Split out of the “I want to dress up like a stormtrooper” thread at Egorka’s request.
To be fair Igor the Germans weren’t alone in publishing some fairly extreme propaganda…
He does have rather a way with words, doesn’t he?
Of course Germans were not alone…
He does have rather a way with words, doesn’t he?
Where did you take your quote from Ehrenburg? From a revisionist’s site? 
This a very poor translation, as it mostly happenes when Ehrenburs essays are quoted.
The quote you presented is the conclusion of the essey “Kill!” It was published on 24 of July 1942 in the “Red Star” news paper. Just 3 days before the famous order 227 “Not one step backwards!” - time of the furtherst advance of German forces into the USSR’s territory.
Here is the original in Russian: http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/KILLHIM.HTM
Piculiarly no one is interested to know the first part of this essay. Let alone the the presented quote conviniently ommited first two and a half phrases from the last paragraph.
“Red Star”, 24 of July 1942 (№173 [5236]).
Kill!
Here are fragments of three letters, found on the killed Germans:
The steward Reinhard writes to Lieutenant Otto to von Shiraq:
“Frenchmen were taken from us to the factory. I selected six Russians from the Minsk region. They are much more hardy than Frenchmen. Only one of them died, rest continued to work in the field and at the farm. Their maintenace costs nothing and we must not suffer from the fact that these beasts, whose children probably kill our soldiers, eat German bread. Yesterday I subjected two Russian rogues, who secretly devoured the skim milk, which was being intended for the pig wombs, to light flogging…”
Mateas Of Tsimlikh writes its brother corporal Heinrich Tsimlikh:
“In Leyden is a camp for the Russians, there it is possible to see them. Weapon they do not fear, but we with talk to them with the good old lash…”
Someone named Otto Essman writes Lieutenant Helmut Veygand:
“We here have captured Russians. These types devour rain worms on the area of airfield, they rush to eat from trash bucket. I saw, as they ate waste grass. And to think that these are - people…”
Slaveholders! They want to turn our people into the slaves. They export Russians, they taunt, to lead by hunger to folly, to the limit that dying people eat grass, worms, whereas dirty German with the rotten cigar in the teeth philosophizes: “Could these be people?”
We know everything. We remember everything. We understood: Germans are not people. From now on word “German” for us most terrible curse. From now on word “German” discharges gun. We will not speak. We will not be agitated. We will kill. If you did not kill in the day at least one German - your day wasted. If you think that your neighbor will kill German for you - you did not understand the menace. If you do not kill German - German will kill you. He will take your dear ones and he will torture them in his damned Germany. If you cannot kill German by bullet, kill German by bayonet. If your part of frontline is calm, if you wait battle, kill German even before battle begins. If you leave German to live, German will hang Russian person and will disgrace Russian woman. If you killed one German, kill another - there is nothing for us merrier than German corpses. Do not count days. Do not count miles you walked. Count just one: the Germans killed by you. Kill German! - an old mother appeal to you. Kill German! - this begs you child. Kill German! - this shouts your land. Do not miss. Do not let him pass. Kill!
Baisicly we can conclude that Ehrenburg was sort of a Soviet Harris. Harris which, we should “remember … had to lead a bunch of young men facing fearful odds and get them to keep going despite this.”
The german translation of Ehrenburgs infamous Kill!, Kill!, Kill! (убей!, убей!, убей!) -torrent of hatred is identical to the one pdf27 posted in english.
If you read the sources, the source is listed as “Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Roudedge & Kegan Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp. 6546, 201; Erich Kern (ed.), Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ- Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-61, 353-55.”
Actually, reading that translation and yours there isn’t very much different. “From now on word “German” discharges gun.” means nothing in English, and is replaced by “strikes us to the quick” which has the meaning of affecting us deeply and strongly, so isn’t a bad equivalent I guess. The only other one is that you have used the phrase “disgrace Russian woman” where that translation uses “rape a Russian woman” - I suspect the original meaning would have been understood as much the same.
But yeah, you’re right to be suspicious of IHR. Revisionism can be a good thing when supported by evidence (e.g. John Terraine on WW1), but they’re just being contrary to fit their pre-existing world view.
Yes, I have noticed too that IHR page reffers to Alfred de Zayas’s “Nemesis at Potsdam”. But it is not available on-line. If you Google the quote you will get just ONE hit from the whole mighty Interent - the IHR page.
Actually, reading that translation and yours there isn’t very much different.
Ok. I guess I did not express myself properly. In this particular quote from “Kill!” it is not the translation that is the most important but the fact that it was taken absolutely out of context. Think about it even one of the phrases got choped in half. True, if one reads the quote as it is on the IHR page he gets an impession that the author instigates to eliminate Germans from face of the Earth.
Though if one takes trouble, as any one interested in a forum like ours should, to read the essay fully and learn about it#s context he will see that the impression is somewaht different.
Though, I personally do not like such flamboyant essays anyway.
To start with it was called “Kill!” Not triple - “Kill!, Kill!, Kill!”
Secondly, please see my previous response to pdf27 regarding identicity of translation.
Thirdly, what exactly you do not like here?
What in your mind is most unappropriate in this essay?
If you find it unappropriate than do you find it outstandigly unappropriate or on the line with other unappropriate materials of that time (which ones)?
Thanks in advance! 
UPDATE: No wonder that the German translation of the quote from “Kill!” is identical to the presented English one. Even more, most likely, it was translated to the English from the German translation conducted under carefull Goebbels suppervision.
Here is excerpt from German Wikipedia:
Ehrenburgs flammende Propagandaartikel begannen oft mit Zitaten aus Fronttagebüchern und Briefen gefallener oder gefangengenommener deutscher Soldaten. Danach folgte meist ein kommentierender Teil, der schließlich in Kampfaufrufe gegen „die Hitleristen“ oder auch „den Deutschen“ mündete. Ein häufig zitiertes extremes Beispiel ist der Aufruf „Töte!“ (убей!) in der Krasnaja Swesda vom 24. Juli 1942. Der leicht gekürzte Text lautet in deutscher Übersetzung:[58]
[INDENT] [i] Hier sind Auszüge aus drei Briefen, die bei getöteten Deutschen gefunden worden sind: Der Inspektor Reinhardt schreibt an den Leutnant Otto Schirach: „… Ich habe sechs Russen aus dem Gebiet ausgesucht. Sie halten bei weitem mehr aus als die Franzosen. Nur einer von ihnen ist gestorben … Ihr Unterhalt kostet nichts und wir müssen nicht darunter leiden, dass diese Tiere, deren Kinder möglicherweise gerade unsere Soldaten töten, deutsches Brot essen. Gestern habe ich zwei russische Bestien leicht gezüchtigt, die heimlich Magermilch gesoffen haben, die für die Sauen bestimmt war …“ Irgendein Otto Essmann schreibt an den Leutnant Helmut Wiegand: „Wir haben jetzt russische Kriegsgefangene. Diese Typen fressen auf dem Flugplatz Regenwürmer und stürzen sich auf den Eimer mit Abwaschwasser. Ich habe gesehen, dass sie Unkraut gegessen haben. Kaum zu glauben, dass das Menschen sind …“ Sklavenhalter; sie möchten unser Volk versklaven. Sie schleppen die Russen zu sich nach Hause, misshandeln sie, bringen sie mit Hunger um den Verstand, bis dahin, dass sie Gras und Würmer essen, und dann philosophiert der widerwärtige Deutsche mit seiner stinkenden Zigarre: „Sind das vielleicht Menschen?“Wir wissen alles. Wir erinnern uns an alles. Wir haben verstanden: Die Deutschen sind keine Menschen. Von nun an ist das Wort „Deutscher“ für uns wie ein entsetzlicher Fluch. Von jetzt an lässt das Wort „Deutscher“ das Gewehr von allein losgehen. Wir werden nichts sagen. Wir werden uns nicht empören. Wir werden töten. Wenn du nicht pro Tag wenigstens einen Deutschen getötet hast, war es ein verlorener Tag. … Wenn du den Deutschen nicht tötest, tötet er dich. Er nimmt deine Nächsten und quält sie in seinem verfluchten Deutschland. … Wenn du den Deutschen leben lässt, hängt er den russischen Mann auf und schändet die russische Frau. Wenn du einen Deutschen getötet hast, töte einen zweiten – nichts stimmt uns froher als deutsche Leichen. Zähle nicht die Tage. Zähle nicht die Werste. Zähle nur eins: die von dir getöteten Deutschen. Töte den Deutschen! bittet dich die alte Mutter. Töte den Deutschen! fleht dich das Kind an. Töte den Deutschen! schreit die Heimaterde. Ziel nicht vorbei. Triff nicht daneben. Töte! [/i]
[/INDENT]
Ehrenburg used the word “kill” twelve times in the summary pdf27 posted only. Please allow me to use it just three times when referring to this catchy little text.
Personally I think the whole thing arose from a sick mind. Even Big Uncle Joe and his comrades in Moscow told Ehrenburg to shut the f**k up later on. If you actually DO like the harangue, it’s time to see a shrink, that means Quick!, Quick!, Quick! (быстро!, быстро!, быстро!)
I can hardly imagine the western allies did bank on a translation supervised by Goebbels, they should have had their own russian language translators!
It is not a summary. It is a misquoted pasage ripped of the context. Feel the difference!
Personally I think the whole thing arose from a sick mind.
Sick? Hardly. Unrestraint mind, evil mind maybe. But not sick. Sick implies some kind of insanity, some inconsequentional thinking. But the context shows that Ehrenburg’s essays are very consequentual. This is of course if you make effort reading them fully. And not just swallow snippets where phrases get cut in halft essentially changing their meaning to almost opposite.
Even Big Uncle Joe and his comrades in Moscow told Ehrenburg to shut the f**k up later on.
Right. But that was 2,5 years later after “Kill!” was published!
And the disposition of the front turned 180 degrees. In summer 1942 Germans were aproaching Volga - Ehrenburg publishes “Kill!”
In March 1945 RKKA is approaching Berlin - Ehrenburg is dismissed.
You see no significense in this what so ever?
If you actually DO like the harangue, it’s time to see a shrink, that means Quick!, Quick!, Quick! (быстро!, быстро!, быстро!)
I do not follow you on this one… Can you elaborate?
By the way, for a Russian it is an awkward feeling to hear from a German guy: “Schnell! Schnell! Schnell!” Kind of awakes subcontios fear.
I can hardly imagine the western allies did bank on a translation supervised by Goebbels, they should have had their own russian language translators!
Exactly what I want to say: A lot of this was translated to English from russian wrongly as well.
And a lot of these mistakes were also due to poor translation done by Soviet translator in the Soviet ambassy in London.
But it is hardly Ehrenburg’s fault - he was writing in Russian language, but not German nor English.
And this article (dated 14th March 1945) appears to be about the last one he wrote, entitled “Knights of Justice”.
Again, may be a slightly dodgy translation. However, if this is indeed his last article and he was banned for writing it then that puts a slightly different complexion on things - Ehrenburg was clearly calling for German civvies to be treated well in this, and for the Red Army to behave to a far higher standard than the Germans ever did.
Which they really didn’t!!! So, obviously they didn’t heed his advice if that was his meaning. It was very obvious to everyone that there was a difference between regions occupied by the British and the Americans, and regions occupied by Russia. IMO, there was never much difference between Germany and Russia. They treated each other in barbaric ways throughout the war.
I presume it is translation made by Andery from Armchair General forum: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=522738&postcount=2
Right?
Anyway, I could not find the Russian original of this article so far… In any case it was not the last one he wrote. The one “Enough!” from 9 of April 1945 was the last one before the “attack” on him. He also continued to write after the war.
Again, may be a slightly dodgy translation. However, if this is indeed his last article and he was banned for writing it then that puts a slightly different complexion on things - Ehrenburg was clearly calling for German civvies to be treated well in this, and for the Red Army to behave to a far higher standard than the Germans ever did.
That is the point. Ehrenburg never openly called for revenge towards civilian Germans. F.ex. his article “Kill!” is from 1942 and has nothing to do with German civilians.
But!!!
You see, Ehrenburg was a writer, an intelectual. But his public was not. It takes sertain effort to read his articles and understand them.
IMO it is likely that considerable number of ordinary RKKA soldiers could get an opposite message from the Ehrenburg’s articles. To my taste they are too emotional, too flamboyant.
My point is that it is much easier to blame (in this case Ehrenburg) than to try to see the relationships in a complex event.
“Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill! There is nothing innocent about the germans. Follow the orders of comrade Stalin and pestle the fascistic animal in its cave. Break with violence the racial haughtiness of the germanic women, take them as your legitimate prey. Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill!” Since I translated this with my limited abilites I hope I haven’t taken too much out of the context here again.
So what? It seems to be a habit in the former Soviet Union to drop someone like a hot potato once he served his purpose: Ehrenburg, Stalin, Schukow, Chruschtschow, Beria…
Come on, I was born in 1972 and I’m sure you were born after 1945 as well. No need for Germanophobia. At least I don’t get an awkward feeling hearing “Ubej!” or “Dawai!, Dawai!” although I am a Cold War child who used to check the skies for Sputniks at night with my friends.:mrgreen:
He-he… Excellent example! May I ask
- Who wrote this?
- What is the source of your quote?
Well, I didn’t. Too sophisticated for me.
“Ehrenbuch des deutschen Soldaten” by Walther Dahl, 1985
i know you did not make it up, my friend.
Does Walther Dahl writes about the context of this quote? Does not he mention when it was published, how it was used during war, as well as the comotion about this famous passage after the war?
No, unfortunately not. It’s just mentioned as one of the about 3000 (!?!)effusions of Ehrenburg.
I am answering from my mobile and it is very inconvinient to write long texts.
I will write later what I know about this quote you posted.
Mobile with internet access? I wish I had one…capitalist!:mrgreen:
Hi!
Have been very busy. Still is… Writing from the work office…
Ok. What do I know about it?
To start with let’s listen to what Ilya Ehrenburg has himself to say about this in his book “People, Years and Life” (russian version).
http://www.perevod.it/elkost/images/ehrenburg_PYL9_resize.jpg
I will tell about one history, connected with myself, but which falls outside the scope of just my personal life.
In 1944 commander of army group “Nord”, desiring to raise its soldiers, discouraged by retreat, wrote in his order: «Ilya Ehrenburg calls the Asians of “to drink blood” of German women. Ilya Ehrenburg requires that the Asian peoples would rape the German women: “Take blond women - this is our military booty!” Ilya Ehrenburg awakes the low instincts of steppe. It would be despicable to step back now, since German soldiers now protect their wives ». After learning about this order, I immediately wrote into “Red Star” news paper: «Once Germans counterfeited the documents of state importance. Now they counterfeited my articles. The quotations, which the German General attributes to me, give out the author - only German is capable to compose similar dirty thing. We go to Germany for something else: for Germany itself».
The legend, created by Hitler’s General, survived the fall the third Reich, and Nuremberg process, and much other. In 1960 the municipality of Vienna invited me to participate in the literary conference.
Soon after this I received a letter from the conference organizer, an Austrian social democrat. In the letter he asked me, if it was true, that during the years of war I issued a called to rape German women. West German magazine “Spiegel” elucidated, that “documentation” on my terrible past were presented to the public by the embassy of German Federative Republic. And recently Mr.Kindler from Munich, the publisher of the German translation of my book “People, years, Life”, passed me those amusing photo documents.Apparently, someone called Jurgen Torvald published in Stuttgart in 1950 the history of the war, in which he wrote: «Ilya Ehrenburg openly and full of hatred in the course of three years, was telling the Red Army soldiers that that the German women will be their spoils of war.» It appeared that Jurgen Torvalds real name is Heintz Bogarts, who published in 1941 a book in which he praised Hitler and whic was dedicated to the war criminal Admiral Erich Raeder.
In 1962 the Munich newspaper “Soldaten zeitung” began campaign against the publication of my book in West Germany. Of course newspaper recollected about the fake leaflet with the call to rape German women; it threatened the publisher, and called me "greatest criminal in the world history ". Some writers as, for example, Ernst Yunger, supported this Fascist press. Others, however, were agitated. Kindler proved that Torvald repeated Goebbels’s lie; and nevertheless revanchists still continue to repeat: “Memoirs of killer and rapist”. I repeat - the matter not in me. But among fifty million victims of the Second World War one can not be found - the Fascism itself.
Ok. That is what Ehrenburg says him self. Let’s say he is biased…
But I heard from others that
[ol]
[li]In 1961 the Bavarian state library issued proclamation where declared that the text of the leaflet (with the discussed quote) distributed among the right extremists has never been published in “Pravda” newspaper.
[/li][li]in 1996 the Munchen Institute of Modern History issued expert conclusion that: “Even though Ehrenburg was heavily involved in propaganda warfare, we have to highlight that there have not been found any proof that Ehrenburg has been author of the leaflet with call to consider German women as legal spoils of war.
[/li]…
We also know nothing of existence of such leaflet in Russian.”[/ol]
The last 2 facts should be described in the two following articles:[ol]
[li]„Die Vereinfachungen des Genossen Еrenburg“ by Carola Tischler.
[/li][*]„Ubej!“ by Bernhard Fisch.[/ol]
Would it be possible for admins to put the Ehrenburg related posts into a new thread, pleqase?
Thanks!
UPD: Thanks, pdf27!