Hi Kent, I do not believe either the new testament or the old testament is a fairy story, rather what I believe is that they are stories with a legitimate moral basis which recount real events with aspects told in somewhat exagerated terms when it comes to “miracles” and such like. Now it is perfectly legitimate to explain your global view here but if your are propositioning that Hitler had supernatural assistance I really would like you to explain why, everything went so well for him till after he invaded Russia and then things went wrong.
Pretty much agreed on that, Hitler’s great problem in Russia is that since the Third Reich was defacto committed to the extermination of the bulk of the Russian people which allied to the insufficent numbers of troops the Reich could commit to the Eastern front, meant that there was no political package the Reich could offer the Russian people as an alternative to Stalinist Communism and therefor the Reich’s only way of prevailing over Russia was a short War which would crush Russia. The Reich could not fight a war of attrition in Russia and once the offensive stalled it was only a matter of when not if, Russian tanks would be arriveing at the Fuhrer bunker in Berlin. Your point about Russia and “treating the people decently” is a good one" but that was never a possibility given Hitler’s ideology of race struggle.
The supernatural assistants Hitler was entertaining never play fair, and although they may offer help, and for a time it may appear they actually are, ultimately, they only do so to achieve their own ends. Here’s what Jesus says about the devil in His reply to the Pharisees (John 8:44b):
“…He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
There is a real devil, and although he was convicted and condemmed to everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice of Himself on the cross, the devil’s sentence will not be carried out until Christ’s return. In the meantime, the devil is working very hard to take as many of us with him as he can.
The devil is NOT the almost likeable, wise-cracking trickster you see in TV sit-coms.
Hi I am well aware of the concept that any contract with the devil would not be worth the paper it is written on and one could therefor easily understand the devil double crossing somebody, who was not a totally bad person, but I would have thought that Hitler being such a thoroughly bad egg, would have got a lot more support from the Devil in that e.g. the extermination campaign against the Jews did not really get under way until the invasion of the USSR and that it is only with invasion of Russia that things start to go wrong for Hitler and since he was being even more nasty and vicious at that stage than he had been before, one would have thought he would have got more support from the devil not less. As for the Devil being condemned by Christ on the cross, well if the Devil was around before Christ was born and doing devil things ie evil things, it did not take Christ being on the Cross to get him a punishment because in the old testament God was existing long before the birth of Christ and God could have punished him.
Yes, one would think that as long as Hitler was doing Satan’s bidding that Satan would keep assisting Hitler, all the while cheering him on. However, Satan is a creature, superhuman but not divine; having no more power than God allows him.
Job 1:12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” (ie: Don’t kill him.) So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
Luke 22:31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat.
These are but two of many verses that speak to the principal of God’s total sovereignty over all His creation. The words “total” and “all” are to be taken literally. Known theologically as “God’s Eternal Decree; God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass”. Think about it. God created the universe out of nothing, and sustains it by His power, ie: providence. He is not a passive observer, as some claim, but is in active control. And the word “ordain” signifies He does not foresee the future, He foreknows it.
Daniel 4:34b, 35 For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven, and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand, or say to Him, “What have You done?”
Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done. On earth as it is in heaven.
Acts 7:21a for in Him we live, and move, and exist.
Romans 11:36a For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all thing after the counsel of His will.
Adrian, the short answer to your first question is: God’s in charge, not Satan.
Now, regarding your second question on Satan vs. Christ, you have asked for an explanation of God’s plan for our salvation, whether you meant to, or not. Regardless, I will attempt to give you a brief synopsis of the Gospel, ie: the Bible. The quickest answer is Jesus Christ is both God eternal, and incarnate. I’ll elaborate.
Adam’s sin, the eating of the fruit God commanded him not to eat, introduced sin into God’s heretofore perfect creation, bringing the curse of God upon him and the rest of the creation because God is holy and will not let sin go unpunished. Adam’s sin also brought death into the world; both physical, and spiritual (everlasting punishment).
Being the very first human, and the original father of us all, Adam’s sinful nature, acquired by his rebellious act, is imputed to his offspring through normal regeneration. If we need any proof of that we only have to look at Adam’s first child, Cain, who ended up murdering his brother Abel out of jealousy. We are all born sinful, hating God, and deserving of His wrath. Sounds hopeless doesn’t it? But God by His grace (of which we are totally undeserving, but is wholly given to us by His mercy) had a plan.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish*, but have everlasting life.
*be spared/saved from God’s punishment for our sins, and go to heaven and be with Him forever.
Jesus Christ is God’s only Son, begotten (conceived) by God’s Spirit in a virgin’s womb, born without original (Adam’s) sin. He is God incarnate, with an inseparable nature that is both fully God, and fully man, ie: divine. God’s greatest miracle. After living a sinless life, He became the only sacrifice acceptable to God the Father for the atonement for sins, both past and present. Jesus was crucified on the cross, being totally sinless and innocent nevertheless, He willingly submitted to His Father’s will, and willingly accepted the punishment we deserved, and suffered under the full wrath of God the Father for all the sins of mankind. Only Jesus Christ, the God-Man could do this due to His sinlessness, and great value to God. We know this to be true because if Christ’s life and sacrifice had been unacceptable to God, then God would not have raised him (resurrected his physical being) from the dead on the third day.
Although Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for the sin everyone, both past and present, it is only efficient for believers (faith). Look at John 3:16, again. The operative word is, “whoever”, which does not include everyone. The one and only way we can be “saved” from God’s wrath is to believe in His Son, and what the Son accomplished. Once again, it is God who is in control:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved though faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
My candidate for the best definition/explanation of spiritual faith was penned by John Calvin; “God gracefully gives some people the ability to believe Him.”
Rising Sun,
You really hit me with a barrage so, pardon me while I just hit the high points.
Romans 1:20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21: For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.
That’s more of the same Scripture I assume you are questioning(?) In brief, it says God points to His creation as the evidence of His existence, and not believing it does requires one to employ tortured logic. You have do ask yourself, “Could all this really happen by chance?” If you believe it did then, you have much more of a different kind of faith than me.
You either have the God of the Bible, or a god of your own making.
If you take Bible passages out of their context you are doomed to confusion. Text out of context is a pretext.
If you are living life as if there is no God, you’d better be right.
Quoting scripture to justify archaic beliefs is a little tawdry.
One of the conventions of historians is that they keep personal belief out of analysis…
We then do not get lengthy explainations from the “God was on our side” evangelistic school of historical thought…and we stick to the facts, therefore.
God, devil, heaven/hell don’t exist anyway, so quoting scripture to explain the “righteousness” of one cause or another really is doing a dis-service to those that come to this site looking for hard data…and opinions with some kind of factual basis.
Don’t you think that German believers also thought the God concept was on THEIR side?
Believers make me laugh…Dispense with the “Billy Graham” explainations of the causes, course and outcome of WW2.
Stick to the facts as they appear on EARTH. The rest is a figment of imagination anyway…
Statements such as this one from above contribute NOTHING to our understanding of the history of WW2…
“We know this to be true because if Christ’s life and sacrifice had been unnacceptable to God then God would not have raised him on the third day…”
How or what you can base this religiously correct tripe on is beyond me…
Ressurrection and god are CONCEPTS, and vastly UNPROVEN at that. Pointing out one unproven concept to justify another might be standard practice in a Seminary, but in history you begin with what you can prove, and then speculate on this basis. Airheads that rave on about god’s will or “God wanted this” lose credibility for the historical stuff they might come up with. Delusionists that have a “personal audience with the almighty” on a daily basis really do belong in a monestary, and their religious opinions have absolutely nothing to do with history.
It is a poor historian that has to mention religon at all, except as explainational motivation for behaviour. Make too much of it and you may as well get your work published by a Church publishing house, to be sold in the “Religon” section of the bookstore, rather than the “non-fiction” section…
Local believers on the site need not comment in outrage…I couldn’t give a toss what you thought anyway…just keep religious views or explaination OUT.
Try writing an academic paper and using the same evangelism…I know what your grade will be…F
Ladies and Gentlemen
I would just like to point out that this is a site about WW2 history, not about theology in all it’s forms. Discussions about the existence or otherwise of God, the Devil or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be confined either to specific threads in Off Topic or omitted from this site altogether.
For the record, I consider any statement that “there is no God” to be equally a statement of belief to “there is a God”, as both are by their nature unproven and probably unprovable statements, and I will act accordingly in moderating subsequent comments.
Wow this guy sounds just like Aly j:shock:
There could be two Aly js on here.
Only joking but you remind me of my self-smiles.
I also think that his biggest mistake was that he made two fronts by attacking Russia before finishing off the other front first and that cost me dearley.
Cheers
The central belief is that there is an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster, who created the entire universe “after drinking heavily.”[13] The Monster’s intoxication was supposedly the cause for a flawed earth. All evidence for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in an effort to test Pastafarians’ faith — a form of the Omphalos hypothesis. When scientific measurements, such as radiocarbon dating, are made, the Flying Spaghetti Monster “is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage.”[3]
The Pastafarian belief of heaven stresses that it contains beer volcanoes and a stripper factory.[25] Hell is similar, except that the beer is stale, and the strippers have VD.[26]
Henderson uses parallel concepts from religious texts when describing the FSM, poking fun at those who literally interpret the Bible. The religious text of the Pastafarian religion is called the Loose Canon instead of the formal Canon. In place of the Ten Commandments, it contains the Eight I’d Really Rather You Didn’ts.
The official conclusion to prayers is “RAmen”, contained in certain sections of The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and so on. It is a portmanteau of the Semitic term “Amen” (used in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) and Ramen, a type of noodle. While it is typically spelled with both a capital “R” and “A”, it is also acceptable to spell it with only a capital R.
Yeah, I get these kind of reactions whenever I quote the Bible, but I know by now to expect them. I also know that I am off topic for this particular forum so, if you’re interested, Adrian has respectfully started a new one in that venue. 'Sorry, for the disruption.
