Holocaust denier presses on

World War II General WWII Discussion
#1

A zealot who served time in Germany for Holocaust denial http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n4p-2_Toben.html avoids extraditon to Germany for a fresh offence late last year http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5199874.ece and celebrates by returning to Australia to continue his bile and to antagonise courts in his homeland where Holocaust denial is not an offence but he still manages to get himself sentenced to gaol again. Thus reinforcing his belief and that of the brain dead who support him that he is the victim of a Jewish conspiracy, rather than of his own obstinate stupidity.

Fredrick Toben website made ‘scandalous’ Yatala gassing

SEAN FEWSTER, COURT REPORTER
May 28, 2009 01:30pm

A WEBSITE connected with Holocaust “historian” Fredrick Toben has likened his three-month jail term to imprisonment in a Nazi death camp, a court has heard.

Lawyers for the Executive Council of Australian Jewry today asked the Federal Court to launch contempt of court proceedings against the Adelaide Institute and its new director, Peter Hartung.

They said the “scandalous” claims, made on the website after Toben was sentenced, were “very offensive” and “gross contempt in the face of the court”.

“It is clear the views of Hartung coincide with those of Toben,” said Robin Margo, SC, for council vice-president Jeremy Jones.

"Toben was ordered not to publish offensive material by himself or by another agent or employee – it can be inferred Hartung is an agent of Toben.

“This material is calculated to lower the respect of the public for the judgments of the court, and is a gross contempt.”

Toben was this month sentenced to three months’ jail over 24 counts of contempt of court.

He repeatedly breaching Federal Court orders he must stop implying Jewish people offended by Holocaust denial were of “limited intelligence”.

Toben’s jail term was deferred to allow him to file appeal papers.

Today, Mr Margo said the Adelaide Institute site had published an article that questioned whether jail was “the final solution” for Toben.

He said the same article also asked readers to consider whether Toben would be considered “fit for work - or … gassed immediately upon arrival” at Yatala Labor Prison.

“Is the Full Court to be troubled going through the whole of this long saga?” Mr Margo said.

“The sentence (of three months) is so mild as to be unlikely to be changed on appeal.”

Judge Anthony Besanko will hand down his decision on Tuesday – if he refuses to grant leave to appeal, Toben will be immediately jailed.

Outside court, Toben was critical of media coverage of his case.

“I read the articles and I don’t recognise myself in them,” he said.

“I’m not a martyr – this issue is far deeper than that – and I’m not a f—wit.”
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25551210-2682,00.html

I’d dispute the last four words of the article.
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#2

Naxi Murder Mills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET-wjPBveII

WWII - Nazi Concentration Camps 1/8 (1945)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z6Uolqm6gI&feature=related

WWII - Nazi Concentration Camps 2/8 (1945)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Ne8S3_6O0&feature=related

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There are alot of them in this series!
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Nazi Concentration Camps Part 1: Leipzig and Penig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjIJsBE9eqE&feature=related

Nazi Concentration Camps Part 2: Ohrdruf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxj4SBXPRbc&feature=related

Nazi Concentration Camps Part 3: Breendonck et al

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywoJW_8NTfs&feature=related

Nazi Concentration Camps Part 4: Mauthausen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0QhA2ne0VM&feature=related

Nazi Concentration Camps Part 5: Buchenwald

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57OpP0Xbq_E&feature=related

Nazi Concentration Camps Part 6: Dachau and Bergen-Belsen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evnx4oWle20&feature=related

Concentration Camps-Bergen-Belsen & Treblinka Tribute Old V.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpXy9vYCeOg&feature=related

Peter Kleinmann Holocaust Survivor (www.kffeducation.org)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAeRrYit03E&feature=related

Survivors of the Holocaust: Berl Izikson. Part One.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe3Z6iMu5aI&feature=related

Holocaust Survivor Eva Brown Tells Her Story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrmN0TwKPx0&feature=related

There are more and more on Youtube!

Anyone who says it didn’t happen is a prepetuator of these crimes.

Deaf

#3

My dad toured Europe with the 506th PIR.

He had a bunch of pics he took at a camp they opened up.
Big piles of bodies and bulldozers pushing them into ditches to avoid spread of disease.

He only would say they took no prisoners for a time. It was very near the end of the war.

He was very proud of his unit and service.
He died young and never had a good word for anything German.

#4

I am sure you have heard about this on the news last night. Shocking!!

From The Toronto Star Newspaper:
WASHINGTON–An 88-year-old gunman with a violent and virulently anti-Semitic past opened fire inside the crowded U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum yesterday, fatally wounding a security guard before being shot, authorities said.
Washington Police Chief Cathy Lanier said the gunman was "engaged by security guards immediately after entering’’ with a .22-calibre rifle. "The second he stepped into the building he began firing.’’
The assailant was hospitalized in critical condition.
Law enforcement officials said James von Brunn, a white supremacist, is under investigation.
Museum officials identified the dead guard as Stephen Johns, a six-year veteran of the facility.
Von Brunn has a racist, anti-Semitic website and wrote a book titled Kill the Best Gentiles, alleging a Jewish "conspiracy to destroy the white gene pool.’’
In 1983, he was convicted of attempting to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve Board and served more than six years in prison. He was arrested two years earlier outside the room where the board was meeting, carrying a revolver, knife and sawed-off shotgun. Police had said von Brunn wanted to take the members hostage because of high interest rates and the nation’s economic difficulties.
Writings attributed to von Brunn on the Internet say the Holocaust was a hoax.
The museum, which opened in 1993, houses exhibits and records relating to the Holocaust in which six million Jews died at the hands of Nazis. The facility was crowded with schoolchildren and other tourists but all escaped injury.
Von Brunn attended Washington University in St. Louis and is an artist, said a cousin, Virginia Gerker of St. Louis, adding she hadn’t seen him in 50 years. She said her family had “disowned” him and believed him to be mentally ill.
In his website account of his “Federal Reserve caper,” von Brunn relates his “character shapers” – among them a schoolyard bully who beat him up, his service on a PT boat in World War II, and what he said was his first trouble with the law – a year in jail for tussling with a sheriff on Maryland’s Eastern Shore in 1968.

#5

I find it strange that some people continue to deny what was a well documented series of events.

Anyone who does deny it is either deluded, or on an agenda.

#6

I’d like to add that Holocaust denial is an element of a crime in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
If convicted one could get a fine or prison sentence up to 5 years.

#7

Or just a chronic fuckwit, which Mr Toben in the first post denies he is.

There’s no end of people who continue to deny well documented and demonstrated things, who make as much sense as the Holocaust deniers by their convoluted ‘logic’.

For example, http://www.freewebs.com/raacoz/

Also, from The Flat Earth Society forum

Q: “Why do you guys believe the Earth is flat?”

A: Well, it looks that way up close. In our local frame of reference, it appears to take a flat shape, ignoring obvious hills and valleys. Also, Samuel Rowbotham et al. performed a variety of experiments over a period of several years that show it must be flat. They are all explained in his book, which is linked at the top of this article.

Q: “What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?”

Circumference: 78,225 miles
Diameter: 24,900 miles

Q: “What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?”

A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, rotate at a height of 3000 miles above sea level. Each functions similar to a “spotlight,” with the sun radiating “hot light” and the moon “cold light.” As they are spotlights, they only illuminate certain places. This explains why there are nights and days on Earth.

The stars are at a height of 3100 miles above sea level, which is as far as from San Francisco to Boston.

Q: “Please explain sunrises/sunsets.”

A: It’s a perspective effect. Really, the sun is just getting farther away; it looks like it’s disappearing because everything gets smaller, and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.

UPDATE: The Electromagnetic Acceleration (aka “bendy light”) theory is currently being developed and reviewed by members. Once completed, the theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration will be used as an alternative in explaining sunrises/sunsets and horizons. The theories of perspective laws and vanishing points from E:NaG will still be the accurate representations of the FET.

Q: “Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?”

A: The Earth is not one of the other planets. The Earth is special and unlike the other bodies in numerous ways.

Q: “What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?”

A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites can’t orbit the Earth. The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites. However, temporary space-flight is possible.

Q: “What’s underneath the Earth?” aka “What’s on the bottom?” aka “What’s on the other side?”

A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, while others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle.

Q: “What about gravity?”

A: Dark Energy accelerates the Earth and all celestial bodies in the universe at 9.8m/s2. This is commonly known as Universal Acceleration, which produces the same effect as gravity. General relativity uses this concept to explain the equivalence between proper acceleration and gravity.

Q: “Isn’t this version of gravity flawed? Wouldn’t planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?”

A: No. By the same argument, we could ask why planes/helicopters/paragliders don’t crash into the Earth as they accelerate down towards them. The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce lift, which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity’s pull downwards, causes them to remain at a constant altitude.

The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.

Q: “Doesn’t this mean we’d be traveling faster than the speed of light, which is impossible?”

A: The equations of Special Relativity prevent an object from accelerating to the speed of light. Due to this restriction, these equations prove that an object can accelerate at a constant rate forever, and never reach the speed of light. For an in depth explanation: Click here.

Q: “If gravity does not exist, why do free-falling observers accelerate”?

A: According to General Relativity, free-fall is an inertial motion. Relative to a non-inertial observer, the free-falling person is accelerating.

Q: “If gravity does not exist, how does terminal velocity work”?

A: When the acceleration of the person is equal to the acceleration of the Earth, the person has reached terminal velocity (Diagram).

Q: “If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc’s edge?”

A: You would become directly affected by Dark Energy as the Earth is, creating the illusion that you are standing next to the Earth.

Q: “If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn’t the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?”

A: If the Earth generated a gravitational field, it would eventually happen. Of course, it would take a billion years for the process to complete. FE assumes that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field. What we know as ‘gravity’ is provided by the acceleration of the earth.

Q: “Why does gravity vary with altitude?”

A: The celestial bodies have a slight gravitational pull.

Q: Follow-up to previous question: “How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do?”

A: This argument is a non-sequitur. You might as well ask, “How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?” Snakes are not dogs or cats. The Earth is not a star or the moon. It doesn’t follow that each must have exactly the properties of the others, and no more.

There’s more at http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ba70524bed8deed83ff5f9af8d8f2010&topic=1324.0 , but that’s enough for here. :rolleyes:

#8

Well I say I’m impressed!

With their logic I guess we really aren’t even here, but in some kind of dream state (and how could anyone disprove this?)

I suspect 99.99 percent of the FE Society (and Holocaust deniers) say what they say not out of true belief, but to simply denigh what they know is the truth. They use words to shield their eyes.

Like Hitler said, “tell a lie big enough and long enough and people will believe it.”

Deaf

#9

Giving Holocaust deniers press time only keeps them in the public eye.They should be ignored for the crack pots that they are.Their arguments have never stood up.What they seem to forget is that Nazi Germany was prolific in its documenting and photographing of itself.So the evidence of the Holocaust actually comes from the Nazis themselves,e.g. the Stroop report.There are many more instances of Nazi culpability in the Holocaust.

#10

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
Voltaire

Is it possible to agree with punishing people for having a different point of view about an historical event in XXI century?, We have had a discussion in this forum about Dresden, I lost 3 members of my family there, baked. But I can not appeal to a faked “sensilbility” to avoid disccusing the historical events and try to establish the true facts about that tragedy or crime, whatever you want to name it.
Maybe it wasn’t 6 millions, it was 10 millions, but it must be established with out any doubts and all the arguments of the deniers been proved false. But imprisoning people make raise doubts instead.

#11

This raises the issue of crimes of opinion.

I don’t see anything inherently wrong in making expressing opinions a crime. It’s just a matter of opinion which opinions ought to be criminalised. Different societies have different opinions about which opinions to criminalise.

In the West there are countless laws which make it a crime, or at least make it unlawful (i.e. prohibit without imposing a penalty), to express negative opinions about race, religion, gender, people with disabilities and so on. There is no logical barrier to adding opinions about history.

Whether that is a good idea is a different question, as considered in the following quote.

Feb 23, 2006

Italian law on “crimes of opinion” has recently (Jan 25th) been revised as follows (excerpted and translated from here):

"...Safeguarding of [all] faiths, instead of [just] the state religion [i.e., Catholicism] ...Article 404 - (Offenses against a religious faith by means of vilipendio [~insult] or damage to property) - Anyone who, in a place designated for worship or in a public place or place open to the public, offends a religious faith, insults... things which are considered sacred or consacrated to a faith, or are used in the exercise of faith, or commits such acts during a religious function held by a minister of the faith in a private place, is punished with a fine of 1,000 to 5,000 euros." (NB: Previously, the punishment was up to three years in jail, though I don't know whether this was ever applied.)

"...Changes also to the Mancino law on racism, with punishment taking the form either of a fine or up to 18 months in prison for propaganda of ideas based on racial or ethnic superiority or hatred, and the instigation to commit acts of discrimination for racial, ethnic, national, or religious reasons. However, jail sentences of six months to four years are prescribed for anyone who instigates or commits acts of violence or provocation to violence for racial, ethnic, national, or religious motives."

Hmm. How to reconcile the fact that inherent in some religions are bald statements of racial, ethnic, or sectarian superiority? Classical Hinduism encodes the idea that Brahmins are superior and Untouchables inferior to every other caste. A Brahmin’s forbidding his daughter to marry an Untouchable might therefore be punishable by law in Italy.

A “crime of opinion” seems to me a dangerous concept in itself. Who’s to decide what is and is not a reasonable opinion? Not so long ago, the idea that women should be allowed to work outside the home for equal wages as men was considered ridiculous in Europe - and is still considered ridiculous, if not illegal, in some countries.

Several European countries have laws against Holocaust denial, as recently applied in Austria to British “historian” David Irving. That, like the Italian laws about religion quoted above, is going too far. No country can (or should) make enough laws to explicitly protect against every possible kind of hurtful speech. People should be free to state whatever wacky stupidity they believe in, and other people should be free to refute it. If a nut job like Irving had a job in a reputable university, I’d be worried. But his views are anathema to most people; the resulting social and professional shunning should be sufficient punishment for him. To draw a parallel, there are white supremacists in the US who state that black people are genetically inferior to whites. They are free to state those opinions, but they don’t get hired as professors of biology (or anything else).

Trying to keep such beliefs down by law tends to be counter-productive: the believers can then present themselves as martyrs for their faith, attracting more adherents. Children raised to think for themselves will become adults who laugh at such views. Children raised to blindly follow the dictates of another person, or a book, or a way of life, are less likely to have the critical faculties needed to evaluate every opinion that comes their way.
http://www.beginningwithi.com/italy/living/opinion.html

#12

True.

But the press thrives on controversy; conflict; sensationalism; and simplistic assessments. No matter how ill-informed or absurd they might be.

Take Afghanistan. I bought the press crap until something made me look at ISAF’s http://www.isaf.nato.int/ work a few days ago, and the opinion by some Australian soldiers who served in Afghanistan that their function was to provide security for ISAF and that if ISAF achieves its aims it will deprive the Taliban of their recruitment base which relies upon maintaining control of society, and notably women and knowledge, through the narrow prism of one sort of fundamementalist Islam. It’s a modern version of the counter-insurgency civil work which the Americans and their allies tried in Vietnam, and which quite probably would have worked if given the support it needed and deserved from government, the military leadership, and the press. But instead the press just got bogged down in body count and dramatic footage and anti-war protests, which is pretty much what is happening now with Afghanistan at a much lower level which demonstrates a disturbing lack of civilian interest in the current conflict.

As a mate of mine who served in Vietnam said to me a few days ago “The American ****ing media lost the Vietnam war.” And there’s a degree of truth in that.

In the same way that the press today presents climate change as a contest between believers and non-believers, not unlike mainstream history versus Holocaust deniers, instead of overwhelming hard science challenged by a few dissidents.

The essential problem is that the average person gets news (i.e. written or video description of events) from the mainstream press and the mainstream (i.e tabloid and commercial TV) press rarely provides informed analysis of any of the news it presents, except at best in articles or programs which do not appeal to many mainstream people.

#13

This kind of censorship conducted Giordano Bruno to be burned at the stake, he left a warning for posterity:

“Everything, however men may deem it assured and evident, proves, when it is brought under discussion to be no less doubtful than are extravagant and absurd beliefs.”