I know it’s hard to say what one would do in a similar circumstance, but why do Westerners cave so easily to their Muslim captors? Here we have that British female sailor wearing a Muslim headscarf. Why does she submit to that indignity? She is a Western woman, probably of the Christian faith, yet she submits like this. For once i’d like to see our comrades in arms spit in the face of their captors and just tell them to stuff it!
Well im sure that these sailors were instructed on how to behave if captured. Plus im sure they could find some less suitable condidtions to place her in for acting up.
During her interview where she confesses to being in Iranian waters she is smoking. Now I dont know the girl but maybe its a sign to those who know here thats she is lying. Or maybe she is just a smoker.
Anynote might as well get comfortable coz looks like they are going to be there for awhile longer.
I couldn’t agree more!
I’d also like to have seen Jews on the edge of a pit in Europe turn and wrench the pistol from their intended murderer and shoot him in the face; Allied prisoners turn and wrench the sword from a Jap about to decapitate them and shove it into his belly; and American prisoners in the Hanoi Hilton storm their captors and kill them on the way home to the US.
But reality prevents any of this.
The Brits are probably following Code of Conduct training, which deals with their delicate situation as detainees of another nation rather than POW’s.
Published (and why this is published to inform the enemy is beyond me!) US Code of Conduct rules, which I expect are similar to the Brits’ in this situation pretty much leave it to the poor bastards in the situation to work out what they’re supposed to do when there are few rules and no protections beyond those of the detaining nation.
E3.10.1. U.S. military personnel must be aware that the basic protections available to prisoners of war under Article 3 of reference (g) may not be required during operations other than war. It is essential that U.S. military personnel understand that the provisions of the Geneva Conventions affording prisoner of war protections apply only during declared war or international armed conflict. In conflicts not of an international character, the combatants are required to apply only the minimum protections of Article 3 of reference (g).
As a result, U.S. military personnel detained by a hostile force during Military Operations Other Than War (MOOTW) may be subject to the domestic criminal laws of the detaining nation. For example, if a U.S. pilot, shot down during a MOOTW, kills a civilian to avoid detection by a hostile force, that pilot may be denied the protections of the Geneva Convention and tried under the criminal laws of the detaining nation. In addition to the Geneva Conventions, there may also be a Status of Forces agreement or some other binding agreement that provides certain parameters for the duties of the detaining government. Detainees should attempt to maintain military bearing, if possible, and should avoid aggressive or combative behavior that would violate the criminal or civil laws of the subject country. Detainees should not forget, however, that they have an inherent right of self-defense. Lost, isolated or captive Service members must be prepared to assess the dangers associated with being taken into captivity by local authorities. Their assessment of the dangers should dictate what efforts should be taken and what measure of force may be required to avoid capture, resist
apprehension, and resist cooperation once captured.
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130021p.pdf
If she spat in the faces of her captors, would they publish video of it to the world?
As for the captured woman wearing the headscarf, that doesn’t tell me anything about her. It tells me all I need to know about the arseholes who captured her and who parade her in a form of dress acceptable to their standards. It also tells me all I need to know about what the rest of the world can expect if these arseholes get their hands on nuclear weapons, when they’re not trying to appear nice and cuddly by getting her to look happy with a scarf on her head rather than in her proper uniform.
But after typing the above, I’ve just seen a news broadcast with the woman and a couple of other blokes captured with her all smiling and having drinks and generally looking pretty happy. There is a distinct lack of military bearing; national pride; and contempt for the enemy in their conduct, regardless of the difficult circumstances in which they find themselves. But they’re there, and I’m not, so it’s not for me to judge their actions. Although I just have.
I believe that the only incident of recent times of where a westerner blew off his muslim captors was the Italian captive who refused to submit in any way before his head was cut off. Now that’s guts. He probably refused to abandon his faith also, which probably enraged his captors even more. This was unlike those two American reporters who “converted” to Isalm in order to win release.
Guts is good, but having your head chopped off to prove you’ve got guts isn’t.
Better to survive and find or finger the bastards who kidnapped you and deal with them.
For once i’d like to see our comrades in arms spit in the face of their captors and just tell them to stuff it!
While I don’t doubt the you two are the hardest people in the world from you comfy chairs and computers, think about what you are saying.
She, and the other 15 want to get away from the situation they are in. If they wind up and antagonise their captors, they risk some Iranian guard putting a bullet in their head for spite. Regardless of what happens to him afterwards. At the very least they may take a kicking.
They WILL be very scared, I know I would be, not neccesarily for themselves but for others, like their loved ones. And so would you be.
They are powerless, spitting at or punching or anything else is futile. They power is to the guards. They have to wait, bide their time and be realeased or possibly escape.
The whole world knows that they are not saying what they really feel. People are for than able to read that they are saying pre planned lines and the letters are not written by them.
If I’m included in ‘you two are the hardest people in the world from you comfy chairs and computers’, I’d suggest your read my posts again.
If I’m included in that group, I’d suggest that you also look at the conduct of, say, the US POW’s who held out in Hanoi for years under far, far, far, far, worse conditions than the Brits in Iran appear to have done within a few hours of capture. Or countless Allied, and for that matter Axis, prisoners who held out under much worse treatment and for much, much longer during WWII.
If you think that it’s acceptable conduct to parade yourself within a few hours of capture as living the life of Riley and happily enjoying the comforts provided by the enemy, then you and I have very different ideas of what is required by code of conduct principles. We also have very different ideas of what is required to win a war.
If you really think that the Iranians would put a bullet in the head of the woman who is their biggest trophy in their swag of trophy prisoners, or that she and those prisoners would believe it if they were properly trained in the code of conduct which should have applied to their operations, then you reflect the gross deficiencies in the training of these people which has led them to behave as they appear to have done on the published videos. Which might not be what really happened.
Rising sun, it was only aimed at Lacona.
I don’t know why i put you two. I had read all posts up to your first post on this thread. I was probably teaming you up with Gen. Sandworm.
Other than that my post stands as it does.
It is very easy to say what you would LIKE to do, in such a cirumstance. In reality you would be as scared as they are.
I have a tendency to call up interesting threads and then leave them, for a bit, whilst I concentrate on work. I answer them all in due course. But I missed everything after your first post.
Here we have that British female sailor wearing a Muslim headscarf
Just imagine what would happen if CNN show a an Iranian female women captured by the british wearing a mini-skirt:rolleyes:
For once i’d like to see our comrades in arms spit in the face of their captors and just tell them to stuff it!
Seems the right attitude in Rambo III but maybe isnt so in real life.
It the time to blow something is Iran perhaps?
If so, this poor soldiers will be used as human shields i have no doubt.
Couple of points to clear up.
British forces do not give resistance to interrogation (RtoI) training to all personnel. It is only given to those prone to capture. This means aircrew, primarily front line crew, navy personnel who are or may act close to enemy, again flight crew, SBS, mountain warfare carder and some other RMs, and SF.
As for holding out, a very good friend of mine spent his last 6 years in the forces as part of and then running RtoI courses. They were/are the NATO centre of excellence. They could break most of the air crews within 24 hours, the only ones they never got to talk were SF as this would automatically fail them for selection.
Be careful what you say, you have not gone through it.
These hostages did not expect to be kidnapped and taken to a foreign country. What has been mention by the Iranians but not picked up by most is that due to custom the Iranians have segregated Ldg Smn Turney from the rest. She is on her own without support from her mats. She is very vulnerable. This can be seen from the first video of her. These hostages may have seen and probably would have heard about the other navy personnel who were kidnapped 2 or 3 years ago. They went through mock shootings and general psychological attacks before being released. The Iranians have been holding demos calling for these hostages to be tied and shot, if this has been done within sight of them then it will have an affect on them.
The film of them eating may be the first time since they were kidnapped that they have been together, it may be the first decent meal they have had in days. There is a bit in Bravo 2 Zero where he explains that a US aircrew keeps shouting abuse at the guards, the guards come in and give the first prisoner they come to a good kicking, which is never him. It is not clever antagonising you jailors, you are the one who will suffer. Brit training in this is to keep your head down and do as you are told.
[SIZE=“4”]What you should be doing is screaming and shouting at your respective media about how Iran has kidnapped and held hostage service personnel on UN duty.[/SIZE]
it may be the first decent meal
I wouldnt call iranian food “decent”.
What you should be doing is screaming and shouting at your respective media about how Iran has kidnapped and held hostage service personnel on UN duty.
Totally agree, this iranian blokes think they could do as they want everytime they want.
Have you ever had persian food…??? Its actually quite good. Dont believe all the hype…the Iranian govt might be crazy… but most Iranians are very cool ppl and make kick ass food.
Perhaps, no ham however.
I was probably making comparatives with the food of my country, my sister always told my that I am a “etnocentric”.
There is a lot of lebanese descendanst around here and I did try some meatpies, chesse and others, not sure if it had any relationship with iranian alimentation.
Fair enough! 
Sorry I came on a bit strong.:oops:
I agree with what you and everyone else say in support of the difficult and unknown circumstances the captives find themselves in, and I agree that they’re entitled to do anything within reason to preserve themselves as anyone with half a brain knows that they’re being coerced. Nonetheless, I was highly unimpressed with the bit of newsfilm I mentioned at the end of my earlier post where two blokes and the woman all seemed very happy. Unfortunately I can’t find it on the internet so that everyone knows what I’m talking about.
Regardless of circumstances, captives shouldn’t look like they’re enjoying themselves as it gives the enemy a great propaganda opportunity, on top of the propaganda opportunity Iran has already manufactured in this case to influence international opinion, and quite successfully in some quarters as exemplified by this letter today to one of the two most influential newspapers in Australia:
Two types of detention
WE’VE seen on TV how the Iranians are treating the Britons they seized. Just for comparison it would be interesting to see how the Americans are treating the Iranians they seized in their military raid on that country’s consulate in Arbil in January. What do you reckon … orange overalls, chains, isolation, heat and cold and continuous lighting and loud music until they “confess” they are helping the “terrorists”?
Gordon Drennan, Burton, SA
http://www.theage.com.au/letters/index.html?page=3
I don’t dispute that America has been guilty of appalling and rampantly criminal behavior in Iraq and elsewhere, such as with rendition and torture, but it’s a bit rich to hold Iran out as the good guys in comparison with America in this case when Iran has engaged in State kidnapping for as yet publicly unknown reasons. No doubt the British captives were taken purely as a bargaining chip for something, probably to do with recovering the Iranian captives taken at Arbil http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2393336.ece or perhaps to do with Iran’s nuclear ambitions, or both.
I presume letter writers of this ilk will in due course compare the compassionate and environmentally friendly nature of Iranian nukes with the brutal and dirty American ones when the Holocaust-denying nutcase running Iran finally nukes whoever it is in the whole rest of the world that the current Iranian government is against, which in order seems to be Israel, Sunnis, the West, then everybody else. Or maybe it’s Sunnis, Israel etc.
More info on todays news.
TONY Blair expressed his “disgust” after a second captured sailor was paraded on Iranian television.
A angry PM said Iran “parading and manipulation” of serviceman Nathan Thomas Summers today was “fooling no one”.
The Iranian Embassy appeared to counter Blair’s message by releasing a third letter purportedly written by British sailor Faye Turney.
It said she has been “sacrificed to the policies of the British and U.S. governments”.
The letter, addressed to the British people, also said that Turney had been treated well, unlike the prisoners held at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
“I’m writing to you as a British serviceperson who has been sent to Iraq, sacrificed due to the intervening policies of the Bush and Blair government,” the letter said.
Mr Blair added the release of the detainees was the only “possible solution” to the crisis.
This morning Iranian television screened footage of sailor Nathan saying that the British party had “trespassed” into Iranian waters when they were seized last Friday.
But the videotape showed clear signs of editing, suggesting that his words were being manipulated.
The broadcast of the footage on the Arabic-speaking al Alam news network was angrily denounced by the Foreign Office.
“Using our military personnel for purposes of propaganda like this is outrageous,” a spokesman said.In one extract, Mr Summers is shown saying: “I would like to apologise for entering your waters without any permission.”
However there is a clear edit after the word “apologise”, suggesting that the extract was spliced together from two separate clips.
The Foreign Office angrily condemned the broadcast of the latest pictures.
“Using our military personnel for purposes of propaganda like this is outrageous,” a spokesman said.
Mr Summers continued: “I know that happened back in 2004. Our Government promised that it would not happen again. Again I deeply apologise for entering your waters.”His comment referred to the incident when the Iranians seized eight Royal Marines and Royal Navy sailors in the Shatt al Arab waterway which divides Iran and Iraq.
In other clips, he said “We trespassed without permission”, before going on to say that their treatment by the Iranians had been “very friendly” and that he was “grateful” that no harm had come to them.
He is also shown sitting alongside Leading Seaman Faye Turney - the one woman in the party - and another unnamed British Serviceman.
Iranian television has already shown a similar interview with Leading Seaman Turney, as well has two letters she was said to have written to her family and to a “representative of the House of Commons”.
Nathan Summers’ brother Nick today told him: “Just hang in there”, adding he was glad to see him alive and well.
Nick said his brother appeared to be acting as he would normally and being treated fairly and was not distressed.
Nick, who is also in the Navy, described his brother as a “fairly laid-back guy” who enjoyed his job.
The latest footage of Mr Summers is likely to heighten concerns among British officials that they were acting under some form of duress.
Britain is adamant that the party were in Iraqi territorial waters when they were captured by Iranian Revolutionary Guard patrol boats and is demanding their “unconditional” release
Would the captives in this case be likely to have received that training?
I guess you missed my opening sentence that said:" I know it’s hard to say what one would do…". You are absolutely right, I would be scared as all hell. I was just trying to get a little conversation going about why we westerners as a whole seem to cave so quickly when things happen like this. I remember after 911 that people here in America were calling the terrerists cowards for what they did. Fanatical? Yes! Ingenious? Yes! Cowards? I don’t think so. And no, I never did see any combat, but I did serve in the USAF as an enlisted aircrewman. If war had broken out while I was on active duty, I would have done my best.
Don’t take this personnal.
look at the conduct of, say, the US POW’s who held out in Hanoi for years under far, far, far, far, worse conditions than the Brits in Iran appear to have done within a few hours of capture. Or countless Allied, and for that matter Axis, prisoners who held out under much worse treatment and for much, much longer during WWII.
Means nothing, now adays torture is much more refined than it was. You beat me up and I will toughen up, and my resolve will be high (believe it or not). You treat me well, but at the same time drop hints how you know where my family are, who my family are (thanks to all this media frenzy) and other info, and by way of this you are hinting that they may be in danger.
If you think that it’s acceptable conduct to parade yourself within a few hours of capture as living the life of Riley and happily enjoying the comforts provided by the enemy, then you and I have very different ideas of what is required by code of conduct principles. We also have very different ideas of what is required to win a war.
This sort of thing was never envisages, even a short time ago as the vietnam war. It came about only around what the early 90s for service men. I think some photos may have been used in WW2, but ona limited scale.
They are not enjoying the life of Riley. Regardless of how happy they look. The mere fact that one has been forced to cover up her hair, belays how happy they are and that their life is not that of Riley. It is not as if the Iranians are saying “do you mind if you appear in a film?”, “you would like to? Splendid” is it?
By the fact they don’t appear to be talking from the heart, our guys can set up a press conference to deflect what they say.
This is still a battle, just not one fought with guns.
If you really think that the Iranians would put a bullet in the head of the woman who is their biggest trophy in their swag of trophy prisoners, or that she and those prisoners would believe it if they were properly trained in the code of conduct which should have applied to their operations, then you reflect the gross deficiencies in the training of these people which has led them to behave as they appear to have done on the published videos. Which might not be what really happened.
Off hand, I can’t tell you what training they have or have not received. I can tell you however that soldiers who have definitily had the training. ie SF and Air Crew have been similarly paraded. I would guess however that it would be similar ot that of other Navys, including the US and Australians, particularly the Ausies.
I would point out to all on this thread that this is merely one more battle. It is by no means over, and could despite what is said on here get messy.
The Iranians are trying to show the world how tough they are, they may very well believe that the only way for this to happen is to kill the hosages, maybe not in a pique of rage, but may after a farce trial, the first steps of which have been put in motion.
Torture no longer arrives in the form of a fist, but in ever more delicate and subtle forms, that often carry a far worse conseqence.
I remember a guys avatar of another site I am on. It goes something like…
“I am in Psychological Warfare, because psychological wounds don’t heal”.
I am sure that there are some in the 15, that would give out more than a fair beating in a fair fight, but they are not in that situation. The captors hold all of the cards wrt to teh captives, they are playing dumb and going along, the nail that stands proud gets hammered.
The guys on the outside will get them free, by force or by talk, if they can stay alive.
Unless i missed something the UK is not at war with Iran. Not sure how it is in the UK but in the US when your at war and your captured you are supposed to keep doing your job. Say nothing, try to escape, sabotage…bascially anything that will piss the enemy off.
In this current situation you are supposed to sit tight and wait for the politicians to sort things out. We dont need the British version of Rambo…lets call him Chappo… running around and starting a war.
maybe they should learn from the jews during ww2. i watch a documentary video from BBC about a year ago. The prisoners somehow sneak into the dressing room of the officers and steal their uniforms. they disguise as officers and leave the concentration camp.