the rest of Polish forces withdrawing from the (Click link for more info and facts about Battle of Bzura) Battle of Bzura. The Poles charged through German artillery barrage and took the German infantry completely passive. Polish losses were high (205 killed and wounded), the German remain unknown, but the Polish unit broke through and was the first to reach Warsaw after the Battle of Bzura.
- Łomianki - September 19 - recce squad of 6th Mounted Artillery Detachment charged through the German lines in the town of Łomianki and paved the way for the rest of the unit to Warsaw.
- Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa] - September 21 - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.
- Krasnobród - September 23 - 1st squadron of the 25th Greater Polish Uhlans Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. With heavy casualties, the uhlans reached the hill on top of which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the 8th Infantry Division counter-charged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ of the division, together with its commander.
- Husynne - September 24 - reserve squadron of the 14th Jazłowiec Uhlans Regiment (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of the police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was lead by the mounted Police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic. However, soon the attack was stopped by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties similar on both sides.
- Morańce - September 26 - 27th Uhlans Regiment charged twice a German infantry battalion fortified in the village of Morańce. Both charges were repelled with heavy casualties (Poles lost 20 KIA and ca. 50 WIA, German losses remain unknown), but after the second charge the Germans sent an envoy with a white flag and, after a short chat with the Polish commander of the Nowogródek Cavalry Brigade, the Germans withdrew.
Hosenfeld claimed
“From my understanding, the poles most likely ran away from the panzers and halftracks while the halftracks gunned them down with the mgs.”
As this account shows you are talking out of your arse!!!
Do not underestimate the bravery of the Poles in WW2. They fought the Germans and the Russians both.
Panzers were most definitly encountered by the Poles, aswell as various dismounted infantry and their supporting vehicles.
But which HMGs were they equipped with ?
Mg34 on fixed halftrack stabilizer,or 20mm flak. I never said polish calvary were never used. I said they didn’t charge tanks.
. The Poles withdrew with the loss of 29 men killed and ca. 50 wounded (as compared with ca. 800 German losses).
ok, now this is kinda ludicrous. A bunch of calvary men kill and wound 800 men armed with machineguns and rifles.
from this article it seems that poland won the war. the source is odd.
Invasion of poland losses., wikipedia.
Polish losses 66,000 dead[2]133,700 wounded694,000 captured
German losses 16,343 dead 27,280 wounded 320 missing
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposing_forces_in_the_Polish_September_Campaign
"German military theories were based upon the notion that successful offenses would be based on new inventions—tanks and planes. Poland stood in the middle: acknowledging the benefits of mobility but unwilling (and unable) to invest heavily in the expensive and unproven new inventions, it turned to cavalry, which the Polish Army considered its elite corps. During the September Campaign, the Polish Cavalry would prove to be much more successful than anybody, the Germans included, could have anticipated. Polish Cavalry brigades were used as a mobile infantry and were quite successful against German infantry. Cavalry charges were rare but successful, especially when used against infantry in un-entrenched positions. However, while Polish cavalry matched German panzers in speed and anti-infantry effectiveness, in the end it simply could not stand its ground against tanks.
Among the interesting equipment Polish forces used with success was the 7.92 mm Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35 anti-tank rifle. It was quite successful against German light tanks, although, as with most of modern Polish equipment, production was just beginning when the war started, and thus wasn’t fielded in numbers large enough to significantly change the outcome of the war."
From www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm
“Polish army lacked motorized transport and relied on foot infantry and horse drawn transport. In addition, Polish army was not fully mobilized and surrounded by the enemy from three sides along 3000 kilometers long frontier.”
The quote I particularly like and possible an indicator to the cause of much confusion is from www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/1939.html
Another popular myth is that the millions of Germans stormed into Poland on motorcycles, motorized troop carriers, and tanks. Nazi propaganda tried to show the world that their Wehrmacht was armed with dozens of armored divisions, but in reality they only had 6 true divisions. German armor production was in its early stages and the tanks that made it to the front were mostly light tanks only carrying machine guns–the PzKw I and PzKw II. The Germans relied on horses to do the bulk of the transportation as well as reconnaissance, and nearly all artillery was pulled by horses. The vast majority of the infantry had to march on foot. In fact, the average German infantry division employed nearly 5,000 horses and was not completely motorized until 10 years after the war ended. Still, this proved to be enough to overwhelm the Poles. Poland had less than 1/3 the armor strength of the Germans, but were still greater in numbers than the United States.
The most infamous myth is the fantasy that the Polish cavalry charged at German tanks. These units were thought to be the best horsemen in Europe, but were relied upon mainly for their cost-effectiveness, since few vehicles were available. Despite their antiquated means of travel, Polish cavalry were used primarily as heavy infantry for break-outs or surprise attacks. They carried machine guns, 7.92mm anti-tank rifles, and 37mm anti-tank guns which could easily take out German armor. Cavalry charges were not a standard tactic, but on the first day of the war a Polish cavalry regiment discovered a battalion of Germans in a field and led a charge against them. The Germans were caught off guard and suffered severe casualties, but were rescued by the advancing panzers, who opened fire on the exposed cavalry. The Poles fled, but only lost 20 men, including the commanding officer, Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz. However, when Italian journalists visited the battlefield the following day, the Germans told them that the cavalry had charged against their tanks and were wiped out. This fabrication was put into print and the Nazi propaganda made sure it was widely publicized, and therefore widely believed."
I am still hunting for info on the few occaisions when Polish Cavalry fought nazi panzers.
Also from anglefire
“Even so, Polish citizens tried to turn Warsaw into a fortress as they dug 13 miles of trenches, overturned furniture, cars and trolleys to form makeshift barricades. Sniper fire and Molotov cocktails rained down on the arrival of German troops. The 140,000 remaining Polish soldiers held on for another week amidst horrifically intense street fighting that could be compared to the chaos in Stalingrad. Hitler was so enraged at the German inability to take the city that he ordered a “carpet bombing” and sent 420 bombers to level the city on 25 September, which the Poles still call “Black Monday.” Refugees fled the Polish capital, but the Germans forced them back in order to starve the city into a surrender. The last bombing attacks were again from the Ju-87 Stukas, followed by incindiary bombs from Ju-52 transports, eventually bringing Warsaw to its knees. This was too much for the defenders, who were out of food, water, electricity and munitions, forcing them to finally surrender on 27 September. Modlin held out for another two days under a merciless bombardment before surrendering to the SS. Hela held off the Germans until 1 October when it was clear that continued resistance was pointless. Within hours of the surrender in a rail car in Rakow, the SS began gathering Jews to be sent to concentration camps or simply executed on the spot.”
The nazi invasion of Poland was never really the turkey shoot some would have us believe.
Ah 20 mil. ack-ack gun. I didn’t think the 20mm FLAK was used on the halftracks until '41 or '42, way after the invasion of Poland.
So no HMGs then ?
Just point out I never actually said they charged tanks, specifically.
My exact words were “in to the Blitzkreig”
However they did fight tanks, both with horse drawn/transported weapons and on foot in amongst the vehicles.
An account by one who WAS there, a M. Kamil Dziewanowski, at the time platoon commander in the 3rd squadron, 3rd Light Horse regiment.
from www.polishnews.com/fulltext/history/2001/history4.shtml
"After all, we had to make the best conditions imposed on us by war, not of our seeking. Each day, our techniques of fighting the enemy hiding behind armor improved. It was a technique of pursuit, of ambush, and of ruses.
A machine that looked formidable at a distance began to show, especially at night, its impotence against daredevils who had the nerve to approach the tanks and throw gasoline-filled bottles. Others crept up to wreck the caterpillar treads of these tanks with bunches of hand grenades. During the first week, our antitank guns destroyed 31 enemy armored vehicles. We smashed at least a dozen of them with bottles and grenades. We took over 200 prisoners.
Thus, step by step, from a proud cavalry brigade we had turned into an outfit of tank hunters. By night we lost ourselves in woods and marched over trackless ground to harass the enemy's armored columns at rest stops or on the march.
We realized, however, that in the long run, it was all hopeless. The numbers and the firepower were against us. Moreover, the beautiful, sunny weather seemed to be conspiring with the invaders, helping the speedy progress of their armor facilitating the bombardment."
Later on in the war on a completely different note, the Russian Cossacks actually charged nazi panzers. Although in this case most of the panzers were frozen to the floor!!!
Ah 20 mil. ack-ack gun. I didn’t think the 20mm FLAK was used on the halftracks until '41 or '42, way after the invasion of Poland.
So no HMGs then ?[/quote]
the mg34, being a general purpose mg, was classified as a HMG when on a gun stabilizer mount. 20mills could be thrown onto halftracks whenever they wanted. anyway, there were armored cars that had 20mm