Enemy at the Gates

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#1

I recently read Enemy at the Gates by William Craig. I thought it was generally pretty good.

In the bibliography, it shows that Craig had three different sources to use for the Zaitsev/Konnings duel, which were an interview with sniper Tania Chernova, Zaitsev’s and Chuikov’s war memoirs. Obviously, Craig was led to believe it was all true while, as said in every article that ever talks about him, German army records prove there was no soldier like Konnings (or Konig or Heinz Thorvald) in service.

Aside from that, EatG was a pretty sensationalized book with a lot of heroism and the like. I did not see the movie yet, so I don’t know how that is.

#2

Russians really, really love this film and consider it the most factually correct assessment of Stalingrad, or any other battle, ever set on film…

#3

:mrgreen:
Are you specially has wrote it, to irritate me?
Where have you seen “Russians” who love this slander film?
This is probably one of the worst holliwood post-cold war propogand that drop the shame on all the russian army as at the herd of subhumnans who starts the attack with whistle without ammos and when red-faces nkvd officers killed more russian soldiers than the german army;)…
What if this film is based on the true story of Duel Zaitsev with Germans supersniper ( of couse not Konig or Heinz Thorvald, but real unknown germans super sniper)?
The all the rest is a full lie , that never happend…
Including the Jew-comissar Danilov and Zaithsev’s Jewish girlfriend;)
This film HAS nothing common with real memours and recollection of both Zaitsev and Chuikov…
Even the scene of final duel was false…

#4

:wink:

I’ve seen entire sites dedicated to how much this film is hated.

#5

Hate to burst the bubble, my dear Chevan, but the NKVD had entire units posted as “blocking units” specifically to gun down anyone in brown uniform that ran the wrong way…

Russia’s record in this field of human endevour is very well known…no sense in denial anymore…

If you like, I’ll post an article by John Hill that illustrates the difference between the infantray tactics of four of the principle nations of WW2…Germany, Russia, America and Britain…I’ve seen an interview with an Officer from the 1st NKVD Division who clearly states that,
“Summary executions of cowards were carried out on the spot…was I glad I did this?..YES…UNQUESTIONABLY…these people wewre traitors to the Motherland and got what they deserved…”

#6

Brown???

#7

Please take a look at the thread “Shoot our Men”.

For example: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=93171#post93171

#8

Ok OK…dark Khaki…Russian unforms look brown enough to me from the photos I’ve seen…

What is the actual color as described by Russians themselves?

#9

Khaki.
Or simply - Green

#10

Blocking Units have been entered by the GErmans in winter 1941, my dear B5N2KATE.
It was proved to be the harsh but effective way to prevent the panic.Not believe me - just read the Germans.
The primary aim of Blocked Units were NOT to mass execute the retreating troops , but prevent it.

«Так, 15 октября 1942 года в ходе ожесточенных боев в районе Сталинградского тракторного завода противнику удалось выйти к Волге и отрезать от основных сил 62-й армии остатки 112-й стрелковой дивизии, а также 115-й, 124-й и 149-й отдельных стрелковых бригад. При этом среди руководящего командного состава наблюдались неоднократные попытки бросить свои части и переправиться на восточный берег Волги. В этих условиях для борьбы с трусами и паникерами особым отделом 62-й армии была создана оперативная группа под руководством старшего оперуполномоченного лейтенанта госбезопасности Игнатенко. Объединив остатки взводов особых отделов с личным составом 3-го армейского заградотряда, она провела исключительно большую работу по наведению порядка, задержанию дезертиров, трусов и паникеров, пытавшихся под разными предлогами переправиться на левый берег Волги. В течение 15 дней оперативной группой было задержано и возвращено на поле боя до 800 человек рядового и командного состава, а 15 военнослужащих по постановлению особорганов были расстреляны перед строем.

14 сентября противник предпринял наступление против частей 399-й стрелковой дивизии 62-й армии. Бойцы и командиры 396-го и 472-го стрелковых полков стали в панике отходить. Начальник заградотряда младший лейтенант госбезопасности Ельман приказал своему отряду открыть огонь над головами отступающих
Игорь Пыхалов .“Великая оболганная война”

During the fierce Stalingrad battale for Tractor’s Plan , the special blocking unit succesfully covered the rear of 62 army.
for 15 days of critical battle- they intercepted and returned back 800 solders. ( 15 deserters have been publically executed in front of trop’s fromation)
You see 15 were executed from 800.
But nobody shooted at the Retreat troops from mashin-guns.
That’s why the Enemy at the Gates is nothing but simply propogandic rusophobian lie…
Like it as much as you can.

Russia’s record in this field of human endevour is very well known…no sense in denial anymore…

Show me a “Russian record”, man:)
The Enemy at the gates i have seen already…

If you like, I’ll post an article by John Hill that illustrates the difference between the infantray tactics of four of the principle nations of WW2…Germany, Russia, America and Britain…I’ve seen an interview with an Officer from the 1st NKVD Division who clearly states that,
“Summary executions of cowards were carried out on the spot…was I glad I did this?..YES…UNQUESTIONABLY…these people wewre traitors to the Motherland and got what they deserved…”

Exactly - execution of cowards and traitor this is HIS primary work.
And he did absolutly right, the Any Army have to punish and execute its traitors- this calls the military order and discipline. Germans did it, Americans also.
But not All retreat troops are becoming the traitors on definition
The any NKVD officer , who order to shot the OWN troops by such way - will risk by his life, not even a carier.
In 1942 the total shortage of troops in Red Army can’t admit the mass execution of own retreated troops.
So you simply make and adsurd , mixing this you quote with the Blocking units theme…

#11

The scenes of city war is reconstructed in “Enemy at the Gates” much better than in any Soviet movie.

This is probably one of the worst holliwood post-cold war propogand that drop the shame on all the russian army as at the herd of subhumnans who starts the attack with whistle without ammos and when red-faces nkvd officers killed more russian soldiers than the german army;)…

But Stalin and his top commies were subhumans in every definition. How can anyone expect that the army they created would have operated differently?

#12

Игорь Пыхалов .“Великая оболганная война”

“The great slandered war”.

A very doubtful source even judging by its name that testifies about the attempt to revive Soviet fiction about WWII.

#13

What any soviet movie do you mean?

But Stalin and his top commies were subhumans in every definition. How can anyone expect that the army they created would have operated differently?

But hee needed the effective army to save a power, right?
So why we shall think he ordered to execute all the retreats when the red army survived the shortage of troops?
Or in your oppinion , all “subhumans” are just intellectual degenerates ans idiots?According Nazic race propogand.

#14

This book is just an collection of facts, statistic and memours of former soldiers, express the oppinion of Authors and supported by many of veterans as i know.
And i have no reason not to trust his figures.
Is the official admission of veterans of UPA in Ukraine and publishing their recollection is the revive of Nazism too?

#15

I doubt if any movie made is totally factual or in the case of Stalingrad brutal or graphic enough.
None of us had to do what either side had to do to survive, and the civilians had it even worst.
Now-all we can do is be critical of movies of such.
Its entertainment, and produced to make money-----other wise they would have used unknown actors!
There were villans and heros on both sides of the war--------and the war is over.
Buy a bag of popcorn and enjoy what is available. At least you can see the show, or rent the movie.

Randy1945

#16

I dont know how or why you pick Russians to hate. No country has a lock on GOOD soldiers or decent treatment of any humans during war.

Like me I doubt if you were there, or know of the actual circumstances of how and why things happened.

WW2 is over, Viet Nam is over, and hopefully Iraq and Afgan will be over, but as long as there are soldiers fighting there will be terrrible things done-----some on purpose and some by accident.

Doesnt matter if it is men, women or children------bad things happen in war and people in wars fight to win for their country. Anyone on the other side is a fair target if it gets the job done.

We (allies)mass bombed cities--------and not necessarily targeting military targets. The difference was by bombs and not by bannonet, guns, raping or so forth. Dead just the same.

As long as there are wars ----for what ever the purpose----people will be killed------and many didnt do anything wrong----except being there.

The Russians were brutal in order to win. Their country was as stake and the Germans wanted it. Sometimes they used human waves to make the Germans use up their ammo-----and then they overran and killed them! Im sure someone in the military made those decisions in order to win.

Personally charging into machine guns–whether or not you had a weapon in your hands ----sounded like giving your life for your country----if it served the purpose of defeating the enemy.

Think about the time, and the weather and the results. Germany burned out on trying to overrun Russia, and although they killed many Russian soldiers the end result was the same. Defeat for Germany.

Its a book about history, and a movie adaptation of such. Thats all.

Randy1945