Battle of Stalingrad

World War II Russian Military
#41

Well, let’s be thankful for that. Who knows how the Sowjet Union would have gone on if Stalin had a successor of his own blood, though I don’t know what his son’s views were.

And talking about Stalingrad: Wouldn’t it have been a lot easier to just make a defensive perimeter around the city right away, and block it from the outside instead of marching in and getting killed by snipers,etc.

In the end, though, the Red Army’s average soldier might not have been as experienced or skilled as a German one (pure assumption of historians, everybody is an individual and should be treated as such), but the superior number would have broken the Wehrmacht’s back sooner or later, I’m quite positive about that.

I can imagine very few scenarios through which the Axis would have been able to achieve a knockout victory against Soviet Russia, and even then they would still have had to face the Allied armies in the West and South.

#42

The key of winning the Eastern campaign was for quick capture of at least 1 or 2 major Russian cities , it’s believed that this would impact a major blow to the morale of the russians (though that is not sure of course ) . One more thing the numbers don’t always mean a victory , the superior tactician is that who win , Zuhkov and the some other few generals left were simply at the right time at the right place doing the right strategy , while the german generals were with tied hands from Hitler whom strategy was more like for the middle ages rather than for the such of 20 century mobile war . Wasting whole army in ruin city is always a huge blow mainly to the morale of your own troops as well as it opens a huge gap .

#43

Very true, especially since the Russians had to draw a lot of their soldiers from rural areas, often poorly educated. This was probably the reason for the “the Russian soldier is dumb and can’t write” stereotype.
In reality, though, the common soldier’s lack of experience was the reason the German army was able to defeat them at the beginning, but once enough soldiers lived enough to become experienced, and the commanders learned how to best use them, Germany’s chances sank a lot.
The only way I can see Germany winning is, as you said, capturing major cities early on, but staying on the move, not giving the Red Army time to train soldiers. Time would have been of the essence, because as soon as the Army had time to draft recruits and train them properly, things would have been extremely hard, even if they were able to capture some cities.
But as long as Hitler was in command, this would have never happened. There’s a reason Generals don’t grow on trees and why common soldiers don’t command. Hitler didn’t realize that and the German people and their allies paid dearly for it, from a purely militarily perspective.

#44

I think it’s pretty weird that the Germans would want to trade field marchall Paulus. I’v read that he got promoted when it was allready certain the battle was lost, because Hitler wanted him to kill himself. If Paulus would surrender it would be the first time a field marchall has surrendered to the enemy. Why would they later want to trade him back?

#45

To make an example of him and execute him?

#46

Perhaps one of the main reasons behind the German failure at Stalingrad was that Stalingrad was never planned as the major objective. In fact the capture of Stalingrad as planned in Operation Blau was by a huge encircling manouvre north and south of the city, whilst the main objective was always the oilfields.

Conversly there are other matters to consider as to why Germany failed at Stalingrad and it’s best to remember that Operation Blau was an offensive as big and complex as Operation Barbarossa with less resources at the German’s disposal.

#47

Quite right to say that , actually you show us another mistake - shifting the major power of the offensive in a town ( which even if taken won’t resolve much of the problem as the oil fields will be free ) - a battle which was more for prestige and showing power to the enemy rather than a huge strategic target . Even if we imagine that the german forces were in Stalingrad and fully occupied it ( of course by the end of the fight it would be hard to say that this was city anymore rather a ground filled with ruins ) the oil in Baku will be still intact and working and i suspect the soviets will be still using it mainly with transport trough the Kaspian sea maybe instad of transit trough Stalingrad .

#48

being in the military…still dont understand.and there where no ss soliders at stalingrad…why didnt…the germans break out…when operation winter…general manstein…tried to rescue 6th army…why didnt soliders in near stailgrad…didnt brekout…they knew there fate in russian prison war camps…they have fought the russians for year and half…

#49

Basically because they were ordered not to do so. Furthermore the german frontlines were already pushed back a couple of hundred miles. A -more or less- uncoordinated breakout attempt would have ended somewhere in the snowy steppe.

BTW,

#50

way to go, FTG!

#51

Quite right to say that , actually you show us another mistake - shifting the major power of the offensive in a town ( which even if taken won’t resolve much of the problem as the oil fields will be free ) - a battle which was more for prestige and showing power to the enemy rather than a huge strategic target . Even if we imagine that the german forces were in Stalingrad and fully occupied it ( of course by the end of the fight it would be hard to say that this was city anymore rather a ground filled with ruins ) the oil in Baku will be still intact and working and i suspect the soviets will be still using it mainly with transport trough the Kaspian sea maybe instad of transit trough Stalingrad

The core problems of Stalingrad lay in the Fall Blau directive. The initial march to Stalingrad was viewed as being a rather simple scenario by the Germans. In fact, at one point, Hitler was so sure the city would be taken without a fight that he redirected mobile units down to the South via Rostov to support the drive to Baku (which caused huge traffic jam problems). The Russians were initially ready to give up the city (they didn’t see it as that big a deal at first) but decided to reinforce once the Germans began tripping over themselves in the advance to it.

The winter didn’t actually play a big part in Stalingrad. The Germans had learned their lesson in 1941 and were prepared for it this time.

Hitler was the biggest problem the Wehmacht faced. Going back to Blau, the plan was ridiculous to start with. The drive into the Caucasus was envisaged as an easier “part two” of the campaign. There would be little need of flank security (and there were a LOT of open flanks during the drive south but the fact that the main battlefield was in the city kept either side from reinforcing enough to take advantage of it) because the Russian would be defeated beforehand. Hitler was convinced the Russians had “shot their load” in the Kharkov offensive (which failed miserably) and was further convinced of that when Stalin and Zhukov ordered the units in the South to simply fall back instead of contest the German attack after Blau began. The Germans weren’t bagging large numbers of Soviets so they didn’t think there were large numbers left to “bag”. Also, the Russians didn’t reinforce right away because they still thought the main blow would come against Moscow. They believed that the attack in the South was either a feint or the Germans would advance on Moscow from the Voronezh area.

Once the Germans were in Stalingrad, they were stuck. They did almost take the entire city but it was a phyrric victory of sorts and a complete waste of resources. But the hedgehog that formed there after the Soviets encircled the city kept the Soviet armies from advancing to cut off the German troops in the Caucasus.

Overall, the entire concept of Fall Blau was self-defeating from the start. It did not have the potential to cripple the Russian army (as has been pointed out, the Russians could have rerouted the oil they produced) nor would the oil fields aid the German army (at least in the short run). It stretched the Germans beyond their supply capacity and forced them to rely on poorly equipped Romanian and Italian armies to cover their flanks. It was a FUBAR from the start! Of course, hindsight is 20/20… :wink:

#52

flamethrower guy…this is sam davis…and you are totally right uncoordinated would have led to death but to have marched in more or less no winter wear…rags…and to be kept imprisoned till 1955…at one point i read that when general manstein in his attempt…to save 6th army…through testimony…that some of the soilders…could see…the flares…of manteins army…that would have been the time to breakout…also…at that point they where about 40 miles away…thanks

#53

The entire problem that actualy was mentioned by historians that i’ve read- it was that in Stalingrad German Wermachs lost their operational and tatical advantage over Red Army.
In fact the close city battle, fight for every next house down to street , frost and lack of food made the German army to waste their resources in vain.
In fact the Red Army soldiers did have the superiority in close partisan tactic, fighting with well equiped, but poorly managed nad manevreable ( in literal sense) due to frost German army.
BTW the gernaral Vasiliy Chuikov- famouse commander of Defence of Stalingrad has succesfully aplied their experience of urban combat later, during battle do Berlin and Koenigsberg .

#54

Also, I was wondering how wide-spread the PPsh sub-machine gun was during Stalingrad? I know that many Germans were still using their Mausers, and a Bolt-Action rifle is obviously pretty unhandy in Close Quarters…

#55

Well i think there was even german soldiers who used PPsh instead of MP-40 or Mauser during the battle which i think speak well about it’s qualities .Even in the german film "stalingrad " (1993) there is such scene in it .:wink:

#56

And there were Red Army soldiers that used the MP-40, entire squads or platoons of them apparently…

#57

The Red Army used the booty MP-40 very often, but not when the frost reaches the -30 C.
I 've read , the first time the German rifle and mashin-guns didn’t “wish to work” :slight_smile: was in december of 1941 during the battle of Moscow.

#58

all i have to say is… VASSILLI ZAITSEV!!!

#59

Your signature “pyle, what is your major malfunction, son???” is remarkably apt.

#60

Just like the place whre is he from:D
Stalag 13