I would say U-571 because if I’m right, then the British captured the Enigma code machine, not the Americans… But I guess a film celebrating a British victory wouldn’t have sold well in America.
Largebrew that sounds like it! I seem to remember various M60’s in D.A.K. insignia.
Yes, I have heard that too. I seem to remember nurses using lipstick to mark the wounded in more recent triage as well somewhere.
But it did happen. Just because the actual U-boat was not named 571 does not mean it did not happen. Not only is it offensive, but it is ignorant of you to believe that I believe “everything Hollywood tells” me. You are way, way off there buddy. If ever there was a sceptic about motion pictures, it’s me. How about knowing what you speak of before claiming someone is gullible. Such a claim only makes YOU the gullible one afterall.
Having a “historical education” as you say, hasn’t a thing to do with it anyway, since the formal education people receive, here or in in the UK, is not in-depth enough for people to know the names of the actual U-boats that were captured, the names of the ships that were sunk in WWII, or any of the countless, highly important facts of the events of WWII. Not everyone is a WWII buff.
It is unfortunate that formal education does not provide as much information as there is in the world, but then, that’s the world for you. A lack of historical “education” is not new in the UK, or anywhere else. There simply is too much information for the amount of time available to educate someone in school. It takes 12 years to give someone a basic education, more to make them a pseudo-expert, and years of work experience in their related field to make them a true expert.
Example: I studied photography at the New York Institute of Photography (founded 1910). Did that make me an expert? No. It gave me an almost incalculable head-start with book knowledge. It took years of using photographic equipment, making mistakes, learning from them, refining technique and method to make me a photographic expert. Formal education in any field is the same way. Even physicians make mistakes and learn as they work.
And for crying out loud, stop criticizing me behind my back like a cowardly child. Grow up.
The problem with the film is that it insinuates the Americans were the first to get a hold of the four rotor encoding machine. This is wrong. It was not captured by the Americans in the first instance, it was captured by two British Submariners who cross decked to a sinking German submarine as emulated in the film. - Except without the whole dressed as Germans mission from washington Blather!
The Film is inaccurate Hollywood popcorn cinema and is conseqeuently Shite (as a war film)
Ironman, the problem with the Film from our perspective is that it gives the impression that the USN was responsible for the capture of the U-boat enigma machine. (Which used 4 rotors, and thus a more complex encoding algorithm than the standard Whermacht/Luftwaffe/Surface fleet 3 arm machine.)
In fact, an enigma machine was captured from a U-boat on the 9th May 1941 by the crew of HMS Bulldog, which, as I’m sure your aware, predates the German decleration of war on the US by several weeks.
http://uboat.net/boats/u110.htm
Alex
It was far more useful than you realize. I understand that you think not, since it was not captured by the British. The capture of ANY enigma material was important, since the codes constantly changed, and the most recent information is highly useful. The boat had 900 lbs. of code books onboard, which provided more information than most U-boats would have. Some of the codes captured on the 505 were key to others used by other U-boats, and helped all Allied efforts to break the enigma codes. It hastened the demise of the German Wolf packs. It allowed for a much more precise determining of the loacation of the U-boats, which enabling allied convoys to ship supplies to Britian with much lower losses. Your country got much needed food, airplane parts, and other supplies it would not have because of it’s capture. 
“The capture of codebooks on U-505 allowed American cryptanalysts to occasionally break the special “coordinate” code in enciphered German messages and determine more precise locations for U-boat operating areas. In addition to vectoring in hunter-killer task groups on these locations, these coordinates enabled Allied convoy commanders to route shipping away from known U-boat locations, greatly inhibiting the effectiveness of German submarine patrols.”
“The Task Group’s brilliant achievement in disabling, capturing, and towing to a United States base a modern enemy man-of-war taken in combat on the high seas is a feat unprecedented in individual and group bravery, execution, and accomplishment in the Naval History of the United States.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-505
A virtual tour of the U-505 and other cool info:
http://www.msichicago.org/exhibit/U505/index.html
Just so you know, it was important.
Yes, I know that the film depicts the 571 and not the 505 which is the one the US actually captured. I agree that it’s bullshiot from Hollywood. But then, that’s the movie business. Whatever sells. Most films are not historically acurate. I can see how that would have pissed off the British. But please don’t blame Americans for it, blame the movie industry. In Europe of the US, it’s an industry filled with greed and fantasy.
Ironman, I fail to see where we said that we blamed Americans for the inaccuracies of U-571? (Or any other Hollywood production for that matter!)
Most people are well aware that it is Hollywood which does these things, not America as a whole, but nonetheless, its worth remembering that for many people, Hollywood is the most prominent part of America that they see, which is why sometimes America as a whole is tarred with the same brush.
It’s probably best not to overestimate the effect the capture of U-505 had on the war effort. It was after all captured in June of 1944. By this point, Bletchley Park was routinely reading and decrypting German transmissions, resulting in Ultra intelligence as we all know. While the capture of the U-505 was undoubtedly an outstanding feat, it’s importance to ULTRA is probably more one of filling in a few fine details in the vast body of what was already known.
By June 1944, the U-boat threat was sufficiently contained that the US was able to build up vast forces in the UK with a minimum of harassment from U-boats. Indeed, two days after the capture of U-505, troops were going ashore at Normandy.
Captures of Enigma equipment etc. were not too uncommon. More than a dozen naval sets were captured at various times during the war. Bletchley was in damn-near mass production of decrypts well before 4 June 1944.
By 4 June 1944 the German codes were well and truly compromised, and Bletchley was able to crack any new codes in fairly short order. Remember - the source of ULTRA intelligence was one of the best kept secrets of the war: a bare minimum of people knew about the work done at Bletchley, and decision whether to even act on the intelligence was agonized over at the highest level, lest they ‘give the game away’ and the Germans know their codes were compromised. It is thought that Donitz did suspect, but arrogance within the German military was such that the mere suggestion that the codes were compromised was dismissed outright. The net effect: by the end of 1943, being a member of U-boat crew was an occupation with a decidely short term future, and ULTRA intelligence allowed not only the routing of convoys away from the wolf-packs, but also the direction of hunter-killer forces to attack the U-boats.
All of this applies well before the capture of U-505, and is thanks in no small part to the efforts of the US, both in terms of their own forces and in terms of vital equipment provided to the UK and Canada.
I don’t think I was overestimating the value of the 505. However, I do think the comment,
actually underestimates the value of it, which prompted my post. Especially since this:
is what it’s capture helped the Allies to do, according to:
The real value of the capture of the U505 enigma was that it confirmed that the Germans had not cracked on that their codes had been compromised.
The real issue is the historical innacuracies in the movie U571 when fiction is portrayed as fact it annoy’s those that put their ball on the block even 50-60 years after the fact. You only have to look at the flack that flew over Band of Brothers re, the Eagal’s nest ( Burchase Garden)
I would be more prepared to take issue with Objective Burma (1945) which was withdrawn in the UK and I believe Austrilia following
riots in the cinemas by Burma veterans angry that the Liberation of Burma was portrayed as a US oppreation. Many Austailians felt further betrayed as the star was Errol Flynn, born in Tasmania so Austrailian by birth. The liberation of Burma was predominantly a Commenwealth opperation.
No, the real value of it is that it provided a special code that decrypted other code (the special “coordinate” code, see previous post) used by the Wolf Packs as a whole, and most of the other U-boats did not have this code book on board. It might serve you to read my posts before combating them. Read the post again. Then you will see that your above statement is incorrect.
Are you annoyed by the film industry of France, UK, or any other country? Does it disrupt your day knowing that the film industry is run by greedy liberals who care little for historical facts? It seems that the real issue for you is that you wish badly for the capture of the 505 to have been insignificant, although it was not. We all realize that films are not necessarily historically accurate.
First, it is important to know that the US played an important part in Burma’s liberation.
“To the north, American-trained Chinese troops and American guerrillas under Brigadier General Frank D. Merrill, sustained mainly by airdrops, seized the airfield at Myitkyina in northern Burma in May 1944 and reopened the Burma Road to China in January 1945.”
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/cp20.htm
While the British may have done most of the work and should take credit overall for the liberation of Burma, you seem to be aluding that the US was not involved, and therefore the film industry has no right making a film about US involvement. The Burma Road was important to British victory there, let’s not forget.
However, I think it’s rather sad that you seem to keep statistics on American films which are historically innacurate. I thought everyone understood that the film industry is not a source for reliable factual information. Good Lord man. The US is not evil because the film industry in your country and mine is run by greedy liberals. Get a grip on yourself. Since when has the entertainment industry in any country ever cared about historical accuracy?
Something else that is significant, is that this, like several other threads here, was created specifically for the purpose of citing American made films which are historically innacurate so that you British boys have something to biotch about. I guess you think the underhandedness is invisible, eh? Just like the thread that Bluffcove kindly created about “Pets” so he could try to hurt my feelings about my recently deceased dog, and others. To me, that is truly sad. It is quite obvious that this thread is the thought-sibling of the other, in which someone bantered the film U-571 already. Had the one who started this thread not has an anti-American agenda, this thread would not have existed.
Why not get a grip on yourself and just discuss WWII for what it was, instead of slanting the subject matter and creating threads expressly for the purpose of trying to demean the US, so that those who do would not be culpable? It is simply ridiculous and offensive. Please, find another outlet for your disdain. Let’s keep this site for honest discussion, not for blather and agendas.
It was far more useful than you realize. I understand that you think not, since it was not captured by the British.
But it was not THAT important, read festamus post. I believe that by 1944 the risk of U-boat attack was fairly undercontrol.
Your country got much needed food, airplane parts, and other supplies it would not have because of it’s capture.
As a little note I am not British, so it did not bring much needed food or supplies to my country
The capture of codebooks on U-505 allowed American cryptanalysts to occasionally break the special “coordinate” code in enciphered German messages and determine more precise locations for U-boat operating areas.
Note it states U-505 allowed American cryptanalysts. The British where already doing it.
So I agree that the Capture of U-505 was usefull, but it was not a big factor. Not a big enough factor to twist the facts in a movie. But like many people said before, hollywood is just hollywood.
Edited for some quote problems.
Ironman this is not attack on American take off you tinfoil hat and stop thinking we are out to get you (in this particular thread)
We are annoyed with Hollywood for building the USN up tio have been the originators of the Enigma “solution”
It has been shown that the capture of the enigma machine was in the first instance an British Affair, the Film insinuates and implies that it was the USN that cpatured the First enigma and consequently saved the Atlantic convoys. The USN didnt capture an enigma machine until four years after the British, as a result, the work of the US “cyptoanalysts” was either four years behind Turin and the bomb, or subsequent to it and thus in its shadow!
We are not attacking America we are merely claiming that the US film industry in its bid to sell films to the American market has ommited to mention the work of the Brit’s. Let your paranoid mind take that as you will.
My pets thread was heartfelt! and I even wrote you a limerick, if you want me to be nasty about your dog I will, I could ask why you had posted 34 messages in the time that you were “away” and your dog was dying but I wont because that is off-topic. Get over yourself, we are not out to get you!
Something else that is significant, is that this, like several other threads here, was created specifically for the purpose of citing American made films which are historically innacurate so that you British boys have something to biotch about.
It seems that whenever anyone disagrees with you, it is always an anti-american plot on our part. :roll: Would it be possible for us to have a discussion which does not involve you accusing us of being ‘out to get you’ constantly? None of the other Americans on this site seem to feel that America is being victimised here, so why do you?
As to Hollywood, perhaps its worth considering that the vast majority of films that are commercially shown in most of the world (except possibly India) are made in Hollywood, so you can hardly accuse us of deliberatly picking on Hollywood movies can you? How many non-American WWII films have been made since 1965? Not a lot!
Alex
The problem is not confined to American made films.
Witness A Bridge Too Far. British director. Huge British cast. Yet a story slanted slightly away from the “historically accurate” to appeal to the American market. Not a problem if you’re using fictional characters, but when real men are involved it’s not very fair or proper. Ah well, Richard Attenborough will always be the lesser of the brothers to me. 
It’s not a problem that is confined to American filmmakers, but sadly it seems prevalent when someone feels the need to over-Americanize elements of the film to appeal to the American market.
Perhaps I didn’t make myself totally clear; Ironman seemed to be saying that we were picking on American made films as part of a hate fuelled anti-American campaign…(personally, if I hated America, I’d be out making friends with blokes call Abdul, not on here!)
My point was that the vast majority of contemporary mainstream cinema is produced in the US, so it is a given that in any discussion about films, be they good, bad, or bollocks, 4/5 films discussed are going to be American, if not more. I have not trouble pointing out that there are inaccurate films produced in other countries, but personally, I don’t know any examples. (But then I can only think of about 10 non-Hollywood contemporary films I have seen, and none of those are WWII related.)
Just out of interest, what were the inaccuracies in “A Bridge too Far”, I haven’t seen it in a long long while!
I agree. But the comment that prompted my post did underestimate the value of it.
Not sure what you mean, but I like him. I think he’s brilliant.
It annoys me too.
I understand the bit about Hollywood. But then, it’s in the US. I suppose if there were a similarly large film industry in the UK or anywhere else, it would not highlight American films that much either. It’s unfortunate that it’s that way though. You are right, it should not be.
The Bridge on the River Kwai, good movie? Historically accurate? I heard it was pretty good. Its about British p.o.w. in thailand? Has anyone seen it? Details?