How close was Britain to surrender in 1940?

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#1

Probably a lot closer in reality than most people understand from the somewhat popular view of defiant Britain under resolute Churchill.

… in the Cabinet Minutes Lord Halifax reported Winston Churchill as having said that “. . . if he was satisfied that matters vital to the independence of this country were unaffected, he would be prepared to discuss terms” and that Churchill had further said … that he would be thankful to get out of our present difficulties, providing we retained the essentials and elements of our vital strength, even at the cost of some cession of territory.

From a very good critique of the various solid writers on the topic at

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2393/is_n2_v156/ai_14728651/pg_1

#2

Correction: Thread title should be “How close was Britain to a compromise peace in 1940”. Surrender is a different thing.

#3

well they did think about it for a good interest. I would have to say that after a while Britian relized they should not have peace with Germany because it could lead to several wars. They would also lose there ultimate allie the U.S.A. Which I am pretty sure would take action against the U.K. as soon as they signed a allie pack with Germany.

#4

There is some evidence that Halifax attempted to launch what would have amounted to a coup d’etat to remove Churchill and reach terms with the Germans in June (?) 1940. IIRC peace feelers went out through the Swedes seeking “reasonable terms”, and were emanating from Halifax and RAB Butler.

Interestingly, neither Halifax or RAB Butler were ever again to be found in critical positions of responsibility, lending some weight to the suggestion that this may actually have happened.

#5

Aww, Shucks!.. you beat me to it!

#6

That’s interesting. Halifax always was of the appeasement cadre. With him, as with many others of his generation, there were vivid memories of the slaughter of the ‘trenches’.

Still, there is a case for prosecuting for treason, if true?

#7

Too flaming embarassing, if true. Furthermore, the planned “coup” would have been a Parliamentary one and as such perfectly legal. Hence the selected solution of never letting them near a critical post again and shuffling them off somewhere harmless for the rest of the war (IIRC Halifax rapidly became the British Ambassador to Washington - an important sounding role, but given the “former naval person” telegrams the post was no more than a sinecure and well away from anywhere he could cause trouble).

#8

Which brings us inevitably to HRH the Duke of Windsor, and the common view that he was shunted off to the Bahamas because he was a Nazi sympathiser

In February 1940, the German Minister in the Hague, Count Zech, claimed that the Duke had leaked the Allied war plans for the defence of Belgium.[57] When Germany invaded the north of France in May 1940, the Windsors fled south, first to Biarritz, then in June to Spain. In July the pair moved to Lisbon, where they lived at first in the home of a banker with German contacts.[58]

A “defeatist” interview with the Duke that was widely distributed may have served as the last straw for the British government: the Prime Minister Winston Churchill threatened the Duke with a court-martial if he did not return to British soil.[59] In August, a British warship dispatched the pair to the Bahamas, where in the view of Winston Churchill the Duke could do least damage to the British war effort.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII_of_the_United_Kingdom#World_War_II

Which brings me inevitably to why Wikipedia is so often such a load of impressively referenced and completely unreliable claptrap.

The author of this selectively sourced entry relies on Sarah Bradford’s King George VI for the allegation about leaking Allied war plans, which is not quite what Bradford’s account amounts to, but chooses to ignore her consideration of the factors which led to his sojourn in the sun, being the King’s fear that DW was trying to stage a comeback; DW’s consideration of leading a movement in England for peace with Germany (which he abandoned on learning that if he returned to England he would have to pay income tax!); the King’s and the government’s fears that DW had a big mouth and was a security risk by revealing secrets to show that he was still at the heart of government (as distinct from having any treacherous intent); and the risk he posed to public unity of the King and government if he returned.

The sources referenced in the Wikipedia quote do not support the inference that DW was aligned with the Nazis against Britain’s interests. Instead, he wanted to serve Britain but was seen to be unsuitable for the jobs available to him in Britain and a risk in Britain for other reasons.

#9

I can quite believe that to be true - the man showed quite appallingly bad judgement on a number of occasions. What I do not believe is that claptrap about leaking plans to the Germans. For a start, whatever else he may have been he was still British. Furthermore, I can’t believe anyone in a position of authority would have given him accurate information about British plans. He had no need to know, and was clearly a suspect character.

#10

This is very true, and there have been a number of expos’e documentories about him. British secret services had to whisk him from Portugal, in order to foil a Nazi plot to kidnap him. From there, he was shipped off to the Bahamas. Is it no wonder that HM The Queen Mother would have nothing to do with him?

Regarding minutes of Cabinet meetings considering options, i.e. surrender. I would put it to you that Winston would debate a worse case scenario as much as any of his other options, but he would have had to have been ‘Nuked’ into submission. Also, at the time of this meeting eh was not Prime Minister and, thus, he would have to make the right noises to Chamberlain, in order to remain in the Cabinet. Another scenario he put forward was that, should, Britain fall, he would take the government to the colonies and continue the fight. He was not ready to capitulate and anyone with any sense of intuition would realize this if they read about him. By his own admission, the only thing that ‘frightened’ Winston throughout the War was the U-Boat threat, and what was being discussed here, was pre-Battle of Britain - hardly a U-Boat in sight.

No need to be embarassed by Halifax. He was just looking after his own interests as many of those aristocrats did in those times (up until the declaration of war, many of them had Nazi sympathies…not just Windsor). Fortunately, when Chamberlain wanted to appoint Halifax as his successor, Winston would not have any of it. The rest is, as they say, history.

Interesting about the Parliamentary immunity for Halifax. I shall have to read more on that.

#11

Hi!

Guys, do you think that mission of Rudolf Hess had anything to do with possible attempt by Germany to get UK out the war before Barbarossa?
I have heard that most of the british documents regarding this event are only to be opened in 2017. Is that right?

.

#12

That would make it what, 75 years after the event? That’s entirely plausible. The UK keeps records of everything and eventually releases virtually everything, but many things are kept secret for an awfully long time. I don’t think there is anything about with release dates of more than 100 years after it happened, but I wouldn’t bet against it.

#13

The whole Hess episode seems pretty bizarre. Obviously, there is something rather sensitive in those documents. I doubt that his coming to Britain involved any collusion from any senior British politicians. It seemed to take them a while to appreciate that they actually had him in custody.

Friends of mine guarded Hess at Spandau. There were all kinds of regulations surrounding him. As I recall, they were not allowed ot look directly at him if he was passing.

The whole situation has become blurred by conspiracy theories. Not least, on account of the secrecy surrounding the documents. Sometimes, authorities i.e. governments and polticians like to encourage such theories for their own ends. One of the theories is that the documents will reveal that it never was Hess in the first place, merely an imposter. Again, is alleged suicide adds fuel to these fires.

#14

From memory, it has something to do with a visit to a war-room in ?London where plans were displayed. At the time he was a ?major-general on active service, essentially not doing much but visiting people and places and ‘liaising’ in England and France. He would have got at best a vague general idea of Allied plans. It’s not like he leaked a full set of operational orders etc, which is what the Wiki entry implies.

The aftermath was that the King or Churchill or maybe just Army High Command gave instructions that he was never to be admitted to a war-room or anywhere else with sensitive plans or information again.

At worst, he shot his mouth off about the plans to impress people that he was still in the inner circle, when in reality he was trying desperately to get back into it. I think he was a fool and a knave, but never a traitor.

I think these events are all covered in much more detail in Sarah Bradford’s King George VI, which where I think I read it.

#15

You last sentence, which is a well-established fact, undermines the claim that it was part of a British ‘sting’ to bring Hess to England (or Scotland). It also undermines the claim that Lord Hamilton was part of that sting.

I’ve always been suspicious of the link with Lord Hamilton, whom Hess asked to see upon landing near Lord Hamilton’s estate following a German letter to Hamilton about nine months earlier suggesting they meet in Portugal to discuss a German-British peace. This link has never been satisfactorily explained, although his son made a good attempt in his book The Truth About Rudolf Hess which says his father was loyal to the UK. But he would say that, wouldn’t he?

The question remains in my mind whether Hamilton was part of some ‘peace with Germany’ group in Britain at the time, although he could have just been wrongly identified by the Germans as sympathetic from pre-war contacts with them.

The timing of Hess’s trip raises the obvious possibility that it was sanctioned by Hitler, on a “plausible denial” basis, to try to come to peace with Britain before launching Barbarossa so that he didn’t have to worry about the Western Front.

For those who don’t know much about it, here is a good summary of the facts, myths, conspiracy theories and various opinions about Hess, Barbarossa, peace and so on relating to his mission to Britain http://www.leninimports.com/rudolf_hess_and_the_royals.html