Hi guys.
Do somebody know something about nazi criminals fate after the war.
I have a interesting example: Bah-Zelevski
This bas… commanded by the cruel massacre in Warsaw in 1944.
I read during the uprision he was called by BBS radio in list of mens who were responsable for atrocities.
After the war he was in western zone occupation. Also i know that he was convict for 10 (!!!) years by Bonn (!!!) court in 1956.
So anybody know somthing about this?
Erich fon Bah-Zelevski (1899-1972)
The best Hitler’s “specialist” of suppression of guerrialas.
He was appointed by the responsable for the distruction of polish partisan simce 21 jule of 1943. He was a who developed the “operation” of liqudation the Warsaw uprising.
How it was the one of the worst war criminal of WW2 lived so long time after the war?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/crimestoc.html
Although this mostly deals with the Holocaust it also covers other incidences such as The Malmédy Massacre. You might want to check out the “Nazi War Crime Trials [List]” Anyhow its a pretty good site about post war trials.
Thanks Gen.
But i don’t think that Malmedy Massacre where were killed 90 or 130 POWs is equal of the Warsaw atrosities (where killed about 15 000 rebels and at least 100 000 civilians).
Also SS-officer Bah-Zelevski was guilt in mass murdering of jews since 1942. It’s amazing how long time this bas… was free from any punishment for atrosities. And i think the 10-years sentence for him look like justification.
What do think about our polish friend?
Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski was kicked out of the Reichswehr for his pro Nazi sympathies and first came to real prominance for his role in the Rohm Putsch when he had a rival Ss Cavalry officer Anton Freiherr von Hohberg und Buchwald murdered.
At a meeting in Wewelsburg in early 1941 Himmler revealed to Bach-Zelewski the Nazi master plan for the elimination of thirty to fifty million Slavs and the relocation of millions of others.
In the wake of Barbarossa Himmler appointed Bach-Zelewski as HSSPF commander for Minsk and he enthusiastically carried out the round up and executions of political and undesirable elements. The HSSPF were actively competing with the Einsatzgruppen in the elimination of Jews as well.
Bach-Zelewski himself personally murdered large numbers of prisoners, usually with a bullet to the head and in early 1942 suffered a nervous breakdown. After being released from the SS hospital in Holenlychen he pleaded with Himmler to settle the whole Jewish business in the east.
Himmler warned Bach-Zelewski of the dire consequences he faced,"That is a Fuhrer order,"he replied.“The Jews are the disseminators of Bolshevism, if you don’t keep your nose out of the Jewish business, you’ll see what’ll happen to you.”
Himmler later in the year appointed Bach-Zelewski Cheif of Anti Partisan Formations, the post he held during the Warsaw Uprising. In his typical brutal fashion Bach-Zelweski’s forces crushed the rebellion. Guderian horrified at the brutal methods used, petitioned Hitler to remove Bach-Zelewski’s forces from the Eastern Front.
Hitler agreed, but not before ordering Bach-Zelewski to eliminate a potential cheif witness to the atrocities in the shape of SS Brigadefuhrer Bronislav Kaminski a White Russian. I believe this was why Bach-Zelewski was able to slip through the net.
Regards to all,
Digger.
Thanks Digger good info
Bronislav Kaminski
Indeed it’s no a single datas was Kaminski shooted by order of Hitler, or was killed by partisan.
No any doubts Bach-Zelewski was one of the worst war criminal in WW2.
The “heroical” life of this scum during 1941-1945 is known enough good.
There are many testimonies of german generals: Hitler was in delight from Bach-Zelewski.
“Bach-Zelewski is extremaly talanted” - Said Hitler to somebody of generals after the cruel suppression of Warsaw uprising. -" He could persuade anybody" ( when poles was forsed to capitulate)
But what’s the real mystery for me - what was after 1945.
I know he was a witness for the prosecution on Nurenberg Tribunal against Himler. So he was in the hand of allies.
It’s absolutlu unpossible how he shun the gallows ?
It absolutly clear the till 1956 he calmly lived and nobody (except german court not interested him).
P.S.
The fate of another SS scum - Oscar Dirlivanger whose police batallion (mostly from criminals) also “glorified” in Warsaw (together with SS-brigade of Kaminski) also is quite strange.
After the capitulation of Germany , Dirlivander come to the hand of french, was puted to the Hospital(!!!) Then he simply dissapeared.
I have to agree with last ones kamiski and Dirlewanger were probably the most discusting war criminals of the WW2, with the excepsion of their bosses, but Kamiski for example outraged Himmler himself :shock:
In any case this 2 did not scape justice, simply had anither “kind” of more violent punishment.
Some war criminals dis escape the justice for long time and were helped by the allied forces like Klaus Barbie, but eventually also fell.
So do you think is it normal the people who has a personal guilt in mass atrosities in East calmly lived after the war?
So what for was sentence the nazi’s leader in Nerenberg? If the nazi’s executors of mass crimes avoided the punishment.
P.S.
New joke about it:
The jewish of Simon Viezental’s centre ( which search the nazi criminals around all the world) declared in the Estonia that every who helped to find any estonian-nazi criminal (or colloborat with nazi) who still lived in country will get $10 000 reward.
One to the answer the member of Estonian government suggest to declare the reward of $20 000 whom give the information about Estonian jewish-communist during the soviet ocupation period. :):)
So do you think is it normal the people who has a personal guilt in mass atrosities in East calmly lived after the war?
Is not normal and is not right, but unfortunately it happen several times, take the case of Doktor Mengele for example, he deserve to be hang for sure, but he escaped from the justice and died peacefully in Brazil.
Hi Chevan, thanks for this thread, mate!
http://www.spectacle.org/695/perp.html
"Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski was an Einsatzgruppen general in the East responsible for the shooting of hundreds of thousands of Jews. (About two million of the war’s six million Jewish victims were killed in this manner.) During a visit during which Himmler witnessed the murder of one hundred Jews, Bach-Zelewski told him:
Look at the eyes of the men in this Kommando, how deeply shaken they are! These men are finished (fertig) for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages!
In 1942, Bach-Zelewski had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized for “psychic exhaustion” and “hallucinations connected with the shootings of Jews” However, he recovered and went back to killing(Lifton, pp. 159, 437).
Bach-Zelewski’s fate after the war makes an interesting footnote. He was tried in 1961 for his part in the murders of the S.A., the rival German military arm, in 1934, and sentenced to three and one half years; he was then tried again in 1962 for the murder of six Communists in 1933, and sentenced to life. Neither indictment mentioned his Einsatzgruppen activities. Arendt says: “He was also the only one in this category who in 1952 had denounced himself publicly for mass murder, but he was never prosecuted for it” (p. 16)."
I can add my own comment: Poland and USSR after WWII and well into 70’s, had quite a lever and power to demand prosecution of nazi war criminals. Both countries and their communist governments never used this powers against von dem bach-Zelewski.
Reasons?
-
Any independent court would disclose that claims od Einsatzgruppen shooting 2 million Jews in Belarus and Ukraine are greatly inflated. 2 mln people, yes, but not all of Jewish origin.
USSR was a great supporter of new born Israel. Weapons and help was transferred easily. When Israel become more of an US ally, USSR gradually become Israel enemy and supported Arabs.
Digging into past was neither convenient for USSR and Israel…
Please, remember that countries may be at war, but their intelligence agencies are still talking in neutral countries… -
Polish communists always bent backwards to orders from Moscow. For them Warsaw Uprising and massacre of Warsaw civilians perpetrated by von dem Bach Zalewski was a topic to say, at least embarassing…
Uprising in Warsaw was in essence anti-soviet… Any publicity would again provoke question of Stalin’s reaction to Warsaw mutiny.
It was much more convenient to promote rebuilding of Warsaw, than again disclose that Wola district massacres were Kaminski’s and his Russian traitors job.
Conclusion: Thousands or millions of victims are not important for politicians or governments. Doesn’t matter who and when is involved.
BTW, both von dem Bach Zalewski and Kaminski had Polish parents… Sometimes I wonder what is hidden in human genes…
What is a real meaning of the word traitor…?
There is a lot of topics in WWII history which are still in a fog. Russian collaborators, Polish volksdeutches…
We will learn more in coming years…
Lancer44
A large number of ‘war’ criminals from the SS, Gestapo, SD, and other Nazi security forces escaped justice purely and simply because they were recruited by the reformed security and armed forces of East and West Germany.
Regards to all, Digger.
Not only East and West German… I can find quite a few cases where military intelligence of Poland, USSR, Hungary and Romania closed eyes and recruited
“brilliant” fellows with nazi past.
The other side of the Iron Curtain was not better! If not worse!
But there is a difference between nazi agent, nazi scientist, nazi specialist and NAZI BUTCHER…
Cheers,
Lancer44
I think this situation could have been called post war expediency. Also South American countries were beneficiries of these gentlemen.
Regards to all,
Digger.
I wholeheartedly agree. People like Jochen Pieper got off with leniency for their massacres of Soviet citizens. I’m not positive, but I believe US prosecutors tried to factor in these murders and posed the killings of US POWs as something of a symbolic event that would lead to a greater justice. I know at his trial, Pieper’s “Blowtorch Battalion” antics were mentioned often. But unfortunately, he ended up being granted leniency (only 11-years in Prison!) because of several missteps by the prosecution as his death sentence was commuted to life in prison. To this day, I wonder who actually killed him in 1976? Rumors abound that he was assassinated by the KGB, US war veterans, or veterans of the French Mache (resistance)…
And thank you for this thread Chevan, Nazi atrocities against the unarmed men, women, and children of the former Soviet Union need to be spoken of more often…
And the French Foreign Legion --many served in Indochina (Vietnam) during the early 1950s…
As did the CIA, and US Army Military Intelligence, and more often than not, they really had little worthwhile to offer as intelligence professionals…
Thanks very much guys 
Thank you dear Lancer.Now i learn more about this scum.
I/m sure that killing of six communist in 1933 - all what was really proven.
Mate you touched the two great problems:
First no one independent western court will concider the lives of slav as equal the lives the vestern citizents. I think this is the main reason why many of nazi criminals ( who was noted only in atrosities in East) run to the west.
If you killed the tens of thousands of slav you will get the les punisment if you would killed the tens of Allies POWs.
I think it was the duals standarts. The Cold war just intensify it but it was not the primary reason.
Second the claim for the killing of millions of the jews in East. You absolutly right 2 million of jews was the greatly inflated and any court could easy refuse this number (as and the common number 6 millions of Holocoast) . I think this was becose Israel don’t demand to judge many of nazi criminals like Bach-Zelewski.
USSR was a great supporter of new born Israel. Weapons and help was transferred easily. When Israel become more of an US ally, USSR gradually become Israel enemy and supported Arabs.
Digging into past was neither convenient for USSR and Israel…
Please, remember that countries may be at war, but their intelligence agencies are still talking in neutral countries…
Mate i hear about single war criminal who was deportered from US to the Israel for the court claim - Ivan Demijnchuk (nicknamed as Ivan Grozny). According official version he took part in the mass execution of jews in the Ukrain. But court couldn’t prove his personal partisipation at the killing and …Ivan Grozny was passed back to the US.
- Polish communists always bent backwards to orders from Moscow. For them Warsaw Uprising and massacre of Warsaw civilians perpetrated by von dem Bach Zalewski was a topic to say, at least embarassing…
Uprising in Warsaw was in essence anti-soviet… Any publicity would again provoke question of Stalin’s reaction to Warsaw mutiny.
It was much more convenient to promote rebuilding of Warsaw, than again disclose that Wola district massacres were Kaminski’s and his Russian traitors job.
Indeed mate, USSR had’t agreement with USA( or the other western country) for the givvin out the WW2 war criminals . Breznev wished to sign this agreement during his visit in USA ( it seems in 1971) with president J. Karter. But on political reasons ( from US side) Karter refused this agreement.
So till Gorbachev USSR hadn’t any international rights to demand war criminals back.( as and Poland).
Therefore nazi criminals feels calm in US and Canada.
Just single case ( as i told) with Ivan Grozny was the exclusion.
But as i say not only USSR didn’t demand the nazi criminals back, but also Israel. And Britain who promised the poles in 1944 to execute the Bach-Zelewski nothin did after the war.
Conclusion: Thousands or millions of victims are not important for politicians or governments. Doesn’t matter who and when is involved
You know what i think, handrets of WW2 war criminals ( famouse and not) were live in Europe and in USA without any punishment for its atrosities.
Becouse it was unpossible to prove indeed.
So mate, may be we belive in Great Myth about mass atrocities of WW2.
Don’t you think so if there are many of war criminals but nobody could prove it’s guilt?
Thanks Nickdfresh.
Yes i know about cases of killing the WW2 war criminals who lived in the west.
Also i remember when Mossad had steal from the western state ( don’t remember which) one famouse nazi criminal for the court in the Israel, but could deliver and just shoot him.
Cheers.
Based on his study of SS and Reich Foreign Ministry records American historian Raul Hilberg has arrived at a figure of 900,000 Soviet Jews eliminated. The country most decimated of it’s Jewish population was Poland with some three million exterminated. These figures were scrupuously recorded by the SS.
Figures for the number of Slavs murdered by the Nazi’s varies widely with figures ranging from one to two million. Had the war been won by Hitler the biggest mass extermination of a race would have begun with the planned murder of thirty to fifty million slavs.
Regards to all,
Digger.
Indeed dear Digger there’re no any records of SS in nature. If it really was - the handrets of such criminals like Bach-Zelewski would hang immediatelly after the war. The figure 900 000 of killed jews has not relation to the reality becouse about 80% of soviet jews were evacuated from the Ukraine and Belorussia in 1941-42. The exception were the those cities which Stalin ordered don’t evacuate like Kiev ( to stop the panic of civilians). As the resault practically all of the Kiev’s jewish population were captured by the germans who inmmediatelly begin the public executions ( Babi yar massacre). In Kiev were killed at least 20-30 000 jews since 1941-43.
The total percent population of jews in the USSR till the WW2 was 2,1-2,5% i.e. about 5 million - the biggest jewish community in the world at that period.They lived mostly in cities ( 75%) in western and central part of USSR.
As i said some big cities like Kiev were captured so quick ( becouse german Barbarossa was successful) that all the jewish population were in germans hands. But another cities like Harkov were evacuated very quick and jews were first who run away.
In common in the german zone of occupation were no more 500 000 jews mostly from the rural. The total number of killind in former USSR was about 150 000 - 200 000. Other part ( about 200 000) were deported to the concentration camps in Eastern europe. It’s fate unknown but many of them perished. The litle part of jews about 20-30 000 joined to the partisants in Belorussian and Ukrainian forests.
After the liberation of USSR from the germans many of jews come back to the Ukrain , Belorussia , Moldavia and Baltic.
Despite of the common view after the WW2 the jewish population of USSR in increased in per cent. For instance if till the war in Moldavia lived 2.7% of jews then in the begining of 1950y already 3% i.e. the native Moldova nation suffer more then jews. The simular picture was and in the Ukrain ( excetp its western part where till end of 1950 “forest brothers” fought agains the soviet) after the war the jewish population were quickly restored.
Figures for the number of Slavs murdered by the Nazi’s varies widely with figures ranging from one to two million. Had the war been won by Hitler the biggest mass extermination of a race would have begun with the planned murder of thirty to fifty million slavs.
.
Yes Digger the so called plan “Ost” - the forced limitation of slav population of former USSR to 30-50 millions. As the main condition of this plan was the dividing of Russia to the many litle states hostinity to the each other . Already in “Main Kampf” Hitler told about “Eastern lands” which was nessesary for the life space of master race.
The exact figure of slavs who were murdered in ww2 unknown today. Just it’s known from the german sources about 4 million of soviet POWs. The total mortality since 1941 till 45 was about 60% (!!!) i.e. about 2 million of POWs died. (For the compare the mortality in german POWs in soviet camps was abot 15% from the 1944-1953).
The number of perished civil population of USSR were enormous. This was as the resaul of direct assault of german war activity ( bombing the cities and artillery fire) but the worst was the German policy in occuped territory.
The tactic of supression were extremaly unhuman. German used the native colloborationists in police. The cruelty of this “police” sometimes wondered even SS.
The atrocities of germans on the East had began from the speech of Hitler 30 march of 1941 when he demanded from 250 high german officers to be extremaly merciless to the east population.
Despite to the tupical point in East were guilt of atrocities not only SS zonder command and policai but and wermaht soldiers. The german historian
Wette Wolfram in his work :“Wermacht and Holocaust” told about a lot of cases of mass executions of jews and sowiet POWs by the wermacht troops.
The “lovely” methods of fight with partisans was also ferocious.
The common practice in the occuped territories was to take the slav civils in hostages and then shoot them for every killed german soldiers.
It was a special SS order - to kill 50 communist for every german soldier killed by partisans. Don’t need to be the genius to understand that “50 communist”
means 50 women ,children and old mans.
There’re a lot of cases when germans “saved the ammunition” and simply knoked the peoples into shed and burned them.
They made it everywhere . For instance Odessa germans and romanians burned a lot of Jews and soviets POWs.
The one of the most cynical and famouse mass burning of peoples was in the Belorussain villige Khatyn ( don’t confuse it with Katyn) where 23 march of 1943 were burned 149 jewish families together with children ( most little was just 2 y.o.).http://www.khatyn.by/
Becouse of simular methods the victims of civil opulation in USSR was the awful.
Cheers.