Effectivity of chemical weapons.

The question was posed on another thread “Are chemical weapons really weapons of mass destruction?” well here’s my opinion:

It depends.
Now that may sound like a wishy, washy answer but a lot depends on the interpretation of “mass destruction”, if you mean mass casualties then with the right delivery system on a suitable target, certain chemical agents can produce large amounts of casualties. A scenario here may be a crop duster loaded with nerve agent ( almost any would do, sarin soman etc), spraying a busy city centre crowded with unprotected civilians, this however in todays heightened awareness of such possibilities is virtually impossible and any such aircraft would have experienced an unsuccessful race with an air to air missile long before they got to any large target area.

If you mean mass terror then this also applies to chemical weapons and has done so since their mass use during the first world war, as the news of these “terrible weapons” trickled back to the civilian populations a media hysteria made chemical weapons into the “nuclear weapons” of that time, this is best illustrated by the Lewisite story:

In 1917 the US american chemist Lewis discovered the compound 2-Chlorovinylarsine dichloride or as it became known Lewisite. The Americans, keen as they are, rushed straight into production of this new super weapon in the sure knowledge that it would strike a blow against the Hun.

Little did they know Lewisite had already been discovered in Germany, by the chemist Wieland and, after testing, was discarded as a possible chemical agent due to it’s high reactivity with water making it’s persistency in a normal environment much too short to be effective. The first shipment of Lewisite was on it’s way to Europe when the war ended so it was never used in combat, however when the media learned of this new secret weapon, it’s effects were blown out of all proportion and it acquired such chilling names as “Dew of death” (Todestau) I have seen reports from that time where scenarios such as a couple of small Lewisite bombs over New York being capable of wiping out large areas of the city are illustrated, demonstrations occurred in a similar way to those against nuclear weapons in the 70s and 80s which helped lead to the strengthening of earlier protocols regarding the use of chemical agents (1925 Geneva Protocol), although states still reserved the right to use them in retaliation. All this over a chemical that is inneffective as a weapon (although I can from experience say it hurts :lol: ).

Moving on to modern times and the use of chemical and biological weapons by the Aum Shinrikyo cult in Japan. This group used chemical agents on 4 occasions and biological once in 1994 -1995 only 2 of these attacks producing large amounts of casualties those being the Matsumoto sarin attack (7 dead, 269 casualties total) and the Tokyo sarin attack (12 dead, 13 critical, 37 severe, 984 moderate, 4464 mild). These were uses of chemicals as weapons of mass terror/casualties and effective as they were for this purpose were not exactly weapons of mass destruction.

In military terms against a modern military equipped with protective equipment and trained to a reasonable standard chemical weapons are pretty much useless, against unprotected civilians whether used by military (Kurds in the 80s in Iraq) or terrorists (Japan 94-95) however they can still be effective. What does however have an impact is the psychological effect of the threat of chemical warfare largely due to the media and certain politicians blowing the effects of such weapons out of all proportion.

Ok any questions?

Edit: typo

Don’t forget the use of chemical weapons (mainly mustard gas and tear gases) against unprotected peasants and peasant rebels by the Japanese in China in the 1930s (given up by them btw, because contaminated areas affected their own troop movements as well) and against tribal warriors in Abbysinia (spell?) in 1936 by the Italians.
Churchill proposed to use chemical weapons against rebellious Iraqi villagers and tribesmen in the 1930s.

Fuchs,

What you say correspondents with the NBC training I received in the THW back in the 1980s.
BTW 2, Lewisite was called CLARK (Chlor-Arsen-Kampfstoff) in German. It was designed as a “Maskenbrecher” a “mask breaker”, since it could penetrate all gas filters used at this time in gas masks.

Jan

Jan

I haven’t forgotten the Japanese in China (I didn’t want to go on too long) they used mainly what was designated as

Red agent Clark 1 Clark 2 mix
and
Yellow agent Sulphur mustard/Lewisite mix.

I have been and am involved in the Japanese work to clear up their old chemical weapons.

As far as Lewisite goes sorry Jan you’ve been taught wrong (I also have done courses with the German fire brigade and they told all sorts of unusual “facts”)

Lewisite, NATO designation L is 2-chlorovinyl Arsine dichloride
Clark 1 NATO designation DA is Diphenylarsine Chloride
Cark 2 NATO designation DC is Diphenylarsine Cyanide
Adamsite NATO designation DM is Phenarsazine Chloride

The Clark 1 and 2 were as you state called mask breakers as they are dispersed in the form of an aerosol which got through the old types of filters as they lacked a particle filter.

Editted to add: There are major differences between the effects of Lewisite and Clark, L is a blister agent (Hautkampfstoff) and has similar effects to mustard agent Clark 1 and 2 however are respiratory irritants (Nasen- und Rachenreizstoffe)

Edit: typo

I’ve never really understood many people’s squeemishness about chemical weapons (if used against soldiers - clearly using it against defenceless civvies is wrong). Is it really any worse choking to death on your own blood because of some gas than it is choking on your own blood because you’ve been shot in the lungs?

It’s not really a way I’d choose to go, but being bayonetted in the stomach or burning in a brewed up tank aren’t either - so why do we rate chemical weapons (on a battlefield) as so terrible, whereas bayonets, anti tank shells and bullets aren’t? Is it because it’s not a physical substance we can touch and see? Is it some kind of primevil fear of fire (equatting gas with smoke)?

Not exactly on topic, but I read something similar once about soldiers not really seeing a difference in what kills them, because either way they’re dead, and seeing this today got me thinking again.

I think a lot of it was basically the media and political opinion of chemical warfare as somehow more terrible and less sporting than conventional warfare combined with the recognition by the military that against trained and equipped troops chemical weapons are next to useless, that led to their banning.

Edit to add: chemical warfare was actually pushed by quite a few military and scientific leaders as a more humane form of warfare at the start of WW1.

So chemical weapons are only usefull as a terror weapon against untrained and unprotected civilians.

Fuchs,

You are right, the course i mentioned was a two day course held by the Berlin fire brigade for all disaster relief organisations. Since I was studying physics and chemistry back then in university, my platoon commander thought that I had the right background and should become the unit’s NBC guy in charge of the testing and protective equipment additionally to my other trade in demolitions.

My information about Japanese chemical weapons comes from an interview with a veteran of such a unit during the China war, though he was just a private in this unit and wasn’t taught much except how to handle the equipment.

Jan

Basically yes and this has been so since the end of WW1.

See the examples you mentioned, Abbysinia, Iraq and China along with Iraq/Iran (chemicals were effective against unprotected Iranian troops) and Iraq (Kurds).

Certain chemicals are also “useful” for more clandestine operations see:

Assasination of Georgi Markov in London (OK it was Ricin, a toxin not exactly a chemical agent but still relevant)
Assasinations in Japan by that old favorite the Aum cult using VX (apparently).
There were also claims from some quarters that the US used VX on the Ho Chi Min trail (VX is persistent and spread on the ground is a hazard over a long period, especially against people with bare feet) this has however never been proved and is unlikely.

Well as it was me who posed the original quaestion I’ll chip in.

I dont think they are weapons of mass destruction unless used on a massive scale. An example of this may have been massive use by the Soviet Union if the Cold War had gone hot.

I think the only true weapon of mass destruction is a nuclear one, and of course it is expedient for certain politicians to link the two together.

They can though as has been stated here, be a very effective terror weapon.

AFAIK, it was also planned by the British war cabinet in 1940 to use massive quantities of chemical weapons against the landing beaches, should the Germans try an invasion. Even later in WW2, chemical weapons were held ready, as the Bari incident showed.

Jan

How about the B in NBC ?

Biological weapons are difficult to control and depending on their type can be a double-edged sword.

They managed quite well in the Ancient World and up through the Middle Ages when it came to sieges, but I can’t really see many armies setting up ballistas or trebuchets in the near future.

The US forces did well with the blankets to the Indians, but that might be construed as a terrorist act these days.

Sorry to drag it off topic Fuchs, back to the chem wpns.

As I said it depends how you interpret “Mass destruction” the planned usage by Soviet forces eg saturation attacks with hydrogen cyanide shortly before a conventional attack would have more than likely produced mass casualties, but mass destruction…?

I agree on the nuclear side these are definately weapons of mass destruction by anyones’s standards and you make the very good point that politics tends to muddy the water greatly.

As I said it depends how you interpret “Mass destruction” the planned usage by Soviet forces eg saturation attacks with hydrogen cyanide shortly before a conventional attack would have more than likely produced mass casualties, but mass destruction…?

I agree on the nuclear side these are definately weapons of mass destruction by anyones’s standards and you make the very good point that politics tends to muddy the water greatly.[/quote]

Very much agree, mass destruction has been twisted from mass killing, but I dont see anything wrong with them using weapons of mass terror/killing (as a descriptor), I suppose making the link with nuclear makes it seem scarier.