Hard Facts about Communism/USSR.

Other Wars Cold War
#1

Communists weren’t patriots. They didn’t fight for liberty (independent Czechoslovakia), but for Stalin. Gottwald (if you’re so clever, you must know that person) was drunkard who served Stalin. I am ashamed for communsits, for that swines.

You also spoke about Slovak uprising. Slovak “national” uprishing wasn’t uprishing like other uprishings, but Slovakian fashists became bolsheviks when they knew Germans will fall. They always join stronger side.

No man- i speak not about who died fighting with NAzy.

What’s the difference to with bolsheviks or nazis…

#2

Jan tell me honestly - how many communists did you personally know in your life?
COz you so boldly assert -thay did not fight agains liberty?
Tell me one more thing- are you rich?

You also spoke about Slovak uprising. Slovak “national” uprishing wasn’t uprishing like other uprishings, but Slovakian fashists became bolsheviks when they knew Germans will fall. They always join stronger side.

So you think that the Slovaks who were real traitors?
They dastard not like the Czech , is this you rpoint?

#3

Personally? All our society is full of communists, so I meet them daily. I could tell you many things about “our” communists, but it would be very difficult to translate.

Slovakians really turned traitor us. When Germans were strongest then us, they joined them and became nationalists and later fashists. They were (are) real traitors.

#4

Really today in Czech repubilc so many communists;)
What a surprise, i didnot even guess :slight_smile:
So tell me in couple of words - why you so hate them so much ? May be the want to kill you?
Or send you to a Concentration camp?

Slovakians really turned traitor us. When Germans were strongest then us, they joined them and became nationalists and later fashists. They were (are) real traitors.

Well i/m understand why the Chohoslovakia were splited on two “independent” state;)
Coz your “patriots” hate each others;)
Sadly it was a great state though…

#5

Why?

  1. because of utopian ideology
  2. because of their acts (murders, collectivization, witch-hunt of people, gulags etc. it is so much)
  3. because they destroyed Europe, our culture, industry (American life style finished it) etc.
  4. they are not prohibited or punnished

Really today in Czech repubilc so many communists

Yes, here is so many communists.

#6

Is the social guaranties, equal possibilities ,free education and medicine service is this a utopia on you mind?

  1. because of their acts (murders, collectivization, witch-hunt of people, gulags etc. it is so much)

Oh year…so how many the Czech communists that you meet daily killed the people ?

  1. because they destroyed Europe, our culture, industry (American life style finished it) etc.

So you please make clear you point.
Is the American life style has finished YOUR culture or the communists around you?
Coz this is two great differences.
And how do you explain that early in the USSR we saw a lot of excelent Chehoslovakian and Polish films.
But today when you has been liberated for communists- we SEE NOTHING?
And YOUR television is full of foreign POP shit?
Where is YOUR national culture if you so FREE today like you say?

  1. they are not prohibited or punnished

punished for what - do they propogande the extremism or race hate? Do they kill today a peoples in Czech republic?

Yes, here is so many communists.

So you hate them ---- for nothing coz they simply dislike you , right?

#7
  1. Cancellation of class society and other communist nionsenses - it’s utopia
  2. Today not, but you probably don’t know anything about 50’s years in “democratic” czechoslovakia.

Is the American life style has finished YOUR culture or the communists around you?

Communists liqided patriotism and Czech culture. After 89. people doted on American life style - our televisions are a full of foreign POP shit! Today aou people can’t use czech language, because they known only lousy words like a “ok, fuck, shit, good, cool”, they dosn’t know Czech orthography. These factors are in our society because of communsit control until 1989.

Where is YOUR national culture if you so FREE today like you say?

We are free?! It’s relative.

Punnish for what? For “liberation”, 41 years of lack of freedom, collectivisation, witch-hunt of not communist people, executed humans, censorship… If you doesn’t know about reality in eastern block, don’t discuss about communism.

#8

The class devision is not utopia.
This was may be the one of few RIGHT things that Carl Marx has invented in 19 centure.
The class devision is the obvious thing Jan.
True… the bolshevick via their unhuman methouds have compromated this concept.
However the class struggle is the very accurate term for the actual relations of the Richs and Poors( ot betwen the masters and its workers)

  1. Today not, but you probably don’t know anything about 50’s years in “democratic” czechoslovakia.

Probably you right.I know a not much about Chehoslovakia.
But at least i know for sure - in the soviet block the Chehoslovakia played the great and importaint economical and military role.
It was a industry and military producer.
Do you even know that the Czech produced the manies of kinds of the modern wearpons including the licensed Soviet aircrafts.
The Czech motorcycle Jawa was a one of the best in the USSR.So indeed communist made a lot of the creating the great industry in Chehoslovakia.

Communists liqided patriotism and Czech culture. After 89. people doted on American life style - our televisions are a full of foreign POP shit! Today aou people can’t use czech language, because they known only lousy words like a “ok, fuck, shit, good, cool”, they dosn’t know Czech orthography. These factors are in our society because of communsit control until 1989.

He he he.
Americans finished your Language and culture?:wink:
And who did help them today - YOUR DEMOCRATS-PATRIOTS.Not communists.
So relax and enjoy;)
YOUR democrats has finished you country Chehoslovakia.They has teared it into pieces.

We are free?! It’s relative.

Punnish for what? For “liberation”, 41 years of lack of freedom, collectivisation, witch-hunt of not communist people, executed humans, censorship… If you doesn’t know about reality in eastern block, don’t discuss about communism.

now you will tell me about realities in Eastern block:)
That’s fun Jan.
I lived in USSR and I KNOW for sure that the DDR and Chehoslovakia was the BEST countries in the whole soviet block where the life level was much higher then in the USSR.
Those both states had no crisis like the Poland or Romanian had in 1980-yy.
So i would not portray on you rplace the terrible conditions in the Eastern block.:wink:
You really have not seen the bad reality.

#9

Stratification of the population is sole possibility.

And who did help them today - YOUR DEMOCRATS-PATRIOTS.Not communists.

Our current politicans are (exservice) communists who work only for money, not for our country.

I lived in USSR and I KNOW for sure that the DDR and Chehoslovakia was the BEST countries in the whole soviet block where the life level was much higher then in the USSR.

Yeah, but in prewar times was a life level very higher than in age of communists. We were advanced like a France, GB and other western states. Collectivisation destroyed agronomy in all eastern block, but in such advanced country as Czechoslovakia it was catastrophe.

You really have not seen the bad reality.

I know about the bas reality’ That’s just it why comunists must be punnished.

#10

But your people have voted for them- so why is guit that such bastards are in a power;)
Righ ,thaey have no political convictions, and want just a money and power.
But why do you want to punish not them , but simple peoples around you who are not in the power but who believe in the equal of social rights and its ideals?They are at least honest and didnot changed their convictions in aim to get the power.
No you see while you want to punish commi - the dastard “democrats” are much worsen then them.

Yeah, but in prewar times was a life level very higher than in age of communists. We were advanced like a France, GB and other western states. Collectivisation destroyed agronomy in all eastern block, but in such advanced country as Czechoslovakia it was catastrophe.

This is a old fary tells of the YOUR nationalist.The simular tells i heared from Russian nationalist - the Tsar Russian was a greates state in the world that evil commies have destroyed.
Indeed the Czechoslovakia was the greates East European state even during the Soviet era.
The communists at least saved the Czehoslovakia.
The Democrat have teared it into the two pieces.
So lucky you now?:wink:
the Czech and Slovakian republic is nothing with comparition with Britain and France.
And you are wrong about collectivisation.
Althought collectivisation in 1930 has began from nasty things - this let the USSR to create the very power heavy industry that later has SAVED our state from the GErmans invasion (coz we have really mass productions of aircraft ,tanls and artillery).
Besides i know for the sure that there were as bad collective farmers as the enough succesfull ones.All depends form a personal management.

I know about the bas reality’ That’s just it why comunists must be punnished.

Yea … you punish the simple communist while YOU dastard “democrats” enjoy the their power now.
Go on dude;)

#11

Those who can win democratic elections are to possess ample financial, media and often administrative resources.
Actually in post-communist states the only candidates who have possessed all these things are former communist party bureaucrats and security service officers. So

This is a old fary tells of the YOUR nationalist.Indeed the Czechoslovakia was the greates East European state even during the Soviet era.
The communists at least saved the Czehoslovakia.
The Democrat have teared it into the two pieces.

It is just the evidence that multinational states collapse as a rule.

And you are wrong about collectivisation.
Althought collectivisation in 1930 has began from nasty things - this let the USSR to create the very power heavy industry that later has SAVED our state from the GErmans invasion (coz we have really mass productions of aircraft ,tanls and artillery).
Besides i know for the sure that there were as bad collective farmers as the enough succesfull ones.All depends form a personal management.

It is not true. Collectivisation in 1930 was the mere liquidation of sound peasants who can potentially oppose to the Soviets. But it was not the essential source for financing the creation of the powerful heavy industry.

The main sources were the export of mineral resources and the free slave labour of millions of Gulag prisoners

Yea … you punish the simple communist while YOU dastard “democrats” enjoy the their power now.
Go on dude;)

The most of the democrats in the Eastern Europe are former communists.
They just changed their image according to the global fashion. I would not speak about simple communits, I have not heard about activities of organisations that claim to be communist in the Czech Republic.

#12

So it right be to PUNISH them - the former communists who today look as democrats, right?
Not the simple peoples ( mostly oldest) who still believe in the communist ideals

It is just the evidence that multinational states collapse as a rule.

Yea… so look for the USA man.
There live over 250++ nationalities today . Strange why it did not collapes;)
The “rule” is the ONLY for the dastard greedy nationalist leaders who want a more power for themself. But not for the normal states.

It is not true. Collectivisation in 1930 was the mere liquidation of sound peasants who can potentially oppose to the Soviets. But it was not the essential source for financing the creation of the powerful heavy industry.

The main sources were the export of mineral resources and the free slave labour of millions of Gulag prisoners

No again.
The primary aim of collectivisation was to get the MONEY and products for the INDUSTRIALISTION.
And you know it Kato.Coz the first positive resault of the collectivisation in Ukraine was Donbass, Dneproges, a hundreds of newest Greats plants and ets .

The most of the democrats in the Eastern Europe are former communists.
They just changed their image according to the global fashion. I would not speak about simple communits, I have not heard about activities of organisations that claim to be communist in the Czech Republic.

Well so What do communist Jan mean in Czech republic in this way?

#13

So it right be to PUNISH them - the former communists who today look as democrats, right?
Not the simple peoples ( mostly oldest) who still believe in the communist ideals

I don’t think there are persons (especially oldest) who still believe in the communist ideals in the Czech republic. It is the case with the former republics of the USSR but this phenomenon will soon disappear. Communism is dead.

#14

After collectivisation the USSR turned from the main exporter of agricultural products into main importer of them. So any strategic benefits are very dubious. Besides the profits from the export of some potatoes and wheat is miserable in comparison with the export of mineral resources.

Dneproges, a hundreds of newest Greats plants were mainly built by slaves from Gulags and it reduced the expenses greatly.

#15

Kato, the collectivization actually increased the productivity of agriculture in USSR. At expences of other things amongst which are the lives.

1928 - 470 grain Kg/year; produced by 50 mill. pesants.
1937 - 430 grain Kg/year; produced by 30 mill. pesants.

[INDENT]source: “Драма самоуничтожения”, Вадим Кожинов.
“Но вернемся во вторую половину 1930-х годов. Выше было сказано о тогдашнем впечатляющем сдвиге в сфере промышленности. В сельском хозяйстве дело обстояло гораздо скромнее, —уже в силу изложенных только что причин (промышленность зависит от местоположения страны в значительно меньшей степени, чем сельское хозяйство). И в последнее время постоянно высказывается мнение, что сельское хозяйство в тот период было менее эффективным, чем в нэповское время, ибо население росло быстрее, чем урожаи зерновых. Так, по подсчетам Л.А.Гордона и Э.В.Кло-пова. на душу населения в 1928 году приходилось 470 кг зерна (на год), а в 1938-м — 430 кг. Однако эти стремящиеся к объективности авторы тут же сообщают, что в первом случае перед нами результат труда “50—55 млн. крестьян-единоличников”, а во втором — всего “30—35 млн. колхозников и рабочих совхозов” (цитата по “Гордон Л.А, Клопов Э.В. Что это было? Размышления о предпосылках и итогах того, что случилось с нами в 30— 40-е годы.—М.,1989,с.б4.”, с.80), — то есть на 40% меньше.”[/INDENT]

The point is that the harvest prior to collectivization was a little bigger, but it was generated by many more people. So after collectivization an average peasnt produced almost 2 times more grain. There was a shift in the population - people moved into towns or were forcibly relocated into other areas to work in the industry.

#16

I don’t think one should take Soviet statistics as credible one. The fact is that
the Soviet Union was not able to satisfy its own needs in food-stuffs in the following decades after collectivisation.

#17

Again wrong Kato.
Listen what tells Egorka.
The collective farms in the late of the 1930 were ALREADY able to feed the whole USSR WITHOUT import.
Th new soviet cities population rised by very greats temps and the state needs a more agricalture products that could provide ONLY collective farm ( that has began to use the first tractors in that period).
So the increase of the Soviet Industry was possible ONLY due to Collectivisation - coz the USSR had simply no any investitions from the West for this.
The ONLY in the 1970 USSR has begin the export of the Canadian wheats coz the different economical reasons - it was cheaper to buy the whear then to increase the own production that still much uneffective
As you know the climate of the USSR is not the so good as the Canadian and American one.
And you NEVER WILL GET the equal harvest per unit of square in for instance Texas and in Kuban.
The collectivisation WAS the SINGLE sourse of the USSR to creat the OWN industry and develop own resources i that time.

Dneproges, a hundreds of newest Greats plants were mainly built by slaves from Gulags and it reduced the expenses greatly.

There is no and NEVER Gulag Slave in Ukraine Kato.
The GULAG camps was placed in Syberia and Soviet Far East ( Kolima) .ANd the total maximum quantity of prisoners never Iexceeded the 3 mln of people at one time. ( i.e. no more 1,5% of population)
Sure they work hard -mostly for the stockpiling of wood.

#18

Again wrong Kato.
Listen what tells Egorka.
The collective farms in the late of the 1930 were ALREADY able to feed the whole USSR WITHOUT import.
Th new soviet cities population rised by very greats temps and the state needs a more agricalture products that could provide ONLY collective farm ( that has began to use the first tractors in that period).

The collective farms are the best examples of agricultural failures. The backward tzar Russia had been one of the main exporter of agricultural goods in the world without any tractors or other vehicles. There were rediculous Soviet campaigns when city dwellers were forced to work on the fields as farmers in to gather at least some harvest.

So the increase of the Soviet Industry was possible ONLY due to Collectivisation - coz the USSR had simply no any investitions from the West for this. The collectivisation WAS the SINGLE sourse of the USSR to creat the OWN industry and develop own resources i that time.

I don’t see connections between the destruction of agriculture with the mass killing of peasants and development of industry

The ONLY in the 1970 USSR has begin the export of the Canadian wheats coz the different economical reasons - it was cheaper to buy the whear then to increase the own production that still much uneffective
As you know the climate of the USSR is not the so good as the Canadian and American one.

I don’t agree. Canada has suitable climate for agriculture only in the regions near the US border. The US climate with its annual hurricanes leaves much to be desired for agriculture as well while the USSR had Ukraine, Belarus, European Russia, Kuban with excellent climate The Soviet problems was in collectivisations, mass murders of farmers, poor business management.

And you NEVER WILL GET the equal harvest per unit of square in for instance Texas and in Kuban.

Don’t be pessimistic. It is not the fault of weather or climate.

#19

IThe stats are OK in this respect.
And again I said about efficiency, not about brutto production.
The efficiency of collectivised agricultural sector increased by factor 2.
[INDENT]Это означает, что производительность труда выросла весьма значительно: на одного работающего в 1928 году пришлось 1,4 тонны зерна, а в 1938-м —2,4 тонны. Разумеется, это было немного в сравнении со странами с более “благополучным” сельским хозяйством. Но и говорить об “упадке” сельского хозяйства в это время (как многие сейчас делают) нет оснований, ибо один работающий производилв 1938 году на 70% больше зерна, чем в 1928-м.[/INDENT]

And BTW USSR exported 2 mill. tonns of grain in 1940.

[INDENT][b]“Война и геополитика”. Кожинов Вадим Валерьянович.[/b]
В высшей степени наглядно предстает геополитическая сущность войны в составленных накануне нее, 23 мая 1941 года, «Общих указаниях группе сельского хозяйства экономической организации «Ост«» (то есть «Восток»). Одно из главных «общихправил» сформулировано так:

«Производство продовольствия в России на длительное время включить в европейскую систему», ибо «Западная и Северная Европа голодает... Германия и Англия (да, и Англия! — В. К.)...нуждаются в ввозе продуктов питания», а между тем «Россия поставляет только зерно, не более 2 млн. тонн в год... (Наш урожай 1940 года — 95,6 млн. тонн. — В. К.). Таким образом, определяются основные направления решения проблемы высвобождения избытков продуктов русского сельского хозяйства для Европы (заметим: Европы в целом! — В. К.)... Внутреннее потребление России... должно быть снижено настолько, чтобы образовались необходимые излишки для вывоза» (цит. по кн.: «Преступные цели гитлеровской Германии в войне против Советского Союза. Документы, материалы. М.1987, с. 250, 251).[/INDENT]
#20

The weather plays a paramount role in agriculture… :roll:
It make a bit of difference if you collect 1 or 2 harvests per year…