Nonsense Raising Sun. There is always some excuse for the poor execution of British land forces. The Brits (land forces) didn’t offer any significant contribution in any theater in which they faught. They certainly did not contribute, in any major factor in the land war on the European continent. You mentioned Burma being difficult for the British, so was Guadalcanal. In fact, we were spread thin AND short on supplies. At one point all they had to eat was peanut butter. It has been previously stated by others that, on land, the only tradition the Brits have is loosing, and I will their points to make mine. I will say that 32Bravo is right on the money.
Was attempting to respond to yours of 2/22/16. 42Bravo is correct. And it is not being hard on the Brits simply to recite the facts of history. And it should be noted that the opponents facing the Brits had difficulties of their own and somehow they managed to prevail while the English failed to execute.
Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
“It almost appears that the British begin their campaigns with a retreat: Coruna, Mons, Dunkirk, Burma - to name a few. Usually due to a lack of preparedness on account of those that think the British Army is somehow superior to their opponents - until the lessons have been learned.“
Right on 32Bravo, just one thing, where is the evidence that the Brits ever learned? This is why Monty was rather unsuccessful because he failed to consider what the enemy can do vs his idea of how good he and his men were.
Em, there is a quote function, which would make your posts a bit clearer. Click on “Reply With Quote” on the lower right, please…
First one was probably Arras, which halted the German advance.
Operation Goodwood in which they pincered in with American and Canadian forces resulting in the Falaise Gap. The lightening assault into, and rapid liberation of, Belgium (albeit undermined by Monty’s massive blunder and failure to clear the Scheldt Estuary). Operation Market Garden, which was overall a failure but still certainly showed the potential heroism of the Tommy, even if in vain…
Perhaps one of Britain’s greatest contributions to the war overall was wrestling away the initial Allied strategy and operational planning from the U.S. Army command, the Americans wanted to immediately launch a completely infeasible assault into France in 1944 as they greatly underestimated the complexity of the operation, and the power of the early-to-mid war Wehrmacht. The British outmaneuvered their American counterparts resulting in Operation Torch, that gave the green American Army invaluable combat experience and also allowed for the buildup of arms and landing craft necessary for Overlord…
There was one operation in which the British did sort of okay, (in between Honey Butter Crumpets, and Ceylon Tea) what was it again, oh yeah, operation Chariot. I believe they went in order to post some unflattering posters of Hitler, and then Hee-Haw as they left,perhaps even a bit of toilet papering as well, but the plan didn’t go quite as planned. (British can’t get anything right you know…) instead of being rude to Hitler, they mistakenly destroyed the only Dry Dock facilities that could have held the Bismark for repairs. Just Bad Form if you ask me, Seems it took several years to finally repair the Dock. Never mind all of that inconvenient shore battery fire, tis but a scratch. Well, the British had to do something with all of those Victoria Crosses that they had laying about, cluttering up the Palace.
Nickdfresh, great cover for the hapless Brits. I ask for battle field action by the British army. Most of what you sited only makes the point. The Brits were dismal in Holland and Market Garden was worse. I wonder if the Germans had any respect for the British army? And yes they certainly were great at planning but they could not execute. Blame it on Monty.
This pointless defence by you and Nick of consistent British incompetence and cowardice for the whole of WWII is intolerable, and all the more so coming from Americans.
You appear to be referring to the raid on St Nazaire.
I make only two points to undermine your empty defence of the British.
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HMS Campbeltown was an American lend-lease destroyer, previously the USS Buchanan, so once again Britain didn’t really contribute anything to this operation and couldn’t have executed it without American help.
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Anyway, the Brits didn’t succeed as the incompetent Brits ran the USS Buchanan aground and destroyed it, as shown in the following photo.
Please refer and apply Nick’s post at #84, because otherwise nobody has any idea to whom or what you are responding.
Click “Reply with quote” bottom right under the post to which you are responding and then put your text under the quoted post.
Agreed! it takes a particularly high level of incompetence to get through miles of shore batteries blowing great holes in the ship, then only to run it right into huge Doors which were plainly evident to anyone looking in that direction. One can not help but think they were intent, and deliberate in their actions. Perhaps the Bridge crew were in the ward room enjoying Brandy, and Cigars, trading witty Japes, and just didn’t notice. Further, I looked into the Archives, and discovered that Britain did not get their lease security deposit back, as running an otherwise perfectly good Bomb into Dock Doors was not considered normal wear, and tear. (America makes it’s money in the fine print) 
Yeah, well, the Brits didn’t always get crumpets, never mind the honey and butter. But they soldiered on, barely existing on tea while lying down for the whole war in Europe until America won.
Exactly!
When did any competent or, up to this point, incompetent navy manage to run into a door, for Chrissake!
Makes the Royal Navy attempts to force the Dardanelles in WWI look highly sophisticated, although that was also by the same RN and just another failure in Britain’s centuries of unbroken naval and military failures and defeats.
Nearly made a fool of myself by responding to what I misread as ‘Japs’ when you said ‘Japes’.
I was going to interrogate you harshly about why, first, anybody had managed to capture even one witty Jap and, second, given Admiral King’s extreme hostility to British colonialism, a former USN ship would be loaded with Japs to be traded by indolent British officers which distracted them from the imminent collision with the doors.
However, when I realised it was ‘japes’ and could imagine the rampant buggery, sado-masochism, cross-dressing and other forms of depravity which kept the Royal Navy afloat (and I’m referring there only to the politicians running the show but, of course, excluding Winston as he was originally Army where none of that bad bum buggery happened) but which understandably distracted watchkeepers from basic seamanship by forcing them to spend most of their time looking behind themselves, it surprised me not at all that the ship managed to find inland doors into which to crash.
Not quite correct.
Britain didn’t get its security deposit back at the time, much like you don’t get yours back if you run your hire car into a highly visible door off the road (or, in this case, off the ocean where the ship could be expected to be covered by insurance), but it was sort of included in Britain’s final payment to the US in 2006 or thereabouts for all the stuff that the US sent to Britain in WWII (or before WWII if you take the American timing for the start of WWII in December 1941 against the British - and German, French, Polish and others’ timing a couple of years earlier, which is illustrated at
which was wasted as Britain didn’t actually do anything in WWII.
The raid was inconsequential to the overall war effort. Besides I ask for examples of pivotal LAND battles on the European continent. And not British forces under the command of the United States, rather independent action such as that undertaken by Paton; who’s direction action led to a quick end to the war in Europe. I will grant the the British navy occasionally showed up and did, now and then fight, at least a much greater extent than the British army. The British airforce was good in action and overall did good job throughout the war. AND the British army, as previously stated in detail by other in this string, has a long and storied record of poor performances on the battlefield. But let’s keep it to WWll keep in mind that in every case the enemy, be they German or Japanese, had difficulties of their own.
Where is the (a) great land battle that helped turn the tide in any theater…land battle… but if you want to throw in naval action because it is impossible to find a significant land battle, ok, I will accept that as evidence that the British contributed to the quick end to the war. And even sighting one example pales in comparison to the consistent strings of victories by the US. Again Azaire was inconsequential AND not a land battle.
Hey, it is August. Can someone start a thread about the bomb? Should we or should we have not dropped the bomb? I would do it but I am not very computer lietate.
And of course you selectively only choose the negative ones…
Most of what you sited only makes the point.
Picking out Market Garden isn’t most…
The Brits were dismal in Holland and Market Garden was worse.
Operation(s) Market (and) Garden was/were pretty much the same as their advance into Holland. The British Army moved rapidly and professionally through Belgium and actually took much of the Netherlands despite the failure of Monty’s coup de main operation to breakout yet again into the Ruhr. But again judging a narrow scope of operational failures is bit silly. Did your father’s US Army suck because of the abortion that was the Hürtgen Forest debacle? Kasserine Pass? Monte Cassino? The failure to anticipate the intelligence leading to The Battle of the Bulge? …
I wonder if the Germans had any respect for the British army? And yes they certainly were great at planning but they could not execute. Blame it on Monty.
The Germans had much respect depending on the unit. The Waffen SS practically worshiped the British paras of the 1st Div they captured, after their bitter defense of Arnhem. But of course American divisions also took part in the defeat. Both the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions were also in Holland and the leader of the 82nd, Gen. Jim Gavin chose to secure the Oosterbeek Heights rather than quickly capture the bridge at Nijmegen. Does that make the 82nd shit? Of course not! Gavin was a hero that fought with a broken back, had some good reasons for securing the heights (although there is no question he should have rushed the bridge), and generally handled his sector well.
Try reading a bit more…
That subject has been done to Death many times over, it’s somewhere in the Archives, but honestly it would not attract much more attention.
If you would like to start a new Thread, just go to the particular Board for that subject on the main page, and you’ll see a blue elongated button in the upper left corner marked “+Post New Thread”. click that, and follow the prompts.
Well aside from the method of ingress, The St. Nazaire Raid surely was a land Battle. (whether you accept that, or not) The general membership are not here to appease your sense of what is, or is not fact, or acceptable. This site is for sharing of information among ourselves. The outcome of the Raid crippled the Axis capacity to repair it’s largest Ships, resulting in their not being placed at risk on the open Oceans. Hardly a minor outcome.
Yes, we are always,(and sometimes Fashionably) Late for Wars. We have to bring the Cat in, check the mail, look over the sports page while drinking Coffee. (sorry, no Crumpets) . Then after a good stretch, and a shave, we finally get moving, and join in. These Days, the Millenials will wake up at the crack of 1pm, check the I-phone, and say, What another War?! can I do it on Face Book? (of course I jest, in truth, it would be 2 pm) .