I thank The British Army did a good job of holding the Axis Powers off. Then when the Soviet Union and U.S.A joined they had allies. Good thing that Britian didn’t get over taken by the Axis Powers.
Might have been a little tricky…if Operation Dynamo had failed. Still, there was the Channel and the RN.
Churchill, refers to the ‘Few’, but if you look at the preperaions for Operation Sea Lion, it will become obvious that even if the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain, the RN would have maced the german invasion force (yet another wonderful, sweeping statement!:D)
Despite the magnificent moment in the film Battle of Britain when Goering ?stands on the cliff top and gives up and they start packing up the invasion barges (the grunts, not fat Goering), the Germans were probably on a hiding to nothing if they tried it.
I can’t find an internet source on a quick search and I can’t remember my book source(s) (the slab in the beer fridge is getting smaller :D), but my readings are that in reality Hitler was never wholly committed to Sea Lion and to some extent let his subordinates play with it to keep them occupied. (How’s that for another wonderful, sweeping statement? 
)
What do you mean as holding Germans off?
The Britain was practically in isolation after the 1940 and Hitler didn’t considered the UK as “danger enemy”. He had feels enough power to begin the new war with USSR.
TIll the stupid Japanes has forced the USA to joine the war the Britain could nothing did agains Germany.
Cheers.
Apart from bombing them. Which is a whole other topic 
British forces were fighting German, Italian http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/scrapiron/index.html and Vichy French http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/damascus/index.html forces with some success in North Africa and the Middle East before the stupid Japanese (stupidly thinking that they could (a) beat America militarily and (b) beat American industrially and, most stupidly of all (c) that the American government and people wouldn’t be so seriously upset by the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor that they wouldn’t rest until Japan was defeated) got involved.
British forces fought in Greece http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/greatrisk/index.html early in 1941, which was a spectacular failure largely due to Churchill’s great inability to get his Victorian mind around the fact that air power could actually decide a campaign, which not much later led to him losing the Repulse and Prince of Wales to the Japanese in Malayan waters after having learnt nothing from Greece or even from Taranto in November 1940 when outdated British Swordfish planes sunk several Italian capital ships. After Greece the British forces fought in Crete, where the Germans also won with German paratroopers but at such a cost that the Germans resolved never to try a large paratrooper assault again.
The British also defeated the Italians and Germans in North Africa, although the Germans came back with later attacks before eventually being defeated.
Britain was also fighting a constant naval war against Germany in various seas and oceans.
All this happened before Germany attacked Russia on 22 June 1941.
Chevan, I must ask this question of you - Are you delibrately trying to be contorversial, or do you truly believe what you are saying?
Hi,
I agree with you, they did. Just remember, that UK had not been a primary goal for Germany and Sea Lion was a bluff. Complete defeat of British empier with subsequent dissolution of it, was not in Hitlers interest as he said him self.
Accordingly, the british actions were not aimed at actual defeat of Germany, but, as you rightfully put it, at holding them off.
Sure, if UK would became Germany’s vasal state in 1940, the USSR’s chances of winning whould be very grim.
Chevan,
I think you will find that nazi Germany HAD prepared to invade the UK. Even to the point of preparing lists of those to be “interned”. Much propaganda was made of the occupation of the Channel Islands, with pictures of German troops stood with iconic British symbols.
ie the bobby helping them find their way (staged) and many others such as the Red phone boxes. Not so much the French street names, etc.
Hitler wanted UK out of it. Through either diplomacy or invasion. Britain was certainly NOT out of it, nor was it in isolation. Remember we had the Commonwealth, all of which were mobilised or mobilising.
Prior to the Americans joining battle, they had started helping Britain logistically (although not for free).
Also, bear in mind, if Britian was in such a bad shape and in-effectual…
Operation Barbarossa began on 22 June 1941, Great Britain sent the first Artic Convoy in support of Russia on the 21 August 1941, a mere two months later.
Operation Dervish was the first of the Arctic Convoys of World War II by which the Western Allies supplied material material aid to the Soviet Union in its fight with Nazi Germany. The Convoy sailed from Hvalfiourdur Iceland on 21 August 1941 and arrived at Archangelsk on 31 August 1941.
The convoy consisted of 6 merchant ships loaded with raw materials and crated Hawker Hurricane fighter planes. escorted by Destroyers HMS Electra (H27), HMS Active and HMS Impulsive, 3 minesweepers and 3 anti-submarine trawlers. Distant cover of cruiser HMS Shropshire and destroyers HMS Matabele, HMS Punjabi and HMS Somali.
At the same time the aircraft carrier HMS Argus, delivered some Hurricanes to Murmansk. All ships arrived safely
These convoys were all British, until the 4th convoy, PQ-3 (PQ = Outgoing to Russia, QP = going home) when two Panamanian ships joined them. The Panamanians, were a common feature in the Convoys, although often only 2 - 4 in number. Honduran and Polish ships also sailed in the Convoys. The Panama and Honduran registered ships had some American crewmen on board.
The first Russian ships (four) joined the convoys with PQ-4, the fifth convoy on 17 Nov 1941.
The earliest mention of Americans was PQ-13, unless someone knows better.
In the Atlantic by June 41, the U-Boat “happy time” was over, and the U Boat losses were going up and up, due to the British.
Anyway, Chevan, any proof of your claims that Britain was isolated or not a threat to Germany?
to 1000ydstare:
You sound so confident. Good for you! Just for your info, Mr. Basil Liddell Hart did not share your opinion.
Guess whose opinion I share yours or Hart’s?
Operation Sea Lion was not entirely a bluff. However, Hitler was impatient to expedite his plans for the conquest of Russia. Within his own foolish ideas of Aryanism, he saw the British as being of ‘noble’ stock, by his standards and, thus, he was never truly committed to the conquest of Britain in as much as he was of Russia. If he could have pulled it off,though, he would have done.
In effect he considered the operations against Britain as a distraction and a waste of men and materiel. Particularly as his air forces were suffering from a high attrition rate in the Battle of Britain, and the results of this would have an adverse affect on his Russian campaign.
The only way Hitler could have defeated Britain, would have been to have starved it into submission by use of his U-Boot fleet, which was too small in the early stages of the war. To have built up his U-Boot fleet to a capacity which would have enabled him to defeat Britain at that time, he would have had to have had the defeat of Britain as a major objective, and forget his ambitions in the East until that had been achieved. This would have taken some time and by the time he could have achieved this, if at all, the war would probably have taken on an entirely different shape.
As I have previously commented, elsewhere, Hitler was a man in a hurry, his eyes and mind on Russia. He went to war before his forces were ready. He had expanded his forces in breadth but not in depth relying on the doctrine of Blitzkrieg to achieve his aims.
After Dunkirk, Britain’s goal was always the defeat of germany.
As for Britain becoming a Vasal state. That would never have happened. There would have been no armistice. Churchill was already planning to withdraw his government to the colonies, and to continue the war using those forces available to him i.e. Imperial troops. No doubt he would have made further
land-lease/lend-lease deals with the US in order to equip such forces. In the meantime Stalin would have been building up his forces and would have been ready to defend Russia in a war with Hitler, if not invade Germany.
Britain, as with many other countries, was unprepared for this war. It had spent much of the two previous decades disarming in the belief that after the stalemate and horror of the trenches of WW1 no European country would want another war. That does not mean that Britain would have remained a pushover indefinately. If the Japanese had not entered the war, then Britain would have had greater manpower and material resources to fight in the European/Mediteranian theatre.
A final note. Even though Britain’s resources were extremely overstretched when Russia was invaded, it was still able to send assistance by way of Arctic convoys containing materiel(as already mentioned by 1000 Y.S.).
Soory guys i had no intention to insult somebodie’s national feelings.
Certainly we all know the Britain played very importain role in the crushing the Germany.
May be i just misunderstood this thread. But i will tell what i did mean.
If i understood the thread right: the Britain hold of the Germany i/e/ tied its with war.
Was German agression be stopped by Britain in 1940-41?
I think No.
This all is true Rising Sun,
But the fact that Hitler took the 2 million of soldiers and sended them to the East just proved that He didn’t feared the Britain in 1940-41.The British-Germany war din’t worry And he began the new great compaign to the USSR.( in 1941 he could not imagine that USA will entered the war against him).
Cheers.
You know pdf the British bombing compain of Germany was mostly unsuccesful toll the arriving the 8-air army of USAAF in 1942. And even after this they need a whole year to develop the successfull tactic of bombing.
ydstare.
Even the all british historian which i have read (Fuller, Bevoor, Clark) had agreeable the poin the German’s Sea Lion plan was UNREAL becouse the Germany had not enought transport ships and even if they had it they would be inevitable sinked by Roal fleet in La -mansh.
All what Hitler really wanted - the terrorizing of Britain via the bombing and isolated them.( And he practicaly done it in the 1941)
Certainly he could not to get out the Britain from the war by bombing but He absolutly don’t considered seriously the British ability to defeat him in 1940-41.
Why ?
Becouse the Britain had a smallest infantry army in the islands. He boldly began the new Crusade to the East. Certainly Britain was able to bother him in the North Africa and Roal fleet could make the certain problems but Kringsmarine alredy in 1940 showed him its power - by the sinking the british ship in Scapa-Flou.
He was sure the Kringsmarine could able to neutralize the Roal fleet enough good.
And honestly speaking the Kringsmarine did its work excellent - in the 1942 they sended to the bottom a crazy quantity of allie’s transports.( about 30% of overall were sinked).
Hitler wanted UK out of it. Through either diplomacy or invasion. Britain was certainly NOT out of it, nor was it in isolation. Remember we had the Commonwealth, all of which were mobilised or mobilising.
I know it , but neither Commonwealth could stop the new Hitler’s agression in 1941.
Prior to the Americans joining battle, they had started helping Britain logistically (although not for free).
Also, bear in mind, if Britian was in such a bad shape and in-effectual…
Operation Barbarossa began on 22 June 1941, Great Britain sent the first Artic Convoy in support of Russia on the 21 August 1941, a mere two months later.
These convoys were all British, until the 4th convoy, PQ-3 (PQ = Outgoing to Russia, QP = going home) when two Panamanian ships joined them. The Panamanians, were a common feature in the Convoys, although often only 2 - 4 in number. Honduran and Polish ships also sailed in the Convoys. The Panama and Honduran registered ships had some American crewmen on board.
The first Russian ships (four) joined the convoys with PQ-4, the fifth convoy on 17 Nov 1941.
The earliest mention of Americans was PQ-13, unless someone knows better.
In the Atlantic by June 41, the U-Boat “happy time” was over, and the U Boat losses were going up and up, due to the British.
But the British transport loses were going up and up also till the USA take the active participation to destroy the Uboats.Remember the sadly known PQ-17 which was practically full sinked in 1942.
The happy time of Kringsmarine were still not ended;)
Anyway, Chevan, any proof of your claims that Britain was isolated or not a threat to Germany?
See above please.
In 1941 Hitler had reached all that he wanted from Britain:
Neither Roal Fleet, nor North African troops, nor Britains bombers didn’t create a big problems for him to began the new war in the East.
Later in 1943 (due to USA involving) the Gernmany had losed the “resource competition” with allies.
Thus, my point is only coalition of states (OUR coalition) was able to “hold them off”
Cheers.
The combined Allied forces didn’t merely ‘hold them off’, they defeated germany.
Egorka, everyone should sound confident in what they write… Otherwise it is hogwash.
Not sure exactly which theories of Basil Liddell Hart’s you are on about, but they are merely his opinions. These are merely mine. Do YOU have opinions or theories or do you just spout other peoples?
Hitler’s initial warning order given on 16 July 1940 reflected the most current thinking at that time. In it he also set out the revised (from a previous orde in 1939) aims. Of particular note is the following line, it was the first line of the order. (with the exception of any formal addresses, etc.)
“I have decided to prepare a landing operation against England, and if necessary to carry it out”.
Much is made of the Battle of Britain. This was phase A of the Invasion of Britain. Britain offered a few challenges not faced by the German war machine’s Blitzkrieg.
First off, we are surrounded by a big moat… ie the Channel.
This offered us a massive defensive wall, regardless of extra defences. To move men across this they needed Landing Craft and ships. These ships WERE found. If Britain was not (at some point) a valid target, why would they amass this group of ships that could have been used else where, or the matierials for other things.
The Luftwaffe expected an easy win, and to be fair may well have got one, had they not also had the channel to contend with also. Once the the RAF was neutralised, the plan was to hammer every thing in the channel to allow the invasion ships to cross. Including the sweeping of British mines, and the insertion of German mines to make a “corridor” they could sail up and down with impunity, with air cover.
As others have mentioned, Britain was indeed a target, but was a target of oppurtunity. The oportunity presented itself, and was taken. When time ran out, the Nazis attempted to neutralise Britain in order to prevent their interference. In is highly likely that had Russia been finished off, Op Sea Lion 2, would have been executed, originally penned in for Spring 1941. The plan was only written off in 1943. By which point, the Germans were certainly on the hop.
That many in the German forces were releived taht the Op was postponed is undoubted. The German Navy, unable to operate U-Boats in the shallow waters of the South of Britain, and most of its Surface Navy smashed up in the Norway invasion didn’t think it could do the job. The French Navy was a big part of the plan, luckily the Royal Navy sank the navy, in a terrible yet essential attack at Mers-el-Kebir, whilst they were cooped up at anchor.
The Army was similary in a bad way. The Paratroopers earmarked for the invasion, were struggling to reconstitute after the invasion of the Netherlands.
The British mobilised EVERYTHING including all reserves of aircraft, sped up production and tested RADAR in the field. This was partly because they believed that the Luftwaffe outnumbered them more than they actualy did. (Faulty intelligence or good PR? 
)
The bombing of cities is a totally different.
The Germans had the RAF on the run up till Aug 1940. Had they continued with their current plans of hitting RAF installations and other defences they could have smashed the RAF. Believing the RAF was much stronger than it was at the time, they switched to the bombing of the RAF support. THe first raids were on the strategic installations such as aircraft factories and dockyards in order to deny the replacements the RAF required (required more urgently than the Germans knew).
In late August 1940 the Luftwaffe attacked industrial targets in Birmingham and Liverpool.
The start of the “Blitz” on the civialian populace.
On 24 August 1940, during a raid on Thames Haven, some German aircraft strayed over London and dropped bombs in the east and northeast parts of the city, Bethnal Green, Hackney, Islington, Tottenham and Finchley.
This prompted the British to mount a retaliatory raid on Berlin the next night with bombs falling in Kreuzberg and Wedding. Hitler was said to be furious and on 5 September issued a directive
“… for disruptive attacks on the population and air defences of major British cities, including London, by day and night”
Goerings oft misquoted boast…
“The Ruhr will not be subjected to a single bomb. If an enemy bomber reaches the Ruhr, my name is not Hermann Göring: you can call me Meier!” (“Meier” [Meierei = dairy-farm] common German surname, analogous to the English “Smith”.)
Berlin’s air raid sirens were sonn bitterly known as “Meier’s trumpets”, or “Meier’s hunting horns.”
The Luftwaffe began day and night attacks on British cities, concentrating on London. This relieved the pressure on the RAF’s airfields, allowing the RAF to build up again. The factories and other logistical support were also given time to disperse (with parts being made in barns, etc) and continue the constrution of vital war machines.
During November 1940 to February 1941, the Luftwaffe attacked industrial and port cities. Targets included Coventry, Southampton, Birmingham, Liverpool, Bristol, Swindon, Plymouth, Cardiff, Manchester, Sheffield, Portsmouth, and Avonmouth.
British defences were still fairly weak, and German losses were sustainable — only 75 aircraft during these four months. However, the German High Command was becoming unconvinced that the bombing would make possible the invasion of Britain, as the RAF remained effective.
Preparations were under way for Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union, which to Hitler had higher priority than defeating Britain. The window of oppurtunity for the invasion for Britian was closing. Bararossa was taking the lead.
Hitler issued a directive on 6 February ordering the Luftwaffe to concentrate its efforts on ports, notably Plymouth, Portsmouth, Bristol and Avonmouth, Swansea, Liverpool, Belfast, Clydebank, Hull, Sunderland, and Newcastle. Between 19 February and 12 May, Germany mounted 46 attacks against those cities, with only seven directed against London, Birmingham, Coventry, and Nottingham. This was to suppor Grand Admiral Erich Raeder’s Kriegsmarine in the Battle of the Atlantic.
By this time also, the effort was aimed as much against civilians as against industrial targets, air raids were intended to provoke terror.
Other terror raids included the Baedeker Blitz. So called because the targets were chosen (it is believed) from the cities that had “three stars or more” in the “German Baedeker Tourist Guide to Britain”. They were a response to response to the bombing of the Hanseatic League city of Lübeck during the night from 28/29 March 1942. The Hanseatic League was a guild of traders and money counters during the 17thC, quite important in Germanys history.
These raids were purely for revenge, and the Luftwaffe suffered heavy losses for minimal return.
Basically at NO point during Op Barbarossa was Britian isolated. The Germans attempted, hard, to do so with the Wolf Packs of the Atlantic and constant bombing. But in effect Britain was still fighting, and making a difference.
Whilst the Russians absorbed massive quantities of Manpower and Land matierial, the British constantly took on the German Navies. Air Power was split between the two, although the Russians took the lions share.
Whilst invasion may well have been out of the window, esp when the Eastern Offensive began, it was most definitily on the table after the fall of France.
Basically Hitler didn’t have a clue what he was doing, and was running from window to window like a small child in sweet store demanding that one and that one. Substansive reserves of aircraft were mobilised for his revenge attacks on Britian.
Most of these seem to have been ordered whilst he was climbing the walls over the fact that the British would dare/manage to bomb some place or other in Germany.
Interesting to note. Right up to the start of WW2, when Britain entered Goering believed the RAF to be too strong for his Luftwaffe. He also tried to talk Hitler out of Barbarossa. Each time though, he through his full effort in to bringing about victory, usualy with outlandish promises such as the resupply of Stalingrad trapped German troops by air!! Not to mention his penchant for stealling finery from all around Europe.
Two days prior to his own suicide, Hitler ordered Goering to be murdered, with his family including his daughter (to whom Hitler was Godfather). The order was never carried out. Possibly it was a revenge for Goering, making plans to take command of the Reich, or Berlin as that was all that was left of it.
Well thanks ydstare for the detailed infor about Britis ww2 history.
If once you will write the own book i will first who buy it;)
Shortly speaking i don’t see the reasons not agree with you.
Just one amplification. I have mean the period of 1940-1941 befor the invasion at the USSR. i.e. when the British-Cermany war take the place.
Basically at NO point during Op Barbarossa was Britian isolated. The Germans attempted, hard, to do so with the Wolf Packs of the Atlantic and constant bombing. But in effect Britain was still fighting, and making a difference.
Whilst the Russians absorbed massive quantities of Manpower and Land matierial, the British constantly took on the German Navies. Air Power was split between the two, although the Russians took the lions share
I/m not deny the Britain made a lot of problem for Hitler during Barbarossa.
My point before the Soviet-German war had begin Britain was not able to stop Germany or “Hold them off” in war sence. The Britain resistense was too weak tha the Hitler didn’t consider it as a real threat. ( In 1941 !!!).
Certainly he hoped to finish USSR till the winter of 1941, but he WAS ABSOLUTLY SURE that in that period (summer-winter) Britain could nothing did against Germany.( and he was right).
After the Barbarossa begin and USA joined to the war the situation had changed radically.
It strikes me he attempted two schemes that were unlikely to pay off.
In both cases he was thwarted by the environment, as much as the forces that opposed him.
To invade Britain, the succesful, continued and safe transit across the channel, both at the initial invasion and for a long time after would have been crucial and difficult to achieve.
To invade Russia, on the other hand, they had 100’s if not 1000’s of miles to get inside of. This was a huge buffer for the Russians, the taking of this land absorbed forces and matierial, not just in the attack but also the securing.
As the Germans went East, they ever lengthened their lines of communications. At the same time, the Russians lines of communications were forever shortened. In some cases it would have been almost possible for tanks and aircraft to join the fray direct from the factories that produced them!!!
Likewise they were frustrated by the many great rivers of Russia almost all of which had to be crossed with opposition.
In both cases, Hitlers failure to achieve victory had more to do with him over reaching his current capabilities and attempting to use the same tactics that had worked so well against unprepared countries that had less depth/no large stretches of water to use. Even the very well prepared for Eastern march, had regiments and formations moving with it that were not combat effective at the time. Many only received the manpower and equipment they needed when other units were broken up after combat.
Neither the Russians, nor the British were really in any better shape than other countries of the time. Esp when you chuck in Stalins overactive paranoia against his own men.
Niether side could break out, and change the tilt of the war for some time, but Germany was on a hiding to nothing. Hitler SHOULD have finished one or the other off, before opening hte other front.
Whether that meant stoping at France and sending everything East (bearing in mind the channel was also an obstacle to the British invading France (see Overlord)). Or crossing the channel and finishing Britain before heading East, bearing in mind that Russia and Germany were sort of at a balance at that time.
Allowing the Japs to take on America at that time, and worse joining with them in war against America was just poorly thought out.
Britian traditionally relied on its Sea Power, which in 1940 was backed by airpower and still the Worlds strongest Navy. The UK was never going to match Germany on the land, Germany would never really threaten the UK on the Sea and the Sea gives mobility and re-supply.
He who controls the Sea controls the World.