Could Britain have gone it alone against the axis in europe?

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#1

This is my first posting ever on a forum so forgive me if it sounds a bit wierd or dull…

A massive debate has erupted in my war studies lecture over whether britain could have won the war without american intervention. I say yes. In my view, the second world war was a truly revoloutionary war in that, an MLR was not established and campaigns were fought around flashpoints of aggression rather than standard lines. (although i admit in the later years of the ETO this did happen ie: battle of the bulge) however, with systematic victories at each flashpoint ( ATO, MTO, PTO) fortress europe would have fallen without the need for the american landings in Normandy and south france. Although i am not discounting the part they or any other of our allies played, in fact, russia was instrumental in the downfall of germany, i think that if britain had made a landing of their expeditionary force in a minor province of europe, say, greece and linked up with their allies on the eastern front, that would have been viable.

…opinions?

#2

No, we didn’t have the resources to build the tanks, weapons etc needed. Where as the U.S. was almost self-sufficent when it came to iron, coal etc.

#3

As above. Without US aid, no chance of defeating the Nazis. Any idea of what the terraine in Greece is like for starters?

#4

No chance IMO. However I dont think the US would have been very effective against the Nazi if Britain had fallen. Your not going to launch a Normandy like invasion from the US. Even if you did the Logistics would be a complete nightmare and failure with the swarms of German U-boots.

One of the dumbest things Hitler did in losing the war was declaring war on the US. However I can see somewhere thru the madness and why it might have made sense at the time. He would have been better off making sure that the Japanese would attack Russia if he declared war on the US. Thankfully Hitler was a retard and no idea of the output the US could produce.

#5

Plus cash. Without massive US aid, the UK would have either had to cut back massively on war production (and thus at best be limited to holding the channel) or go bankrupt. We were within something like a month of going bankrupt when Lend-Lease was passed anyway…

#6

Thats a good point there about Japan declaring war on the USSR. Most of the US lend lease to the Soviets went through the Russian far East ports in US ships that were re-registered as Soviet and thus the Japanese let them through. It may have made a diffrence if Japan had declared war on the USSR, though I dont think it would have helped them much if at all.

#7

Thats a good point there about Japan declaring war on the USSR. Most of the US lend lease to the Soviets went through the Russian far East ports in US ships that were re-registered as Soviet and thus the Japanese let them through. It may have made a diffrence if Japan had declared war on the USSR, though I dont think it would have helped them much if at all.[/quote]

No it probably wouldnt have helped Japan. But sure as hell would have helped Germany. Then Stalin wouldnt have been able to send all those extra troops to the Soviet western front.

#8

The US would have clearly have continued with the Manhattan project in such a case (being even more paranoid than they were already about the Germans). They would also IMHO have pushed forward the production of the B-36 rather than the B-17/B-29. The B-36 is a nuclear capable bomber which could hit Berlin from the Eastern US with a pretty substantial bomb load, and was effectively uninterceptable until the mid-1950s.
On another board I visit, a piece of alt-hist fiction has been written around this very scenario (Lord Halifax succeeds in a coup in June 1940 and declares an armistice, with the UK later being occupied). The end result for Germany (and incidentally the world) is not pretty at all.
Story index for The Big One.

#9

I would suggest you all read the Big One, I have already and its a really great ‘what if’.

#10

It’s also a rather good course in the effects of nuclear weapons and the like, woven into the story to make it easy to understand. Stuart worked for several years under Herman Kahn targeteering nuclear weapons for the US government, and so far as he knows TBO is the first properl (and hence accurately) targeteered nuclear strike in fiction.

#11

During the Cold War I did something very similar, oh the fun we had appointing targets and weapons.

#12

Britain would probably have survived, though without the capability of mounting anything more than raids on occupied Europe.

Without lend lease, it is also debatable whether Russia would have held or not. If no, it’s a German win and either stalemate or armistice with the UK, if yes, then probably a completely Soviet-dominated Western Europe – not a pleasant thought.

#13

Britain could have allied with Hitler, Hitler tried a few times to get us to ally with them.

#14

Not with Churchill as Prime Minister

#15

SS Tiger wrote:

Britain could have allied with Hitler, Hitler tried a few times to get us to ally with them.

Hitler did indeed make several attempts to get the British on side. However I think there was more chance of a “pigs only” runway being installed at Heathrow, than Britain in anyway brokering a peace deal with such people as the Nazis.

#16

Welcome Staffs Pathfinders to the forum.

Yes, Hitler did try several times to make peace with the UK, but Churchill said then he must move out of the occupied countries and maybe then they would talk about it. I muast say that Churchill was a great man and I respect him very much for the person he was, a real great man.

The UK would never have made it without the help of the US and I muast agree that the US would have been in a very tight possition if Hitler overpowerd the UK. Japenese on the one side of the world and German on the other sied of the world.

Henk

#17

Every military decision had Hitler’s fingers in it. IF he had want to, IF he had turned the full force of Germany against GB with no other distractions, it would have been so.

#18

Again you are looking at tanks, plans and bombs, none of which really matter in the wider picture. Without the support of the US the UK would have staved, industry would have ground to a halt as well as shipping both RN as well as MM (lack of oil most were coal but not all). The Empire would have done what it could but it still would have had to come across the Atlantic. Every ship sunk and not replaced would have tightened the screw. No oil = no tanks, no plans, and no industry. We would have been back to the horse and cart

#19

I’m not sure we would have lost the war though, just not won it. I think that the UK would still have defeated the U-Boat threat unless the Germans had put a lot more resources into the Atlantic battle.

I’m just not convinced that we could have paid for it all.

Its a big what if though!

#20

right…ok, i kno that without the ‘arsenal of democracy’ or the lend lease acts, basically, the whole of europe would have succumbed to hitler, but tactically, the good old yanks didnt do that much, they landed in algiers too late to make a difference in the fighting, established beacheads at normandy and broke the bulge offensive but can they really be credited for winning the war for us?