Dutch Army & Airforce 1939-40 (warning - big pictures)

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#1

Unprepared for war and equipped with obsolete weapons and equipment, the Dutch were rolled over in a few weeks.

The main rifle was the obsolete 6.5mm Mannlicher M1895 turnbolt, which came in a long rifle & several carbine versions:

The 6.5mm ammunition itself had been obsolete since the introduction of the spitzer (pointed) bullet in the 1st decade of the 20th century.

Their machine guns were also obsolete - the Madsen in 6.5mm (similar to this one):

The Lewis M20 in 6.5mm:

The Schwarzlose in 7.92x57R:

The Vickers in 7.92x57R and .303":

The Maxim in 7.92x57R:

Their aircraft were Fokker designs (Fokker was a Dutchman, not a German, although his name is usually associated with them due to their adoption of many of his WW1 biplane designs), and all were obsolete in 1940:

Fokker C.V observation / light bomber:

Fokker C.X observation / light bomber:

Fokker D.XVII fighter:

Fokker D.XXI fighter (note the fixed undercarriage), armed with an unimpressive 2 7.9mm FN machineguns:

Fokker C.1 “fighter-cruiser” (jachtkruiser), a similar concept to the Bf110:

As for “tanks”, this is it:

It did have a 37mm semi-auto Bofors cannon at a time when 20mm in tanks were common, although there were only 26 of these vehicles in total for a country of 16,000 square miles. Armour was 9mm on the turret & 5mm on the rest.

They also had some old Vickers Cardon-Lloyd vehicles, which are similar to the Bren gun carrier:

In effect, the Dutch did not have a hope in hell of holding back the Germans - they did well to last as long as they did.

Most of the images are from http://www.grebbeberg.nl/bibliotheek/bewapening/

#2

I feel sorry for the dutch in WW2. Fokker D.XVII fighter?? Would not like to fly that thing agaisnt the Luftwaffe! Their other planes are a bit more resonable.

More info on Fokker. Dutchman, founded his company in Berlin. Supplied the German Airforce during WW1 (Fokker Triplane). Then left Germany and returned to the Netherlands, continued on the aviation industry. Company went bankrupt in 1996.

#3

Stoatman,

I know the guys with the Maxim. They belong to a group (VHM) that does a lot of living history displays (both about the Dutch military in WW2, 1940 and the exile Prinses Irene Brigade as well as about life in the Netherlands under German occupation) in cooperation with the National War and Resistance Museum at Overloon. They also acted as extras in several History Channel and Discovery Channel productions. They are very serious about what they are doing.
The Maxim does either belong to the Museum or has been rented form a movie prop company called ANTA. In the later case it has been converted to blank firing.

Jan

#4

Nice photos mate, I can see why they wouldnt last long in May 1940 with such poor equipment. I think many here see the Germans as invincible, but they were merely the first to implement the new theories of mobile warfare on a grand scale, all the others were left playing catchup.

#5

Well, in fact they fought hard against the paratroopers. General Student him self was wounded by a dutch sniper almost at the end of the struggle.

#6

Yes, they fought hard against the FJ - but fighting small groups of paratroopers with obsolete kit is a different matter to fighting the main thrust of the invasion with obsolete kit.

#7

Those planes wouldn’t stand a chance agaisnt messerchsmits !
Poor pilots !

p.s. ; I must say the first chap looks like a jovial fellow; he musn’t seen much action…

#8

Id say he has seen combat, and just gone a bit crazy in the head. Whats the bet he flew the Fokker D.XVII and just couldnt take it any more!

As for those poor pilots who flew the Fokker D.XVII, I have more info!

Only 7 of those planes were in service when Germany attacked the Netherlands. They where actually used as fighter training, but went back into service because of the lack of fighters. The seven planes where numbered, 202,203,204,205,207,209,and 210. On May 11 (war started in 10 May 1940) the planes where ordered to escort reconnaissance/ground attack aircraft. No. 204 stayed behind, and was destroyed by German Aircraft the following day. The rest of planes had to fly over a dutch naval base to get to their destination. The Dutch naval base was told that no Dutch aircraft remained and the AA opened fire on the planes. No. 202 was destroyed in a crash landing. Badly damaged 203 made it to another airfield, the rest of the Fokker D.XVII made it to their destination.

12 May, No. 203 joined the rest of the fighters after being repaired. (5 Fokker D.XVII left). While landing on some airfield No. 203, and No. 207 crashed.

The remaining three was ordered to attack German troops. No German fighters were met but there was AA fire. No. 209, and 210 were badly damaged and left behind. They where destroyed the following day. The other plane (No. 205) managed to escape and flew back to a Dutch airfield, where it was destroyed on the ground after the surrender of the Dutch army.

The Fokker D.XVIIs had a sad and unpleasent life.

#9

those are sweet pictures! Thanks for sharing!

#10

That Fokker C.1 distinctly reminds me of another aircraft, although at this point in time I can’t for the life of me think what!!! Maybe the Northrop P-61.

#11

Dutch WW2 subs (fromhttp://www.dutchsubmarines.com/)

O-24 (in 1944):

K-XV (in 1943):

Unknown (in 1944):

#12

yep same thing crossed my mind at first I thougth it looked very similar to the P-38.

But then after looking at the P-61 I was like :shock: :shock:

Compare the Dutch C.1 to the P-61, it is almost the same!

#13

excuse me man of stoat,are you dutch?.(i think yes,so,i feel like a stupid).

#14

nee, hoor, ik ben geen Nederlander - ik ben engelsman, maar ik woon in Nederland sinds bijna 2 jaar.

(or in English, “No, I’m not Dutch - I’m English but I’ve been living in Holland for almost 2 years”)

#15

nee, hoor, ik ben geen Nederlander - ik ben engelsman, maar ik woon in Nederland sinds bijna 2 jaar.

(or in English, “No, I’m not Dutch - I’m English but I’ve been living in Holland for almost 2 years”)[/quote]

Off topic but:

Isn’t it weird how, when you speak German and English, you can read Dutch pretty much completely correctly? I don’t speak it at all but I can understand it very well when written…

BTW, shouldn’t it be “Engelsman”? :smiley: :smiley:

#16

nee, hoor, ik ben geen Nederlander - ik ben engelsman, maar ik woon in Nederland sinds bijna 2 jaar.

(or in English, “No, I’m not Dutch - I’m English but I’ve been living in Holland for almost 2 years”)[/quote]

Off topic but:

Isn’t it weird how, when you speak German and English, you can read Dutch pretty much completely correctly? I don’t speak it at all but I can understand it very well when written…

BTW, shouldn’t it be “Engelsman”? :smiley: :D[/quote]

Yeah, it should be really. My bad!

Dutch sits about equidistant from German & English - so many words sound the same or similar as one language or the other although the spelling is usually very different.

Ever wondered why school is pronounced “skool” & not “shool”? Cos “school” is a Dutch word, & “sch” is hard in Dutch.

#17

KNIL (Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch Leger or Royal Netherlands Indies Army), the Dutch colonial army in the Netherlands East Indies (present day Indonesia).

Following are photos of some weapons used in the NEI by the KNIL during the early stages of World War II in the Pacific.


KNIL Infantry Training in Netherlands East Indies
KNIL infantry training in the Netherlands East Indies prior to World War II. The Madsen can be seen in the middle foreground. Behind are troops armed with Mannlicher M95 bolt-action rifles. Photo from website: Het KNIL - Een Historisch Document, Hendrik Engelen (1914 - 1984) Soldaat in het Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch Leger http://home.wish.net/~mmann/fotos3.htm


Madsen Light Machine Gun
This is the version as used in the Netherlands East Indies. Photo provided by Mr. Eric Nuyt


Madsen Light Machine Gun
A close up of the type used in the Netherlands East Indies. Photo provided by Mr. Eric Nuyt.


Solothurn S18-1000 Anti-Tank Rifle 2

#18

greetings,
Im new to the forum, i was led to the site by my very fustrating search for images of the standard Dutch M95 turnbolt rifle (shown on the figure).
By the way where does this rather grand looking fellow live? Delft military museum or is it a sideshow figure??

I have trawled the web and can only find the ‘caracano’ and the other variants of the M95, does anyone have an idea where I could find some clear colour images of the particular rifle used by the figure/mannequin posted by ‘Man of Stoat’?

My main interest is primarily Irish military affairs and anything connected with irish soldiers abroad in particular, the wars of Louis XIV and Spanish/Dutch wars. So the Dutch cross into the sphere of Irish military history frequently. But Im starting to look at the 19th-20th centuries aswell.

So as you’ll guess i am new to the WWII, so I hope youll make some allowances for me :slight_smile:

My connection like lots of people of my generation with WWII is through my family.

I had two grand uncles killed in WWII one was killed in Hong Kong while in the 1st Middlesex Regt. on 19-12-1941 and the other (no details) died at home (Ireland) from injuries received in Italy serving i think with the British, both where Southern Irish citizens.

Their father my ‘great grand father’ was in WWI (no info on him) due to the troubles in Ireland medals and documents of ex-soldiers where destroyed by the families out of fear republican reprisal.

But if I can help in anyone with any Irish military questions/queries, i will be glad to help if i can.

All the best
John

#19

Color images here (just click on thumbnails for larger images):
http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/strategion/strategion/i004797.html

B/W images here:

#20

I’d like to change the somewhat black-white view of this discussion. The tendency of this discussion seems to be that the weak Dutch were rolled over by the Germans and therefore we were a sorry lot. I’m a born Dutchman and this topic therefore is of great interest to me. More over because my grand father would 've been sent to the Grebbeberg (the main line of resistance of the Dutch Army in those days) if he hadn’t switched with somebody else and ended up in Doesburg (a dutch city).

The Germans judged that the Netherlands would be run over in 1 day. This proved to be a very poor judgement. We were forced to surrender after 4 days of bitter fighting because the Germans threatened to bomb Rotterdam (the actual bombing took place AFTER the Dutch surrendered because the Luftwaffe wasn’t called back). The fact that the Germans resided to such fierce methods speaks for itself, in my honest opinion.

About our weaponry; the Schwarzlose may have been somewhat obsolete, but the Germans were very impressed by it’s specs. And Man of Stoat, you forgot the prime anti-tank weapon of the Dutch; the Böhler 4.7 cm PAG (Pantser Afweer Geschut (Anti-tank Gun in plain English)). In those days, this baby was a hypermodern weapon which actually made the Germans decide to attack the Grebbeberg WITHOUT armor support since the weapon was frequently seen there. Here are some small pictures of it:

The Dutch airforce shot down a considerable number of German planes. Figures are unknown, but between 35 and 40 planes were shot down in dogfights. This number is higher than the number of Dutch planes lost during air-combat. The combined Dutch air-defences and ground forces proved to be highly effective against the massive German air armada that was sent into battle over the Netherlands. In total over 525 crashed or emergency landed German planes have been accounted for during the entire May War in 1940. Of the 525 planes on the list probably about 200 were recovered and repaired, or used to assemble new planes from their intact parts. The German loss of planes was in many ways easy to overcome, but the loss of more than half their transport fleet would remain a burden throughout the war. Amongst others in the impending operation to invade Britain…

Also - the Dutch managed to capture many well trained air-crews from the crashed and landed planes in the west. Amongst the 1.350 POW’s that were later [13 and 14 May] shipped to England, many hundreds were highly trained Luftwaffe personnel that were harder to replace than the lost planes. It is unknown how many men of the Luftwaffe actually perished due to Dutch doing, but the most reliable German registry provides us with 198 names of aircrew that died in the period 10-18 May 1940 over Holland and that were actually buried.

I’d like to conclude by saying the Dutch army may have been undertrained (most mobilized soldiers weren’t even trained; all they did was digging fortifications), but they did give the Germans one hell of a fight! More than they expected…

Part of my reply came from this site: http://www.waroverholland.nl/. It’s a great site in English for those of you that are more interested in the Dutch struggle in May 1940.