I was looking at a Cabelas catalog when I noticed rubber buckshot, so I went to Fiocchi and saw both rubber buckshot and rubber slugs. The buckshot has an fps of 790, and the slug has 740. I would just want to knock the guy down, not kill him, so that’s why I thought ofrubber shot. I have 2 shotguns capable of firing these rounds, but at a range of 0-40 feet, which would be best?
I have a box of rubber ‘multi ball’ 12 bore rds, they’re described as limited lethality !
Out at forty feet they’d probably sting like a bastard, and if they hit an eye I’m sure the tgt would be blinded.
At closer ranges I feel that their lethality might not be so limited, hence the description.
I am of the opinion that if a situation has decended to a level where the use of firearms has become necessary, then a continued attempt to go down the ‘fluffy route’ may result in the injury or death of those who were being defended. (ie you and/or your loved ones.)
I sincerely hope that you are never put in that position, but should it occur it is important you are prepared. I would suggest a course at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch or another training establishment with similarly high credentials.
While reading is not a substitute for realistic trg or experience, it can provide useful suggestions that may augment trg.
Try ‘Stressfire’ and ‘Stressfire II’ by Massad Ayoob and any number of writings by Col. Jeff Cooper.
Well, I work in the ghetto, so a high-danger situation is pretty much every situation. Our office is 5 feet from the front door (garage door, mechanic facilities) so that’s where the gun is kept. So at the range of point blank to probably maximum of 15 or 20 feet, I have no doubt these shells have some lethal potential, but that is not my goal. My goal is to knock the intruder to the ground and unconscious, but I have to be able to do it at range, as everyone here has a gun. I want to be able to havethe police arrest the guy and lock him up, I don’t want to kill him, but I also want to have a personal defense, and that at close range these can be lethal.
Assuming that you have a semi-auto or pump shotgun and you want to go down this route, load the tube so that the first one or two cartridges are these rubber things, and load the rest with 00 buck.
This means that if the guy’s on drugs or hyped & doesn’t go down with the “limited lethality” projectiles, you’ve got some proper projectiles ready to go downrange. This is one great advantage of the shotgun.
Another “limited lethality” option is birdshot, and is deeply unpleasant for the scrote you have to use it on.
There was a detailed discussion about this in the tactical and self defence shotgun forum at www.shotgunworld.com .
The general feeling there seemed to be that you might run into more legal trouble if you used these sorts of rounds than if you shot someone, something along the lines of “If you used less-than-lethal ammunition to shoot someone, then you can’t have believed your life was in danger, so you weren’t justified in shooting them”. I know that doesn’t make a lot of sense (except maybe to lawyers) but the threads are probably worth a look, especially as it is a US based site with more US contributors than here.
Personally, I wouldn’t go down the ‘less than lethal’ route. These projectiles are designed for use by the police, who have extensive training and back up, and often the luxury of more time to assess a situation. These rounds are not designed to incapacitate someone for minutes at a time as I understand it, but to disperse crowds or give officers time to handcuff a suspect. Once you have incapacitated your assailaint, do you have the skills to restrain and cuff him? What if there are more than one assailant, can you disable, cuff and restrain them all one after the other?
I would just load up with buckshot. If you really believe you need a gun to defend yourself then you need a gun with real ammo in it, not rubber balls. If you don’t think you need a gun, then get a CS spray or a tyre iron. Trying to find a halfway house will only end in tears imho. Face up to reality, get on a training course or two, and you should be fine.
If you are tempted by MOS’ route with both types of ammo, just think about what will happen if you don’t have time to shoot off the first two rounds of soft-shot and then some buckshot before the guy gets to you? It can be hard enough to put a threat/target down quickly using real ammo from the first shot, let alone starting with rubber ammo.
Good points - the drawback of the multiple-ammo-types approach is of course as you say.
I’ll probably load the first shot as bird shot, then after that is all #1 buckshot. I looked into some ballistics to see which type of shot is most capable of putting a man down. I read that #1 buckshot was best, as it won’t over-penetrate and maybe hit civilians or walls like #00 or #000, but it also has enough pellets to make sure the man is put down.
Personally I prefer #0 Buck, (LG in the UK.) It has always been a favourite load of mine, nine .32 cal balls per round should sort out an unarmoured life threatening situation if you’re ever unlucky enough to be involved in one.
The closest the UK has to #1 Buck is SG, which has twelve pellets as opposed to the #1’s eleven (?), but there’s little to choose between them.
I thought that SG’s were equivalent to 00 buckshot? I have some in 2 3/4 and they have 9 balls inside.
I could be wrong, but the LG I have here have a semi-opaque case and a clear plastic topwad, and they hold nine pellets. The SG are in three layers of four.
However they are Swartklip carts, that might have something to do with it.
I’ve not used US sizes for many years so I looked them up on this site:
http://www.fortliberty.org/military-library/shot-sizes.shtml
What about the old farmer’s trick?:
Take a shotgun shell, uncrimp it and replace the lead pellets with coarse salt. The crimp closed again.
The mother of a Ukrainian friend was hit by such a round from a guard’s shotgun where it hurts most when she and her friends were stealing fruit from a Kolchose in the 1950s. She couldn’t sit or lie on her back for two weeks 
Jan
:lol: ,wise and german,i will do that sir walt!
I know of this, it’s called rock salt. My great-grandfather was hit in the eyes with it and it burnt his eyes out
I know of this, it’s called rock salt. My great-grandfather was hit in the eyes with it and it burnt his eyes out[/quote]
:shock: ,oh my god,wtf had the old farmer in his head?
For defense I prefer real bullets. I don’t want someone getting back up and coming at me again if he had intentions to harm me in my own home anyway. I have 2 firearms loaded for defence in my home. The deadliest of these is a Mossberg .410 shotgun loaded with #7 shot - devestating at very close range. I hope that i never have to use it, but if they break in and come toward me, they were asking for it. And they will get it.
And your other is:
I think you’ll find that the .22rf hOllowpoints will stop in a cute little bunny wabbit, since that is what they are designed to do.
And I think you’ll find that neither .410 nor No.7 shot are particularly devastating.
I think you’ll find that the .22rf hOllowpoints will stop in a cute little bunny wabbit, since that is what they are designed to do.
And I think you’ll find that neither .410 nor No.7 shot are particularly devastating.[/quote]
Quite wrong again, as always. Obviously you have ZIP for experience with firearms. Read and learn:
If a high velocity .22 LR is shot into a person at near PB range and does not hit bone, it may pass completely through a man. A .22 has the force to pass through a 2x4 of pine and then a bit more. Human flesh is much softer than wood my patent office clerk friend. A .22 LR travels at about 1200 to 1400 fts. By contrast, a 9mm Parabellus might have a velocity of only 700-1000 fps. Now, at 15m or more, the .22 should not pass through a man. But at near PB, it very well might, if it does not hit bone. However, if it hits bone, it may shatter the bone and vear off, grazing off the bone, and cause trmendous damage to internal organs. Nasty! Nasty nasty nasty! If you hit them in the flat-ish portion of the head or face, who cares about velocity. If it hits the flat of the forehead or an eye socket, it will bounce around in their skull, turning their brains into breakfast eggs. This is why the .22 is the weapon of choice for hitmen. One shot to side or back of the head - no need for a louder pistol.
As for the .410 3 in. mag shotgun, you are again wrong my patent office clerk friend. I’ll let someone else explain this to you. First I will inform you that a .410 3" mag will shred human flesh to the bone at near PB range several inches deep for an area of approximately 3 inches to 6 inches in diameter. Yes my boy. This is a devestating weapon at very close range. Devestating indeed. Now, as promised, the testiment of another . (Dig the picture of the .410 designed specifically for home defense. Awesome!)
“Thus, a .410 bore shotgun is a great choice. A 3 inch .410 shot shell fires 3/4 ounce of shot at 1100 feet per second, resulting in approximately 800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, and a 2 ½” .410 with ½ ounce of shot produces approximately 600 foot pounds at the muzzle. The delivered energy at the defense ranges considered here are greater than a .357 Magnum revolver cartridge, but the longer barrel and greater weight of the shotgun results in less than half the noise and recoil. More important, the shot pattern is about 8 inches in diameter at 20 feet (full choke), and does not generally penetrate a wall, whereas a .357 Mag bullet pierces walls easily…and unintended victims on the other side.
THE BEST HOME DEFENSE .410 SHOTGUN?
One excellent .410 bore shotgun for home defense was actually designed specifically for that task…wonder of wonders. The Mossberg HS410 (the “HS” an acronym for “Home Security”, model #50359) is a 6 shot pump action shotgun with an 18 ½" barrel having a spreader choke, ideal for close action shooting in home defense situations.
Now there is another excellent .410 bore shotgun on the market which may well be as good as or better than the Mossberg HS410 - the SAIGA .410 SHOTGUN. The cost of the Saiga is only about $270.00 - delivered, in 2005. It is an adaptation of the Kalashnikov designed AK-47 designed to fire .410 Magnum shot shells, has a semi-automatic action, and it comes with two magazines."
http://www.endtimesreport.com/homedefense.html
EDITED TO CORRECT CODES
Not being funny or anything, but why do you need something that powerful? Surely a bog-standard shotgun would get the message across?
Because if they enter my home, they might want to kill me? My .410 is just a plain one. But especially with 3" mag chamber, it is devestating. The intruder does not get chance No. 2 to come at me.
Ok fair enough, personally i wouldn’t assume that everyone trying to enter my home would want me dead, but then again you do live in America.