Are war crimes prosecutions just?

Interesting how Radovan Karadzic is suddenly found after years in hiding, just as Serbia is struggling to join the EU and trying to overcome EU concerns about its past. If that doesn’t work, no doubt Mladic will be offered up next, coming surprisingly to official notice after years in supposed hiding.

So one or both of them will go to trial, but the people who harboured them all these years, at all levels of government and society, won’t.

If only Karadzic and Mladic had had the sense to be involved in something much nastier than simple massacres, like Japan’s Unit 731 which engaged in war crimes and crimes against humanity of the worst kind, then after the war the vile bastards who ran it were protected by the Americans to get the advanced chemical and bacteriological knowledge the Americans thought they had, which they didn’t. There is a certain irony in one of the Unit 731 leaders going on to head a major pharmaceutical company in post-war Japan.

If only the political climate had changed for Karadzic, as it did after WWII when the West, primarily America, forgave all if you happened to be a sufficiently useful Nazi or Japanese who was rabidly anti-communist (which oddly enough was called fascism when the Axis powers did it but patriotism by the time McCarthy was scourging America for reds under the beds in what looked rather like a fascist crusade a few years after the war.). This allowed utter cunts like Tsuji Masanobu, who was largely responsible for some of the worst avoidable suffering, bestiality and murders preceding and during the Bataan Death March, to become a popularly elected politician in Japan seven years after the war ended (Thank you, Douglas MacArthur!), despite being a listed war criminal only a few years before he was elected.

Karadzic and Mladic probably are guilty of crimes against humanity, and war crimes if you want to classify that miserable episode as a war, as no doubt are many others on both sides who were more directly involved in criminal acts.

But if Bush can run the US which in accordance with his obsession about a war on terror runs a rendition program which kidnaps and tortures innocent people and has its most senior law officers pervert the meaning of torture to allow waterboarding and so on, not to mention illegally invading Iraq and events like Abu Ghraib, then why should Karadzic have to face trial for being involved in the killing of perhaps tens of thousands of people when Bush has thoroughly fucked Iraq and been responsible for many times more deaths than Karadzic, with no more legal or other justification? Perhaps less.

There is a great deal of selectivity in war crimes prosecutions, and in the manner in which defendants are discovered, which renders the whole process largely farcical and certainly unjust in any sense of parity of treatment of known offenders.

Not least because of the part that national politics plays in bringing offenders to what passes for justice, or protecting them from it.

The ‘woman’s thingie’ bit aside, well said, RS. We are, once again, in agreement, albeit not furiously. :slight_smile:

Perhaps, the prosecutions are just, but the selectivity is unust?

Took me ages to work out what the ‘woman’s thingie’ was. And I’m not referring to your post. :smiley:

Sorry.

I didn’t realise that an old soldier like you wouldn’t have heard that in barracks or in the field, what with the piano tinkling away as you all sipped your tea while singing ‘Onward Christian Soldiers’ or, on rare days of unbridled liberty, going to the cinema to listen to a gentle cinematic rendition of Men of Harlech. :wink: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrZbUS0MaY4&feature=related

Exactly.

I’m all in favour of hunting down and prosecuting offenders, but not if we’re just going to go after the nominal heads.

If I was being flogged by Guard X for no reason on the Burma Railway, I’d rather see him in the dock than the Japanese Minister for Railways.

‘Onward Christian Soldiers’
Always was my favourite.

Quite like this one also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gix8l5OWBws

I’m all in favour of hunting down and prosecuting offenders, but not if we’re just going to go after the nominal heads.

If I was being flogged by Guard X for no reason on the Burma Railway, I’d rather see him in the dock than the Japanese Minister for Railways.

Once again, I’m in agreement (something to do with it being Friday?) - Speedo! Speedo!!

You are agreeable, most days. :smiley:

Now, forget Speedo, 'cos they’re togs down here. (Swimming togs, not cricket whites etc.)

I prefer ‘Mushi Mush’.

Sometimes I use that to answer the phone.

It really throws the poor call centre operators in Delhi and Manila.

Especially when I continue with my novel form of Japanese, which can sound quite aggressive at times and seems to have my free trip to Ulan Bator withdrawn for no good reason.

Anyway, back to whatever it was that I started this thread with, I agree with myself. Largely, although there might be one or two points which deserve a challenge. :wink:

You know why.:slight_smile:
Serbs just a scapegoats for all crimes in Balckans, so what to hell ask the questions.
The political trial over Serbs is ordered by Washington , with close assistence of local european collaborationists.
But who is so powerful to order the political trial for George Bush?:wink:
May be China?Soon… Will see.
PS
Of course the “court for Karadzic” would have been as much political show as the previous “court of Miloshevich” who probably was killed becaurse this crazy serb-hatred witch Karla Del Ponte could n’t seek enough evidence to prove his participation in military crimes.
The one-side pseudo-justice. This is probably better that no justice at all although.

Since RS discovered Ann Summers on-line, the sheep are safe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YslUM8oZjCg&feature=related :slight_smile:

That’s very sweet of you, old man, but I’m spoken for. :smiley:

I expect it is if you’re one of the victims of whoever is being prosecuted.

I doubt it is if you’re the victim of someone who is being ignored or even protected, for political reasons.

‘Justice’ comes from ‘just’, which among its many meanings includes 1. fair and 2. morally correct.

Is one sided justice better than no justice at all? For example, is it better to punish the alleged enemies of the state while the leaders of a corrupt state and their henchmen go unpunished? Or, after the revolution (I’m speaking in general terms here of many revolutions, not the Russian Revolution) is it just for the former alleged enemies of the state to punish the state’s former leaders and his henchmen, while ignoring the crimes of the revolutionaries in overthrowing the last regime?

Unfortunately, justice in those situations is equivalent to holding power rather than flowing from the existence of a legal and court system independent of government which is what Western nations are lucky enough to have, to varying degrees. Then again, even in the land of liberty and constitutional guarantees, the US government picks the judges who really matter, as happens in other Western democracies. And regardless of which party is in control, they don’t pick judges who are opposed to them.

No skin off my nose, old sport, 'cos unless you’ve got a ‘woman’s thingie’ you don’t pass my threshhold test for being spoken to sweetly. :smiley:

No meat off my balls, old chum. But, life must be very frustrating for you! :slight_smile:

Yes, but we’re used to adversity down here. As one of our former prime ministers famously contributed to our language "Life wasn’t meant to be easy.’ Later, he had a bit of a public cry when conceding he’d lost an election.

Anyway, I’m envious that you have meat on your balls. Mine are just bulging veins over lean but raging love muscle, from all the passion exercise they get. :smiley:

Steroids, old chapp. All that steroid injected 'roo you’ve been eating. I’ve heard its effect can be contribute to vericose veins. :slight_smile:

Speaking of a ‘woman’s thingie’. I may not have one, but the ladies and gentlemen of the lower Falls would greet me, quite endearingly, by claiming I was a ‘British woman’s-thing’. They seemed to think I resemble one… jealousy I imagine. :smiley:

I didn’t realise you had a beard. :smiley:

Seriously, what did you discern as the attitude of the (whatever this means) ‘average’ Irish person towards British soldiers during that time?

It intrigued me at the time to see Tommies doing standard but loaded patrol drills through streets and gardens while the populace looked on in bemusement from windows and doorways and the street, but always with the risk that it could turn into a firefight or bombing any moment. Bastard of a position to be in when you’re geared up for contact but everything around you suggests a much more benign situation, with a lot of probably innocent spectators in the way.

Was it different in uniform and out of it - assuming you could go places in civvies?

It was intended to suggest a benign situation, but it wasn’t. I don’t want to get into telling stories, but if I remember correctly, the stats were that most soldier fatalities occured within the first couple of weeks of their tour, before they got to know the ‘what’s what’ and the last couple of weeks, when they were exhausted and began to switch off because it was almost time to go home. A lot of the local populace were afraid to acknowledge our presence in case of retaliatory punishment.

Some of the girls would totally blanks us in their neighbourhood, but when patrolling, say, Belfast city centre, they would be offering us tea, and some times even more exotic delights.

The hardcore women of some areas, were as hard as they come (even before the troubles), and if they got the chance they’d kill you, make no bones about it… which they did with the odd yound soldier here and there.

One story: I was chatting with a fella from 1 Para, his face was seriously scarred (no sweet talking him, he looked like Freddie Kruger). What happened was he was in hot persuit of some rioters, tripped and fell. A bunch of women suddenly jumped him before he could get up and screwed broken milk bottles into his face, all in a matter of a couple of seconds. He was lucky there were other Toms to rescue him or they’d have had his balls.

When on resident posting, i.e. long term tours, we were able to get out into the quieter areas around Lisburn and parts of County Down. That was fabulous. However, on four and six month tours we only had one four day pass to go home, the rest the time we were on permanent duty: 48 hours patrol; 48 hours guard duty; 48 standby and then back to patrolling. Guard duty was the easiest, 2 hours on, 4 hours off. Managed to have a shower and get some sleep. Sleep deprivation was a big problem, just felt constantly tired. But there was always the banter to keep our peckers up. :slight_smile:

I/m actually a victims, seruiosly.
I amd visctims of the Oligarsh who have robbed the population of russia in the beginning of the 1990-yy.
I/m the victims of whom start those “reforms” without taking into the consideration the population’s interests.
Today few of those oligarhs have escaped to Israel with thier stealed billions, hiding of justice.But most of them still in power, feel very well and lucky.The people who were responsible for demographic catastrophe in entire country - still out of justice.
This is a Great Injustice.

‘Justice’ comes from ‘just’, which among its many meanings includes 1. fair and 2. morally correct.

That suppose that the Judges are Moral.
But you know better me - this is not always true.
Even in Australia.
The corrupt is an international appearance.

Is one sided justice better than no justice at all? For example, is it better to punish the alleged enemies of the state while the leaders of a corrupt state and their henchmen go unpunished? Or, after the revolution (I’m speaking in general terms here of many revolutions, not the Russian Revolution) is it just for the former alleged enemies of the state to punish the state’s former leaders and his henchmen, while ignoring the crimes of the revolutionaries in overthrowing the last regime?

I don’t know for other revolution, but after 1920-yy in the Soviet Russia MOST of former “Revolutioners” have been execited.
This was great Justice IMO.
The same about French Revolution of 19 centure.Many revolutioners lost their loves during post-revolution Purge.
Of cource not everyone has got what he has deserved, but though…
So i have to say- revolution finaly, commits its justice.

Unfortunately, justice in those situations is equivalent to holding power rather than flowing from the existence of a legal and court system independent of government which is what Western nations are lucky enough to have, to varying degrees. Then again, even in the land of liberty and constitutional guarantees, the US government picks the judges who really matter, as happens in other Western democracies. And regardless of which party is in control, they don’t pick judges who are opposed to them.

So why nobody pick at George Bush on the land of liberty, if you’ve wrote he guilt in death of so many peoples ?
Is it sort of “people humor” in West when everybody can tell whtever he want about their leader with no realy sense and consequences for them?Only jut because it were not american lives?
What would have deserved G Bush with his deeds except the “George the Idiot” nickname?

Thanks for those personal insights. Rather you than me, mate. :neutral:

Although my natural sympathies are with the Paddies, I had a couple of friends here at that time who were rabid IRA (I recall some bitter disputes over an IRA ‘hit’ in Holland which killed a couple of innocent Aussies long after the serious Troubles - ?late eighties - mid-nineties?) as only those who are removed from the conflict can be.

Seemed to me that it’s often the people who aren’t there and were never there who can see what’s happening there with the clearest eyes, and the least knowledge.

Were you stuck in forts all the time during a tour? I recall seeing a television program which had soldiers locked up behind bollards and steel walls and anti-mortar mesh all the time, when they weren’t on patrol.

I realise that Tommies were hurt and killed in civilian pubs and elsewhere, but if you got leave locally did you dare to venture into local pubs or whatever? Or did you just not get leave?

What I’m getting at is, like most wars, was there any scope for passable relations with the local community, as often happened in France under rather worse conditions despite post-war French denials that - sacrebleu- such a thing could ever happen.

In the hard areas, it was out and out hostily. There wasn’t any leave for four and six months tours other than the weekend I mentioned. It was just continuous duty, as described.

All the bases were protected as ‘forts’ - had to be.

No, unless youre’ there, you don’t have a clearer eye and, therefore, a clearer perspective. There is so much hostility between the two communities, it’s indescribable, and there is so much that happens there that doesn’t make the news, you wouldn’t believe it. All I’m seeing and hearing here, is a lack of insight.

Away from the hard areas, the people of either community were as warm and welcoming as people can be anywhere in the world.

As far as the civil rights movement was concerned, I too was on the side of the Micks - I think most soldiers were, but we didn’t discuss it that much, it wouldn’t have been healthy. We jsut got on with it.

I could even accept the IRA taking on military targets, but having witnessed, first-hand, the results of the indiscriinate killings, fo which there were many - forget it.