The SIG was a Jewish commando unit in the British army during WW2 the uncanny thing was that they all speak fluent German, they were designate to infiltrate the German lines, all their training was in German and with German equitment.
I don’t think Jews are the main part of WW-2. WW 2 had nothing to do with Jews. The holocaust is an unfortunate side effect arising from the war. The war was caused by mitigating factors bewteen Germany and England. the Jews were not a factor in what caused the war nor were of much importance in the strategic inititives of the Alied forces. However, the jewish population fighting perhaps in Poland at the time, or even in the RAF was transparent …I quote: Jews in Britain and other nations, have always participated in the defence of the countries wherever they have lived, and always out of proportion to their numbers in the general population.
Well usually to have an army, you have to have a country and the Jews were still at a very early stage in creating the State of Israel. Also for say American Jews or British Jews most American Jews would regard the Army of America as their Army and for most British Jews they would regard the Army of Britain as their Army. There was a Jewish Brigade in the British Army though.
I am not sure what you meant by the “Jewish army.” Judaism is a religion, not a nation, and Israel did not exist until after (and perhaps, because of) WWII. IIRC, what is now Israel was a colony of the British Empire during the war; I am not sure, but it is also possible part of it might have been under French control, though I don’t think so.
As herman2 said, a great many Jews fought in the national armies of whichever country they were citizens. Even Germany would except half-Jews into the ranks, with a few “ifs, ands, and buts.”
Hi Ardee, Palestine was part of the Ottoman Turkish Empire but Turkey lost it to the British During World War 1, whilst WW2 did hasten the creation of a Jewish State and arguably made it a practical reality, there was a significant push by some Jews to create a State in Palestine well before WW1. It was the Drefyus affair that convinced many intelectual Jews of the need for the creation of a Jewish state. If my memory serves me right, if a person had one Jewish parent that was enough to qualify them for the gas chambers.
Hi Aly J,…I found some statistics on a google search that I found impressive…
…During WWII, 550,000 American Jews served in her armies; 8,000 Jews paid the ultimate price for America’s freedom.
…From my own awareness, although the Jews, like the blacks, made an impression in the War, they were unfortunately discriminated against, even by giving their life to fight for their country…for example, a Jew could not go to certain beachs or join certain golf clubs or even University, in Toronto, but he could offer to fight for his country and die, if need be…what a hypocrisy I say…
In fairness though, in the 1930s and even the 1940s like it was the done thing in most countries to discriminate against people, and basically anybody in the USA who was not a Western Ango Saxon Protestant got discrimated against and even if you were a WASP you didn’t get treated well unless you were middle class or above.
If my memory serves me right, if a person had one Jewish parent that was enough to qualify them for the gas chambers.
I’m sure it could, and did in many cases. But I believe there are many instances of “Jewish” Germans serving in the German Armed Forces during the Nazi era, when exceptions (“ifs, ands, and buts”) were made for various reasons. An example is given in the photo section of this very web-site:
While the individual discussed in the link did have such a situation, I believe I read once of a 1/4 Jew who entered the army because that was suppose to prevent “action” against one or both of his parents.
Regarding your comments about the Ottoman Empire, Palestine, etc., you are quite correct: but the Ottoman Empire was gone by the time we were discussing, and I believe there has been a Jewish faction/movement to return to the Holy Land for Centuries, not just since Dreyfus. It’s been a few years since I’ve read it, but I believe the book A Peace to End All Peace deals well with the subject, for anyone else who might be interested.
Quote- There was a Jewish Brigade in the British Army though. -
There was also Lehi (Stern Gang) who volunteered their collaboration in helping the Nazis force the British out of Palestine. Needless to say, there was a price; with the British out of Palestine, the Nazi regime will recognize Palestine as a Jewish state.
Many, not only Jewish, but they were the great majority, refugees from Axis countries or countries occupied by the Axis powers served in the British military.
A special forces unit, No.3 (X) Troop, 10th Interallied Commando, was made up out of refugees from mostly Germany and Austria. A large number of them were Jewish. They were used for reconnaisance tasks behind enemy lines and for interrogating prisoners (as they all spoke fluent German). They were all trained on the latest German equipment and collected intelligence as well. All refugees from Axis countries (not just in the Commandoes, but also refugees serving in other units) had to pick a new identity, a new English-sounding name and a fake CV, which was then used for their documentation, like ID cards and paybooks. The high command in the UK obviously knew the real names, but they were kept secret.
There existed several reasons for this:
The existence of a SF unit, with the personnel speaking fluent and accentfree German was secret.
To protect the soldier in case of capture by the Germans, to insure that they would be treated as normal POWs and not be sent to a concentration camp.
To protect family members still in Germany from reprisals by the Nazis.
I know of three people of German /Austrian heritage, who served in the British forces.
One was killed as a paratrooper in Arnhem, another one, Louis Hagen, was a sergeant with the glider pilot regiment and also fought in Arnhem. He managed to escape and later wrote and interesting book “Arnhem Lift”.
The last one, Peter Masters, fought with No.3 Troop, 10th Interallied Commandos during the Normandy Invasion as well as later in the Low Countries and Northern Germany. He also wrote a book: “Fighting Back”.
Recent research by a British university has actually given numbers as high as 10.000 German/Austrian soldiers fighting with the British. This doesn’t even include Italians, Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians, who similarly signed up while living as refugees in the UK.
I have also heard stories about female German refugees flying on special converted Lancaster bombers of the RAF during bomb raids, simulating the radio traffic of the German night fighter command (who used female ground controllers at the rader sets to guide the fighters to the bomber streams) to confuse German night fighter operations.
Herman 2 thats cruel,Too Hitler they where a big deal and Hitler started the war.So wouldet that make them a main bit of ww2.
I think Jews should be remembed for what they went though in ww2 nearly being wipe out. Cheers
Yes for sure, prior to WW2 during WW2 and for some time after WW2 Palestine was a British territory, I only mentioned the Ottoman Empire as a historical fact, furthermore it is important to understand how the State of Israel is run, in that part of the legislative code is inherited from the Ottoman Empire. For sure, there was an aspiration on the part of the Jewish people, to re-establish a State in the Holyland ever since their dispersition at the the hands of the Roman Empire. That said, it was only the emergence of European nationalism allied to the inherent problems that the Jewish people living as minority communities in the Christian West, highlighted by the Drefyus affair, which provided a conceptual practical methodology ie copying European Nationalism and being warned by the Drefyus affair of the dangers facing Jewish communities, that made the creation of a Jewish State both a wanted goal and an achievable goal. Furthermore, it is important to understand these issues in that, a frequently used argument is that Jews in Muslim lands did not suffer in the way that Jews in Christian states did and whilst it is true, that comparatively Jews in Muslims lands were in a better position to Jews in many Christian lands until relatively recently, one must understand that this is due to the fact that the Arabs were colonizers part excellence in that whilst they lacked many resources within Arab culture and society itself, they did make excellent use of those they found within conquered and subservient peoples, therefore they would have treated the Jews as a literate people with skills in medicine, banking, administration etc as an important resource, furthermore since the Jews had no country which they might form an alliance with since there was no Jewish State, this would have been regarded as making the Jews more dependable than christians within the Muslim lands, who might seek support from an outside Christian State. Why particularly I have gone to the trouble of explaining the once relatively good position of the Jews in Muslim lands, is that this fact is often used by apologists for Muslim fanaticism to suggest that such problems only exist today because of the legacy of European colonialism, the existance of the State of Israel, American foreign policy, etc, there are three big problems with this apologia which the majority of suits pretending to be journalists are either unable or unwilling to raise in response; one is that the Ottoman Empire which was the principle Muslim power of the modern era was actually at War with the Wahabis who had no religious tolerance at all and still don’t and “Islamists” today are not out to re-establish the Ottoman Empire but a Wahabi Empire; two Within the Ottoman Empire there was no such thing as democracy, and Islam was the State religion and whilst non-Muslim communties did have rights they had no such thing as e.g. the right to self determination and constitutional nationalism, so that even taking the more benign Ottoman example rather than the extreme Wahabi one, if one applies this to say to Britain or France, what this means is that France or Britain should exist as part of a Muslim Empire, in which Britain and France are run by Muslims as colonial territories with the non-Muslim population assuming the position of protected peoples; three the Ottoman Turks did not decide that they were going to be nice to the Europeans and not extend their Empire to London, Paris and Madrid they suffered military defeats to their expansionist policies, hence even taking the more benign Ottoman example rather than the Wahabist one, they were expansionist and it was European military capabilities which held the Ottoman Empire in check.
Fascist sympathies in the complexities of Zionist politics is no more remarkable than cooperation by certain Zionist elements in Germany with the Nazis.
Israel’s Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir came from the Stern Gang, as did other prominent Israeli polticians and military leaders.
Given such facts, it is only natural that while the more credulous Israelis at least for the time being tend to follow Shamir blindly, the critically minded search for an explanation of Shamir’s current behavior in his past. The most formative years of his life (he confirms this himself) were those he spent in the Jewish underground in Palestine, especially in the LEHI organization (the Stern Gang), where he rose from a junior member to the rank of one of its three top commanders. His loyalty to the ideological principles of LEHI can be observed to this very day. He continues to attend the yearly ceremonial assemblies of its veterans. This is why the ideological principles of LEHI deserve to be retrieved from historical memory. But not only the ideological principles. Their actions must also be reexamined, such as their ideologically motivated offer of an alliance to Nazi Germany, or Shamir’s assassination of his friend Eliyahu Gil’adi, owing to which he rapidly rose in LEHI’s ranks. Gil’adi’s assassination is currently much discussed in the Hebrew press, on the basis of both long known and newly discovered sources.
…
LEHI showed its uniqueness in its very earliest political strategy, namely in its persistent search for an alliance with Nazi Germany throughout 1940 – 41. Unlike all other Jewish groups of that time, the LEHI men respected Hitler. Later, the veterans of LEHI tried for a long time to deny that they had ever made alliance overtures to the Nazis. Unfortunately for them, documents proving the contrary were found by Israeli scholars and journalists and published long ago. The search for that alliance and its implications are best described in the above-mentioned book by Heller. He shows that the drafting of the Principles of Renaissance took place at the same time, and he argues that LEHI’s pro-Nazism was by no means unrelated to the contents of this document. http://www.mepc.org/journal_shahak/shahak39.asp
The ‘Jews’ that served in the German army in WW2 would not be classed as Jews today. They were mostly people who either had a Jewish grandparent, or a single Jewish parent, and didn’t practice the Jewish faith themselves.
Anyone who was officially registered with the German authorities as Jewish could not serve in the German armed forces, as the Nazis had made them ‘non-citizens’
Article 2.2 of the First Regulation of the Reich Citzenship Law (second link), like much of the rest of these laws, is laughable from a legal drafting and interpretation viewpoint.
For example “from one or two grandparents”. Clearly, if one is enough, two is redundant and just introduces room for debate. :rolleyes:
Further, “One grandparent shall be considered as full-blooded if he or she belonged to the Jewish religious community.”. The sentence before that says nothing about “full-blooded” (maybe something was lost in translation) while the determining factor of belonging to “the Jewish religious community”, whatever that may mean, has no bearing on helping to decide who is “racially Jewish” as specified in the previous sentence. A race and a religion are very different things.
Still, those who wrote and those who applied the law weren’t worried about legal niceties, nor were the judges wearing Nazi badges who interpreted those laws, because everyone involved in the legal charade knew what it was really all about. And rights under the law weren’t any part of it, which is hardly surprising as these were laws concerned with removing citizenship and what we now call human rights from people who might or might not qualify as Jews, depending upon who in power was targeting or protecting them.
I know a non-Jewish bloke of German origin who grew up in Berlin during WWII, mid teens at the end of the war, whose family and others in the area were treated by a Jewish doctor to the end of the war. As far as anyone knew, the doctor had no special claim to protection, yet he survived past the Allied victory without any harassment from the Nazis in the preceding dozen years. The reality on the ground might not always have been as we understand it from those who present the Holocaust as applying universally to Jews in Germany.
