German Artillery silencer !!

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#1

[quote=“Panzerknacker,post:3,topic:3120”]

That was me being politically correct :rolleyes:

Obviously the “replica” will be fitted into a firearm, 22 magnum for being more precise.

Aniway I found out that the word for supressor is “schalldampfer”, but all I get with the altavista and google image search is modern firearms and motorbike silenciators.
I repeat any help will be very preciated.[/QUOTE]

Well, I wish you luck :slight_smile: - I haven’t been able to find much myself.

I did come across this rather interesting “schalldampfer” during my search though. Used by the German Army on an M-109 155mm self-propelled gun. I guess you could call it an “uber-schalldampfer” :slight_smile:


http://www.panzerbaer.de/images/bw_pzh_155mm_m109_schalldaempfer_wtd_meppen-001.JPG
http://special_ed_2.tripod.com/tanksilencer.htm

The Strategy Page Forum
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
It’s called a Schalldäempfer “Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)” link

gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.

The Strategy Page Forum
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

Shooter RE:What is this thing? 12/1/2004 12:33:47 AM
It is a “sound supressor” or silencer for arty training some place were they want to test fire it, but have local problems with noise. Those cans are shipping containers for helo engines and other parts that require inert gas to prevent long term storage problems. They have been welded together to reduce muzzle blast of the M-109 A6 in the picture. Which may or may not be a put up. I’ll bet it gets a 30DBa reduction in sound pressure! Now what do I win?

gf0012-aust bloody hell 12/3/2004 4:07:20 AM
the ferkin thing is a real price of kit for cryin out loud! It’s used by the german army for velocity and break tests. it also is designed to act as a suppressor. this thing first cropped up a year ago. there are numerous shots of it on some of the german armoured forums. (JED??). Mil Forums like The Basement have identified it in the past. it’s not photoshopped. It’s the real deal.

For Petes sake RE:bloody hell 12/8/2004 3:26:59 PM
GF and Shooter are right. I just Googled it, and it is used by the Germans. It makes sense because they have to operate in civilian areas, or very near to them because of the population density. Everyone jumps to the conclusion that photos can be easily faked… not true at all. In fact it’s bloody difficult, I’ve been working as a pro with Photoshop for eight years, and I have yet to perfect the “doctored” photo.

bluejacket RE:bloody hell 12/9/2004 12:16:24 AM
For Petes sake ---- Would you please post the links? I have some folks I would like to show that this is real.

[b]gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
It’s called a Schalldäempfer “Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)” link

gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.[/b]

Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:18:45 AM
Germany has a lot of environmental regulations that the US Army had to live with over the years. About the only area where unconstrained artillery firing was Grafenwohr, and in the 80s we were allowed to fire 363 days per year. No firing was allowed on Christmas and Easter Sunday. Since that time, and because the number of units firing declined greatly, more and more restrictions on firing have been put in place, though I do not have any details.

Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:22:42 AM
Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters. Germany is so urbanized in this regard that even where there are ranges and testign areas, they have a lot of neighbors.

gf0012-aust further to this - Desetmole 12/11/2004 7:00:55 AM
“Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters.” I’m not so sure it’s 800m. I have to go to Germany for work every 2 months or so - and there are big gaps in the middle. :wink: Typically I’m in Mannheim, Stuttgart, Ladenburg, Stuttgart. All of these have substantial acreage in between.

Desertmole RE:further to this - Desetmole 12/12/2004 12:33:07 PM

I saw a terrain study back in the 80s that said that was the average distance. I know it certainly seemed true in upper Bavaria where I was stationed at the time. In those areas, take a closer look at the countryside. Many of the seemingly clear areas will have small hamlets (maybe 6-8 houses and a barn or two) between the larger cities and towns.

#2

Well, I wish you luck :slight_smile: - I haven’t been able to find much myself.

I did come across this rather interesting “schalldampfer” during my search though. Used by the German Army on an M-109 155mm self-propelled gun. I guess you could call it an “uber-schalldampfer” :slight_smile:

George…:shock:…that is completely crazy !!!, it should go in my Panzer Projects and prototipes topic .

Okay P.K. I had a thought this morning, I recall an article printed in the magazine Guns&Ammo in the 70’s the topic was a garden silencer of shooting quietly in ones garden, (backyard for those of Colonial persuasion) I believe it was produced by Mauser, and was commonly available in the early part of the 20th century. It was a baffle type, so if you google up Mauser+silencer+suppressor+garden you may find info on it. It was then, and now the practice of the military utilizing commercially produced items off the shelf for military purposes, so you might get lucky…

I will give a try on that.

#3

Hrhrhrhr, this is so funny, no wonder we lost the wars with that kind of mental attitude :mrgreen:
There is no problem a german engineer can’t fix, however if there is no problem, go find one.

#4

OK, i’ll nibble.

Have you heard of photoshop?

This is complete rubbish. There is no way a silencer, even this big, can cope with a 155mm gun going off.

Not only that, it appears the muzzle is resting on the bottom of the gun hatch. Given the size of the hatch at the bottom one can surmise the holes in the middle and end of the silencer are at least as big. Or the shell would punch through the silencer. A hole that big would defeat the whole point of the silencer. Bearing in mind it is not a sealled hole at the bottome either.

Why only have the expansion chambers left and right? Looks like a penis and testicles, but doesn’t take in to acount the 360 degree nature of the expansion around the fired muzzle.

Why is it camoflaged when the stand is clearly not? Could it be that the cylinders bear a more than passing resembleence to the current Bundewher tankers cylinder? Which also has a similar inspection hatch?

The gun doesn’t seem to be fitted with the mandatory safety equipment for range fireing in Germany either, and if it requires chocking to prevent the base platform from moving it shouldn’t be firing either. The tracks on such SP Guns are more than adequate to prevent movement of such guns firing. Otherwise the Tracked SP gun would be worse than useless.

#5

Hmm guess we could only find out if we asked the WTD 91 in Meppen.

#6

1000yd, did you read my original post? According to members at the Strategy Page forum who checked into this, the photo is legitimate. Read some of the posts below.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117393&postcount=10

I did come across this rather interesting “schalldampfer” during my search though. Used by the German Army on an M-109 155mm self-propelled gun. I guess you could call it an “uber-schalldampfer” :slight_smile:


http://www.panzerbaer.de/images/bw_pzh_155mm_m109_schalldaempfer_wtd_meppen-001.JPG
http://special_ed_2.tripod.com/tanksilencer.htm

The Strategy Page Forum
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
It’s called a Schalldäempfer “Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)” link

gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.

The Strategy Page Forum
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

Cocoonboy RE:In all honesty… 11/28/2004 7:54:11 PM
It seems real. That’s not photoshop, I ran it through and all shadows are correct. Probably some form of computer that absorbs the blast, impact and so on. Either that or it’s some Larry Flynt stunt…

[b]Shooter RE:What is this thing? 12/1/2004 12:33:47 AM
It is a “sound supressor” or silencer for arty training some place were they want to test fire it, but have local problems with noise. Those cans are shipping containers for helo engines and other parts that require inert gas to prevent long term storage problems. They have been welded together to reduce muzzle blast of the M-109 A6 in the picture. Which may or may not be a put up. I’ll bet it gets a 30DBa reduction in sound pressure! Now what do I win?

gf0012-aust bloody hell 12/3/2004 4:07:20 AM
the ferkin thing is a real price of kit for cryin out loud! It’s used by the german army for velocity and break tests. it also is designed to act as a suppressor. this thing first cropped up a year ago. there are numerous shots of it on some of the german armoured forums. (JED??). Mil Forums like The Basement have identified it in the past. it’s not photoshopped. It’s the real deal.

For Petes sake RE:bloody hell 12/8/2004 3:26:59 PM
GF and Shooter are right. I just Googled it, and it is used by the Germans. It makes sense because they have to operate in civilian areas, or very near to them because of the population density. Everyone jumps to the conclusion that photos can be easily faked. not true at all. In fact it’s bloody difficult, I’ve been working as a pro with Photoshop for eight years, and I have yet to perfect the “doctored” photo.[/b]

bluejacket RE:bloody hell 12/9/2004 12:16:24 AM
For Petes sake ---- Would you please post the links? I have some folks I would like to show that this is real.

[b]gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
It’s called a Schalldäempfer “Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)” link

gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.[/b]

Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:18:45 AM
Germany has a lot of environmental regulations that the US Army had to live with over the years. About the only area where unconstrained artillery firing was Grafenwohr, and in the 80s we were allowed to fire 363 days per year. No firing was allowed on Christmas and Easter Sunday. Since that time, and because the number of units firing declined greatly, more and more restrictions on firing have been put in place, though I do not have any details.

Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:22:42 AM
Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters. Germany is so urbanized in this regard that even where there are ranges and testign areas, they have a lot of neighbors.

gf0012-aust further to this - Desetmole 12/11/2004 7:00:55 AM
“Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters.” I’m not so sure it’s 800m. I have to go to Germany for work every 2 months or so - and there are big gaps in the middle. :wink: Typically I’m in Mannheim, Stuttgart, Ladenburg, Stuttgart. All of these have substantial acreage in between.

Desertmole RE:further to this - Desetmole 12/12/2004 12:33:07 PM

I saw a terrain study back in the 80s that said that was the average distance. I know it certainly seemed true in upper Bavaria where I was stationed at the time. In those areas, take a closer look at the countryside. Many of the seemingly clear areas will have small hamlets (maybe 6-8 houses and a barn or two) between the larger cities and towns.

#7

And the British and US Armies Artillery (which use the same ranges as the Germans in Germany) are exempt the use of this particular equipment because?..

I’ll do some digging but in 4 years of working with an Arty Training establishment in Germany I never saw anything like this. And that includes a trip to the Rheinmetal factory itself (which in some sites is alledgedly the home of this beast, and photodated to my time at the unit).

For you Splinter

#8

But the WTD91 isn’t a training ground and it’s not related to Rheinmetal, it’s a bundeswehr weapons research center. Their fields of research includes for example acoustic measurements, permanent load tests, gun calibrations, high angle recovery shots etc. And if it’s meant as a silencer it would actually make sense over here in germany cause the neighbours here are usually pissed if they hear a distant bang all through the day or night and you always have neighbours in germany. Downtown Meppen is only 2km away from the artillery range.

#9

Thanks for the feedback Drake :slight_smile:

I guess that I could try to contact WTD 91 in Meppen to verify this.

Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26AGJAM654INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26AGHYF049INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26GQKFE250INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26EB7SN227INFOEN

http://www.cervus.de/publikationen/BuHiBaltimore01.pdf

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:N_UXBbxQXM8J:www.cervus.de/publikationen/BuHiBaltimore01.pdf+"ifl-muffler"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-47489.html

http://www.silencertests.com/albums/Oddities/Haubitzenschalldaempfer.jpg

http://www.silencertests.com/albums/Oddities/IFL_Schalldaempfer_schiesst.sized.jpg

http://www.silencertests.com/albums/Oddities/IFL_Schalldampfer.sized.jpg

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=6023&page=1

in the bottom left of the picture it says “Courtesy: pahlkötter” so i did a search for “pahlkötter” and found he’s the author of a book about modern armor? i don’t speak German so I’m not sure what the title says, buts here’s a picture of his book, I’d bet thats where the picture came from.

pahlkötter

#10

1000yds wrote:

Have you heard of photoshop?

This is complete rubbish. There is no way a silencer, even this big, can cope with a 155mm gun going off.

If you post idiocy, don’t get upset if you are seen as an idiot… I don’t.

If this works for the others, you should work for you. better read twice before accuse a Moderator of posting rubbish.

“Here endth the lesson.” :rolleyes: You owe an apology to George Eller.

#11

The title says:

Wheeled and tracked vehicles of the Bundeswehr in the '90ies

#12

If you post idiocy, don’t get upset if you are seen as an idiot… I don’t.

If this works for the others, you should work for you. better read twice before accuse a Moderator of posting rubbish.

“Here endth the lesson.” :rolleyes: You owe an apology to George Eller.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Panzerknacker :slight_smile:

The title says:

Wheeled and tracked vehicles of the Bundeswehr in the '90ies[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the translation Drake :slight_smile:

The post about that book was originally made in November 2002, so the pic by Manfred Pahlkötter of the Panzerhaubitze M109 with schalldampfer at WTD 91 in Meppen may have come from the book as Bob (CALLSIGN: Sohcahtoa) speculated at the ARMORAMA.com Forum. (The book dates to 1997).

It may have been a later development, but no later than 2002.

ARMORAMA.com Forum

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=6023&page=1

Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general. Hosted by: Jim Starkweather

Subject: Artillery silencer?!!?!!

Anthony Sadler (CALLSIGN: TheCrazedLog)
Posted: Friday, November 08, 2002 - 12:27 AM UTC


Appently, its at Meppan. Locals got annoyed with the constant test firing, so the germans made that…THING…

Bob (CALLSIGN: Sohcahtoa)
Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 12:00 PM UTC

in the bottom left of the picture it says “Courtesy: pahlkötter” so i did a search for “pahlkötter” and found he’s the author of a book about modern armor? i don’t speak German so I’m not sure what the title says, buts here’s a picture of his book, I’d bet thats where the picture came from.

Wheeled vehicles and tracked vehicles of the German Armed Forces in the 90 years (Hardcover) - 1997
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.amazon.de/Radfahrzeuge-Kettenfahrzeuge-Bundeswehr-90er-Jahren/dp/3613018470&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2B%22Manfred%2BPahlk%C3%B6tter%22%2BBOOKS%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall

Manfred Pahlkötter
http://images.google.com/images?q=+"Manfred+Pahlkötter"&as_st=y&ndsp=20&hl=en&start=0&sa=N

Pahlkötter
http://images.google.com/images?as_st=y&hl=en&q=+"Pahlkötter"&btnG=Search+Images

Panzerhaubitze M109
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerhaubitze_M109

M109 howitzer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer

#13

Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen - technical center WTD 91 of the German Bundeswehr - Noise suppression systems for German tank guns and artillery.

The latest news from the Rheinmetall group, 3 / 2000
Das Profil
Newsline
http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf

ALSO:

You will find a different view of the Pzh M109 155mm self-propelled gun with “schalldampfer” shown above left at the following website of The Range Meppen.

The Range Meppen
http://www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

In German with many color photographs, including a different view of the picture at top left.

Babel Fish translator to translate url from German to English - just paste the above url and set to translate to English
http://world.altavista.com/

http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=18392

Hello Jeff,
This picture is taken at Meppen in Germany, for some pictures and German text;

www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

Here is the WTD 91 (Wehr Technische Dienststelle 91) located which test all types of ammo. As mentioned in another post it is close by civilian population centers. The device is a gigantic silencer and in use with the artillery, not tanks. Meppen is also one of the places were it is allowed to fire the LKE II round. For example, the NL army did some test with the Germans here with the LKE II, firing rounds from -50 to +50 to see what the effects are. This was done without silencer.

#14

artillery silencers, what the hell is the point

#15

From what I gather overlord, the use of artillery noise suppression systems was limited in scope to a few problematic cases where noise was a constant factor with the local civilian population and where mobility was not demanded. The particular system shown in this thread is located at the Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen, Germany.

Partial Quote:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117565&postcount=13

http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf

Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen
MaK muffler system operational in Scotland

…Project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded, the aim of the study was to develop effective muffler systems for a few very problematic cases. This is why noise suppression systems are really only feasible for the stationary or quasi-stationary operation of tube weapons in the future, e.g. for testing weapons and munitions at military test centers."…

Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26AGJAM654INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26AGHYF049INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26GQKFE250INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26EB7SN227INFOEN

The Range Meppen
http://www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

In German with many color photographs.

Babel Fish translator to translate url from German to English - just paste the above url and set to translate to English
http://world.altavista.com/

JPEG image of article as translated from German to English with Babel Fish:







#16

From what I gather overlord, the use of artillery noise suppression systems was limited in scope to a few problematic cases where noise was a constant factor with the local civilian population and where mobility was not demanded.

That is the point indeed, To eliminate the big noise in order to not anoyinng civilians. Just think in the person/per squre meter relation in Europe is not small.l

Overlord, not everybody have the privilege to live in the open wide spaces of the Americas, as we do. :rolleyes:

#17

Most European ranges (Small Arms and Artillery) are close to population masses of one size or another.

As a rule, daily firings (from 0800 to 1700) are pretty much unregulated, except Sunday shoots. Night time firings are normally more strictly regulated.

Even in Europe, it is possible to have rangs that do not affect many citizens. Many British Ranges (for example go out to sea).

The ranges shown on the map above, are by far not the largest nor the closest to population centres. Even in Germany, and they are sure to be not amongst the most used. I can think of two places now that have both German and British Artillery firing daily.

I wonder if there is a natural requirement. Such as birds nesting or similar?

Or it could be technical. If the guns are required to fire for prolonged periods of time for testing and evaluation.

Despite your countries vast open spaces, I would beleive that most of your training areas and ranges aren’t that remote in themselves in comparison to European ones.

#18

The website of the Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen claims that WTD 91 covers an area of 200 square kilometres and is thus the largest “instrumented” firing range in Western Europe.

Also according to quote below, project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded, the aim of the study was to develop effective muffler systems for a few very problematic cases. This is why noise suppression systems are really only feasible for the stationary or quasi-stationary operation of tube weapons in the future, e.g. for testing weapons and munitions at military test centers."…

And according to Drake, downtown Meppen is only 2km away from the artillery range. Do you know of any artillery ranges that are closer to urban centers?

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26AGJAM654INFOEN

The Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) belongs to the BWB organization. It is located in Meppen (Lower Saxony) and was founded in 1957.

WTD 91 is the technology competence center for weapons and ammunition used by the Bundeswehr.

WTD 91 covers an area of 200 square kilometres and is thus the largest instrumented firing range in Western Europe.

The Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition

conducts experiments and analyses as well as integrated compliance demonstrations as defined by the CPM (Customer Product Management) procedural regulations;
manages research and technology (R&T) projects;
provides technical support for armaments projects;
and is responsible for the technical support of defense material during the in-service phase.
During the years since its establishment, the test center has grown into a multi-purpose institution for investigating, testing and evaluating:

weapons and weapon systems, any type of ammunition, rockets and missiles and UAVs;
optical and optronic equipment for reconnaissance and fire control, acoustic devices as well as meteorological and geodetic equipment; shelters and protective installations, matters related to armor protection.In the fields of ballistics, acoustics, optronics and meteorology, WTD 91 is the only center of competence within the armaments sector.

From what I gather overlord, the use of artillery noise suppression systems was limited in scope to a few problematic cases where noise was a constant factor with the local civilian population and where mobility was not demanded. The particular system shown in this thread is located at the Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen, Germany.

Partial Quote:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117565&postcount=13

http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf

Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen
MaK muffler system operational in Scotland

…Project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded, the aim of the study was to develop effective muffler systems for a few very problematic cases. This is why noise suppression systems are really only feasible for the stationary or quasi-stationary operation of tube weapons in the future, e.g. for testing weapons and munitions at military test centers."…

Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26AGJAM654INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26AGHYF049INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26GQKFE250INFOEN

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26EB7SN227INFOEN

The Range Meppen
http://www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

In German with many color photographs.

Babel Fish translator to translate url from German to English - just paste the above url and set to translate to English
http://world.altavista.com/

JPEG image of article as translated from German to English with Babel Fish:







-[/QUOTE]

#19

Wait out Georgeyboy, I’ll have to check the maps.

But given the fact you can drive from Sennelager town (civie part not the quarters) to one of the Gun positions in a few minutes, like wise on Bergan Hohne Ranges, actually, yes I do think there may be some other ranges that are as close as 2Km to the fireing points, or along the fireing trajectories.

I have mentioned in previous posts, I have actual experience of firing artillery on German ranges, so don’t go all churlish, just because I haven’t leapt into bed with you and agreed to the data and opinions that has been published.

For your information though Sennelager is half the area of Mappen, and Hohne is 140km2.

Incidentally the Artillery training area in Grafenwehr, used by the US, UK and Germans is 229Km2 But isn’t instrumented. Most instruments at these three sites are mobile and drive out when needed.

When you have finished your churlish strop, perhaps you can come back and I’ll tell you what is like actually driving around these ranges instead of viewing them on Googleearth.

Perhaps you’d like to know what these guns sound like, when you are 2km, 1km sod it, standing behind them putting the next round in through the hatch?

As I have said, there may be a reason for these mufflers that is natural (ie birds or similar nesting) or perhaps as Mappen is a testing ground they require to fire such guns for extended periods of time. Read my posts, I have pointed out that these ranges often shut down at night, except for some strictly regulated firings. You can’t test the effects of continuous firing, if the firing is not continuous.

You are aware, of course, that two kilometers can be too close for safe firing around civvies aren’t you? Both at the fireing end and at the impact end. Under the arch it is possible. strangely. And if they are behind the guns.

Like I say Georgey, I am not argueing this from the side of a internet dweller.

#20

Calm it down a tad here gentlemen - debate is fine, but keep it to debate. This applies to all of you. It’s getting nearly as bad as one of Chevan’s diatribes about Russia :wink: