East front nazi criminals who avoided the punishment after the war in West

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#21

Someone will correct me if I’m wrong on this call. Was not the number of German servicemen released from Soviet captivity in 1955, something like just ten thousand men? If true this would make Chevan’s statistic of only 15% seriously underestimated.

SS records on the number of Jews eliminated were exceptionally accurate and meticulous in their recording. As there was an element of anti Jewish sentiment by the Soviet government I would question claims contrary to German records.

While the men of the Heer were implicated in the massacres on the Eastern Front, much of this was part of the plan of implication by Hitler, Himmler and the SS. When Einsatzgruppen were carrying out liquidation operations they often gang pressed soldiers from the nearest units to carry out executions.

Regards to all, Digger.

#22

Well, Chevan has got some valid points…

Just after September 1939 in Poland, one “crazy cavalry major”, Henryk Dobrzanski “Hubal”, went into underground with two squadrons of cavalry. Well armed, with plenty of ammo and obvious support from local population, he and his unit survived until April 1940.
It is true that he become a legend… He and his soldiers. But his way become a death track for civilians. Germans followed them and any village which gave them food or even just hay for the horses, was burned to the ground and inhabitants killed.

AND ACCORDING TO GENEVA AND HAGUE CONVENTIONS GERMANS WERE RIGHT… They could do this legally…

“Hubal” Dobrzanski was many times asked by legal Polish authorities to disband his unit … he refused.
His actions brought many thousands of civilian victims…

So what about Stalin’s “partisans war”?
In Ukraine and Belaruss such war was a fact.
And I don’t think that victims of that war were 100% Jewish…

So, let’s look at war as it was, without propaganda bias. German forces were responsible for killing many Ukrainian and Belarussian civilians, which had nothing to do with the Jews. They just gave some food for partisans or let them sleep in the barn or just not reported their existence to German authorities.

AND THEY WERE PROSECUTED AND KILLED

So, why they are counted as Holocaust Jews?

Just my humble question…

#23

OK Digger, i’ll correct you :wink:
According to the Russian State Departmant Archive of historical documents of NKVD-MVD USSR about german POWs in Gulag and other camps:
During the war till 1945 in the soviet camps got 2 388 433 germans POWs
It were freed from the captivity and repatriated 2 031 743 POWs for the period 1949-1955.
It were perished for the different reasons - 356 182 POWs. Mortality (14.9%)

I think you mean the latest part of freed germans POWs , which were released to the germany in 1955 - “just ten thousand men”.

SS records on the number of Jews eliminated were exceptionally accurate and meticulous in their recording. As there was an element of anti Jewish sentiment by the Soviet government I would question claims contrary to German records.

So where are those SS records? Could you show me the source please?
And what do you mean as "anti Jewish sentiment by the Soviet government "?
May be you don’t know that till 1951 Soviet gov was pro-jewish.

Cheers

#24

I never hear about Henryk Dobrzanski , thanks mate.

This is the point.
Certainly pertisans made the life of civilians more danger and in the East where the germans were free from any human rules.
But…
You know the Ukraine and Belorussia had the powerful partisan movenment in 1941-43.

The effectiveness of the war shooting of partisans was such, that the commander-in-chief of guarding forces and the chief of the administrative area of army group “center” general von Shenkendorf forced was on 16 April, 1942, to report to commander the army group “center” of von Klyuge : “is completely obvious the enormous danger, which arose at the present time as a result of actions of partisans”.
More specifically presented the created situation another Hitler officer, Wolfgang Fiedler, who reported to his authorities: "on the wide spaces rule partisans, having its own government and control. They everywhere in the rear of our troops and next to the front. It is difficult to create itself accurate idea about the local conditions. Explosions on the railroads and other communications, acts of sabotage in all existing enterprises do not descend from the agenda

In summer 1943 partisans were counted about 250 000 mens and they controlled is over half ot territory of Belorussia and 1/4 of Ukraine. Germans was forced to use of 10-15% ot tropps from the East simply to protect the communications. But much danger for the germans was the strategical interaction of partisans and Red Army.
During the Soviet strategic offensive of summer 1943 (during the Kursk battle)peartisans began the famouse “Railway war”. During short perion were more then 400 explosions on the importaint railway station and bridges made the german communication practically parallized.

the transportation officer of army group “center” G. Teske wrote: "are discovered two new methods of the fight of partisans. On 22 July, 1943, partisans completed mainly on supply lines of group the “south”, south of Bryansk, mass explosions with number to 500. This was operational measure, since section farmstead Mikhajlovsk - the Bryansk, extremely necessary for the supply of divisions at the front, as a result of 430 explosions was precisely at the critical moments paralyzed
http://www.bryanskobl.ru/~pab/partisan/events.php?category=48

So there’re many who colloborate with germans but the many people who fight with germans in the rear.

Cheers.

#25

Chevan, you misunderstood me. I agree with you, that partisans were very strong. But in many cases Germans followed them burning villages which either supported partisans or just had a bad luck that partisans were close or blow nearby railway line etc.
Such pacifications had nothing to do with sonderkommandos chasing Jews.

This is what I meant.

#26

Well, sorry mate :slight_smile:
Sure you right , the lot of mass killing of civils in the East had nothing relation to the Holocaust.

#27

The treatment of POW’s by all sides has a more sinister undercurrent. Little known are the deaths of 167,000 German POW’s in French captivity, or the estimated 68,000 German prisoners who died from deliberate starvation in American camps.

These pale in contrast to the millions of Soviet prisoners who died in German captivity, whether they were worked or starved to death, or shot soon after capture, the Ponary massacre a prime example. Similarly Soviet citizens suffered horribly under German occupation and the death toll of these people may never be known.

While the ‘official’ death toll of Jews is put at 6,000,000, there will always be conjecture as to the exact figure. Professor Raul Hilberg’s exhaustive study of SS records arrives at a figure of 5,100,000 Jews being eliminated. The missing 900,000 figure may very well be other civilian executions which may/may not have been lumped under an overall figure.

There are similar discrepencies in Soviet figures. Your figure of 2,388,433 German POW’s is very close to other sources, but there are higher figures quoted for the number of German prisoners who died in Soviet captivity, as there are still some 480,000 unaccounted for German prisoners according to the Russian archive at Podolsk. Part of the problem lays with the long held belief most of the still reported as missing 700, 000 German prisoners had been in Soviet captivity. Clearly these figures are incorrect, but where does the discrepency lie?

Can there be a similar discrepency in your figures of Jews killed in the former Soviet Union by German forces? Document 2273-PS compiled by SS Major General Stahlecker for Heinrich Himmler reports 229,052 Jews shot in five months of operations from June 1941.

My apology for my earlier misquote of 10,000 men. Cause-fading memory and a lack of caffeine.:shock:

Regards to all,
Digger.

#28

The Central archive of Russian Defence Ministry in Podolsk has no relation to the german prisoners , dear Digger. In 1947 here was sended for the keepeng the cuptured German card index of soviet POWs in germans camps.
German POWs were in GULAG and the NKVD was responsible for the prisoners.
Just NKVD archive contain the information about POWs in soviet territory.
According “Report at the session of the association of the historians of World War II” 29.12.1998 by the professor Krivosheev G.F.
http://www.safety.spbstu.ru/book/hrono/hrono/statii/2003/krivosh.html
it was established the lates figures about Germans POWs in the USSR.
Total number (in 1945) - 2 389 560
Died in camp since (1945-1953) - 356 700 ,
died on the deportation points and in the way to the camps - 93 900 .
Total death - 460 000.
Mortality for all the period about 16%.
In difference of NKVD germans hadn’t not accurate statistic of death of soviet POW ( becouse it was “low race”)

Can there be a similar discrepency in your figures of Jews killed in the former Soviet Union by German forces? Document 2273-PS compiled by SS Major General Stahlecker for Heinrich Himmler reports 229,052 Jews shot in five months of operations from June 1941.

What’s mean “shot”? Are you sure it means killing?
Becouse in german orders were often used term of “decision” to the jews not only as killing but also as deportation too.

My apology for my earlier misquote of 10,000 men. Cause-fading memory and a lack of caffeine.:shock:

Be carefull with caffeine :wink: save the health

Cheers.

#29

There is little question in this. Some Holocaust deniers such as Irving will state that these documents are questionable because they do not implicitly state that Jews were “killed” methodically. But the euphemistic language of “evacuation” is chilling and unquestionably tells of mass-extermination (the Nazis knew that one way or another, history was going to examine their official documents, so they used semantic subterfuge). I imagine this also applies to documents relating to German efforts to “pacify” areas behind the lines via reprisal murders, especially where there was significant Soviet-Partisan activity…

While the men of the Heer were implicated in the massacres on the Eastern Front, much of this was part of the plan of implication by Hitler, Himmler and the SS. When Einsatzgruppen were carrying out liquidation operations they often gang pressed soldiers from the nearest units to carry out executions.

Regards to all, Digger.

Clearly, great thought was given to this. Indeed, it is because of the extreme brutality of these methods that often shocked and abhorred the “ideologically impure” men who were ordered to carry them out (average German soldiers fighting in the Wehrmacht), and this was the reason why the Concentration Camps were transformed into Death Camps…

#30

Digger, I’ve never heard numbers approaching anywhere near this, at least in the U.S. The common complaint is that the US Army treated German EPOWs far too nicely (they were paid volunteer laborers in many cases!). There was no “deliberate starvation” in American or Canadian hands. The War was far less personal here. Certainly, if Germany had invaded the US and had raised villages, killing their occupants like they did in the USSR, then the treatment of German POWs by Americans certainly would have been far worse. Many German POWs actually settled in the US after the War and became citizens.

These pale in contrast to the millions of Soviet prisoners who died in German captivity, whether they were worked or starved to death, or shot soon after capture, the Ponary massacre a prime example. Similarly Soviet citizens suffered horribly under German occupation and the death toll of these people may never be known.

While the ‘official’ death toll of Jews is put at 6,000,000, there will always be conjecture as to the exact figure. Professor Raul Hilberg’s exhaustive study of SS records arrives at a figure of 5,100,000 Jews being eliminated. The missing 900,000 figure may very well be other civilian executions which may/may not have been lumped under an overall figure.

There are similar discrepencies in Soviet figures. Your figure of 2,388,433 German POW’s is very close to other sources, but there are higher figures quoted for the number of German prisoners who died in Soviet captivity, as there are still some 480,000 unaccounted for German prisoners according to the Russian archive at Podolsk. Part of the problem lays with the long held belief most of the still reported as missing 700, 000 German prisoners had been in Soviet captivity. Clearly these figures are incorrect, but where does the discrepency lie?

Can there be a similar discrepency in your figures of Jews killed in the former Soviet Union by German forces? Document 2273-PS compiled by SS Major General Stahlecker for Heinrich Himmler reports 229,052 Jews shot in five months of operations from June 1941.

My apology for my earlier misquote of 10,000 men. Cause-fading memory and a lack of caffeine.:shock:

Regards to all,
Digger.

BTW, many of the Jews murdered in the Soviet Union by the Einsatzgruppen were not counted in the overall Holocaust death-figures…

#31

I would like to throw this figure out: 20-30 million Soviet deaths due to combat, reprisal murders, starvation, disease, forced labor, etc. Is this the death figure that most Russians were taught was their loss in the War? --The 20-30 million figure is what I have been led to believe. Is this correct?

#32

Total number of Soviet deaths under the orders of Stalin are often quoted as 20 million, with some sources claiming as high as 43 million deaths. Claim and counter claim, it is all very difficult to verify.

The one thing that does not need verification however is that Stalin is the world’s greatest mass murderer.

Regards to all,
Digger.

#33

I was speaking in regards to deaths as a result of the German invasion…

But yes, Stalin was a c*nt.

#34

Very descriptive Nickdfresh:rolleyes:

The question of the final Soviet death toll is not an easy one to answer. For a long time 20 million has been the accepted figure, but in recent times there has been speculation the figure could have been as high as the 30 million quoted.

I’m sure Chevan would be able to throw further light on this one.

Regards to all,
Digger.

#35

The Document 2273-PS specifically states the Jewish victims were shot, This was the preferred method of execution by the Einsatzgruppen at that time.

Regards to all,
Digger.

#36

Im sure the Russians dont even know for sure. When you dealing with that many people its hard to keep up with. Just look at the amount of MIA on the American side where the amount of KIA’s is 40-60 times less than the Russians. Thats just soldiers. The civilians would be even harder to keep up with. Ive yet to meet a Russian (well ones that I talked to ww2 about) that didnt have a family member envolved or lost in the war.

#37

Good points General. While we say certain official sources are accurate, there will always be discrepencies for a variety of reasons.

This is why there are question marks over the final entire death toll of the war. I don’t think there will ever be an accurate figure, especially with the civilian death tolls, remembering official census figures(if a country conducted a census)were very rubbery indeed.

Regards to all,
Digger.

#38

Sorry mate, didn’t mean to offend you.

Cheers

#39

:cool: Mate, you didn’t offend me at all. You summed it all up in one word, though I reckon I could have added a lot more expletives to describe the man.:wink:

Regards to all,
Digger.

#40

Well Digger this is very tupical mistake ( i’ll say for the propoganda purposes)
about 20/40/60 of Stalin order’s victims.
According population census of 1926 in the USSR lived 147 013 600.
Next census was in the 1939 the total population 170 600 000.
Since 1926 till 1939 the territory of USSR had no changes. Hance the number of total population was the resault of demography.
If the victims of Stalin’s policy really were about 20 million this necessarily would be reflected in the census.
Indeed the mass terror had place in 1918-1923 ( So called Big Red Terror)
The population of former Russian Impire (without Poland, Finland and Baltic states) was decreased over 10 million. This was the DIRECT RESAULT OF Civil war and Red Terror which was unleashed by Bolsheviks leaders like Trockij-Bernshtain & Co.
Certainly Stalins terror was cruel but not Stalin invented the GULAG.

Cheers.