Katyn 67th anniversary

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#1

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/gb/dokument.aspx?iid=50569

Today marks the 67th anniversary of the Katyn massacre.

In 1940 the Stalinist NKVD secret police executed over 20 thousand
Polish army and police officers, who had been held in POW camps in
Ukraine since the Soviets invaded Polish territory in September 1939,
on the basis of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact signed with the Nazis.

Commemorative events are being held throughout Poland. In Warsaw, a
symbolic wreath has been placed by Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski at
the Katyn quarters in the Powazki Military Cemetery.

#2

truly a very sad story. maybe interesting that for decades the germans were blaimed for that crime.

#3

Hello!

It is a very sad anniversary. It was a crime, no doubt! Polish people had to go trough a lot of suffering in the XXth century!

But since we are in a historical forum in here, 1PUK, can you tell us what was the real number of the Polish victims in Katyn?
And also what was the number of Polish officers and intellectuals killed in the spring 1940 in USSR?

I can give you a hint: http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/

And also this table from the same site:

#4

The “Katyn massacre” is the name all Soviet execution on polish POW and civilian. On List “Karta” in (first position) is the number 14.587 Polish POW killed by NKWD in 3 camps (Katyn, Kharkow and Twer (former Kalinin)). The number civilian excuted by NKWD is 7000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

#5

Hi Polar,

I know that for Polish poeple, “Katyn massacre” is the collective name of the executions. But it might not be clear to other member of this forum, that is why I asked 1PUK.

Polar, I also wanted to ask about those 7000 of civilians you mentioned. Where is it in the table. I can read the table but not good enough.

Thanks.

#6

Hello 1PUK.:wink:
Tell me please how many time more you will call the west Ukraine and Belorussian territories as Polish?
Is it a polish historic imperialism? Or simply short memory? :wink:
BTW can you explain the fact that whole 2 years Nazy did not noticed to the Katyn untill 1943 when they “suddenly” found the graves?

Cheers.

#7

Well, this civilians are in part II position 1 and 2. “Arrested on Kresy Wschodnie”
In coment to this list on web Karta http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/represje_sowieckie_4.html is info. that 3435 peoples from soviet prison on West Ukrain was mourdered and list with personal names was give by Ukrainians. 3870 peoples from West Belorussian was mourdered but list with personal names was “lost”.

Originally Posted by 1PUK
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica...aspx?iid=50569

Today marks the 67th anniversary of the Katyn massacre.

In 1940 the Stalinist NKVD secret police executed over 20 thousand
Polish army and police officers, who had been held in POW camps in
Ukraine since the Soviets invaded Polish territory in September 1939,
on the basis of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact signed with the Nazis.

Hello mate Polar.
Tell me please how many time more you will call the west Ukraine and Belorussian territories as Polish?
Is it a polish historic imperialism? Or simply short memory?
BTW can you explain the fact that whole 2 years Nazy did not noticed to the Katyn untill 1943 when they “suddenly” found the graves?

Chevan I don’t wrote this post but I answer for you question. In september 1939 Soviet Union invade Poland and what is name and who belonged this territory now don’t changed this fact.

BTW can you explain the fact that whole 2 years Nazy did not noticed to the Katyn untill 1943 when they “suddenly” found the graves?

Sorry I don’t know why Nazi don’t found this graves in 1941 or 1942. Mayby they don’t looking this graves. If you ask did “Katyn massacre” was use as excellent propaganda tools by Nazi. My answer is yes, but you remember that not changed fact who did this massacre and who is resposible for that.

BTW not only Nazi try use “Katyn massacre” as excellent propaganda tools

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Soviet trials
From December 29, 1945 to January 5, 1946, ten officers of the German Wehrmacht – Karl Hermann Strüffling, Heinrich Remmlinger, Ernst Böhm, Eduard Sonnenfeld, Herbard Janike, Erwin Skotki, Ernst Geherer, Erich Paul Vogel, Franz Wiese, and Arno Dürer – were tried by a Soviet military court in Leningrad. In what is now widely considered a show trial, they were falsely charged for an alleged role in the Katyn massacre. The first seven officers were sentenced to death and executed by public hanging on the same day. The other three were sentenced to hard labor, Vogel and Wiese to 20 year terms each and Dürer to 15 years.[38] Dürer is said to have pleaded guilty at the trial and to have returned to Germany later, the fate of the others sentenced to hard labor remains unknown.[39][dubious — see talk page]

In 1946, the chief Soviet prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials, Roman A. Rudenko, tried to indict Germany for the Katyn killings, stating that “one of the most important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are responsible was the mass execution of Polish prisoners of war shot in the Katyn forest near Smolensk by the German fascist invaders”,[40] but dropped the matter after the United States and United Kingdom refused to support it and German lawyers mounted an embarrassing defense.[1][41]

German WWII propaganda poster (in French) exploiting the massacre. The text reads: If the Soviets win the war! Katyn everywhereMore specifically, presented by the Soviet charge the Burdenko report, in spite of the reserves[42]of the Anglo-Saxons, was accepted on grounds of the article 21[43] and coded as URSS-54. The German White Book of 1943 was accepted on grounds of the article 19[44] with, as had underlined it the president of the court,[45] a potential convincing value; the course of the debates would make this adjective pointless. The intransigence of the Soviets to reveal Katyn in the bill of indictment was driven by the final objective: to quote it in the verdict. To this end, summoning of some witnesses was refused.[46]

However, the problem to be addressed by the court was not to allot the responsibility for the massacre to Germany or the Soviet Union, but to attribute the crime to at least one of the twenty-four dignitaries of the Nazi state.[47] The task of the charge was thus to establish a link between the reproached acts and the defendants. On hearings, however, the Soviet prosecutor proved to be unable to name the person in charge for the execution of the massacre[48], as well as the supposed guilty among the defendants[49].

In spite of this bankruptcy of the charge, Nikitchenko tried to make pass in force the Soviet point of view and did not hesitate to claim the inadequacy of the statutes of the court. This failed and the name of Katyn did not appear in the verdict.

#8

Chevan,
you’re singing the same old song again! :slight_smile:

On 17th of September 1939 Soviet Union DID invaded POLISH TERRITORY.
It was under a POLISH rule, not ukrainian nor belorussian.
It’s a different problem, who were the inhabitants : Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Jewish or German.
The land was polish. Your fatherland agreed to give it to Poland on the strengh of Peace Treaty signed in Riga in 1921. So stop messing with the facts and naming, because it might misinform other members of this forum.

By the way, if you want to go into details in each discussion, why don’t you discuss the all of Russian territories. I wonder how much “russian” they are.

#9

Not so simply mate.
You call it as invasion to the “polish” territories which indeed was captured by the poland in resault of collapse of Russian Imperia. In this territories there were a minority of poles - moreover the polish authorities used the repressions agains national elements and surppressed them.
Certainly USSR’s aim was not libarate the Ukraine and Belorussia but to join it to the rest of UkrSR and BelSR in the composition of USSR.

BTW not only Nazi try use “Katyn massacre” as excellent propaganda tools

That’s right this was mostly propoganda.
During the Cold war our USA “partners” used is wery succsesfull

Cheers.

#10

I ask you again. When area of Lviv was part of Russian Imperia?
Poland newborn after 123 years becuse all 3 empires what doing patrision of Poland was collapse. Did you think that we don’t deserv of indepedent country because they collapse?

Yes Polish were a minority but was the bigest national group on this terrain.
Abuot what’s repressions you wrote?
BTW Not at all terrain invade by Soviet Union, Poles was minority.

What was propaganda? Did fact that Soviet mourdered 20.000 polish citizen or did they try devolve a responsibility on Germans?

#11

And when the this part of Poland was not part of Russian Imperia?
The territory of Western Ukraine was part of Russian Imperia since the last devision of Poland.Tak?

Poland newborn after 123 years becuse all 3 empires what doing patrision of Poland was collapse. Did you think that we don’t deserv of indepedent country because they collapse?

You deserve it but your independent should not be the problem for the neigbourg states like Ukraine and Belorussia. This rat imperialistic policy which began Poland in 1919 with relation to the neighbors in the east it did not contribute to the independence of other peoples.

Yes Polish were a minority but was the bigest national group on this terrain.
Abuot what’s repressions you wrote?

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Украина
At this time in the West Ukraine, which entered the composition of Poland, the policy of polonization was achieved, national oppression was strengthened. Answer to it became the lift of nationalistic movement, immediately assumed forced forms. With the accession to power in Poland as a result of coup d’etat of 1926 of Jozef Pilsudskiy here were established the authoritarian regime, known as “sanitation”. Political opposition was pursued by lawful means and power methods. With respect to the national minorities was conducted the policy of “cultural suppression”, which in autumn 1930 developed into mass repressions against the Ukrainian population of Galicia and Volyn (“pacification”).
The subdivisions of the Polish police and army were introduced into more than 800 villages, were arrested more than 2 thousand people, Ukrainian organizations were liquidated, are burnt about 500 houses. The component part of “pacification” became Ukrainian pogroms from the side of Polish chauvinistic groupings.
Things it reached the point that into 1932 Leagues of Nations it condemned the actions of Polish government with respect to the Ukrainian population.

What was propaganda? Did fact that Soviet mourdered 20.000 polish citizen or did they try devolve a responsibility on Germans?

And what we had the court desicion already?
I think you my frined forget there are too much “dark spots” in this sad story.

#12

Area of Lvov belonged to Austria after the partition of Poland. As far as I rememeber, this territory belonged to Russia only several years in WW1.

The court desicion is not needed for each historical event.
Anyway no one court will be of use for a convinced denier :wink:

#13

Indeed less than one year Lvov belonged to the Russian Imperia since september 1914 untill august of 1915

The court desicion is not needed for each historical event.
Anyway no one court will be of use for a convinced denier :wink:

The investigation of russian-polish comission is still not finished. So in this way we could make the conclusions. There are too much controvercal facts here.

#14

German propaganda about the massacre:

(in French)

If the soviets win the war…Katyn for everybody.

#15

Sorry not belonged but occupied.

from Wiki

The Soviet Union continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990, when it acknowledged that the NKVD secret police had in fact committed the massacres of over 20,000 Polish soldiers and intelligentsia and the subsequent cover-up.[7] The Russian government has admitted Soviet responsibility for the massacres, although it does not classify them as war crimes or as acts of genocide, as this would have necessitated the prosecution of surviving perpetrators, which is what the Polish government has requested.[8] It also does not classify the dead as the victims of Stalinist repressions, in effect barring their formal posthumous rehabilitation. Since “for 50 years, the Soviet Union concealed the truth” [1] some, particularly in Russia, continue to believe the original Soviet explanation that it had been the Germans who had killed the Poles.

As you see are controvercal facts but even soviet and Russian gouvernemet not questioned theirs resposability for this fact

#16

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/У%...8на
At this time in the West Ukraine, which entered the composition of Poland, the policy of polonization was achieved, national oppression was strengthened. Answer to it became the lift of nationalistic movement, immediately assumed forced forms. With the accession to power in Poland as a result of coup d’etat of 1926 of Jozef Pilsudskiy here were established the authoritarian regime, known as “sanitation”. Political opposition was pursued by lawful means and power methods. With respect to the national minorities was conducted the policy of “cultural suppression”, which in autumn 1930 developed into mass repressions against the Ukrainian population of Galicia and Volyn (“pacification”).
The subdivisions of the Polish police and army were introduced into more than 800 villages, were arrested more than 2 thousand people, Ukrainian organizations were liquidated, are burnt about 500 houses. The component part of “pacification” became Ukrainian pogroms from the side of Polish chauvinistic groupings.
Things it reached the point that into 1932 Leagues of Nations it condemned the actions of Polish government with respect to the Ukrainian population.
Yes Russian Wikipedia always give as good info but always missing somthing

from english Wikipedia
The Ukrainian Military Organization (Ukrainian: Українська Військова Організація, UVO) was a Ukrainian resistance and sabotage movement active in Poland’s Eastern Lesser Poland during the years between the world wars. Initially headed by Yevhen Konovalets, it promoted the idea of armed struggle for the independence of Ukraine.

Created in August of 1920 in Prague, the UVO was a secret military and political movement. Initially operating in all countries with Ukrainian minorities (that is Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bolshevik Russia and Romania), with time it concentrated on terrorist and educative actions in Poland only. It was also active among the Ukrainian diaspora abroad, most notably in Germany, Lithuania, Austria and the Free City of Danzig.

Apart from military education of the Ukrainian youth, the UVO tried to prevent all kinds of cooperation between Ukrainians and Polish authorities. To further that cause, it resorted to terrorism and organized a number of assassination attempts on some of the most renown Polish and Ukrainian politicians, some of which were successful. Among such attempts were failed assault on Józef Piłsudski and Voivod of Lwów Kazimierz Grabowski on September 25, 1921, a successful murder of an Ukrainian poet Sydir Tverdohlib in 1922, failed attack on president of Poland Stanisław Wojciechowski in 1924 and deputy chairman of the BBWR party Tadeusz Hołówka. It also organized an assault on the Eastern Trade Fairs organized in Lwów in 1929. The terrorist actions of the UVO became one of the reasons for creation of the Polish Border Defence Corps.

Although formally it existed until World War II, between 1929 and 1934 it became part of the newly-formed Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Apart from Yevhen Konovalets, notable leaders of the UVO included Andrii Melnyk and Y. Indyshevskyi.

#17

Thats right Polar it was occuped.

As you see are controvercal facts but even soviet and Russian gouvernemet not questioned theirs resposability for this fact

Not so simply.
Indeed the some of contemporary historians doubt in the truth of documents which Gorbachev passed to the Jaryzelskij in 1990. The reason of falsification is very simply. Losing the pover inside the USSR Gorbachev has tryed to get the support from the West.He will to be the “honest” and was ready to get the responsibility of USSR for the all evil (real and virtual). Trying to get the foreign support ( particulary from Poland) he was ready to tell whatever the poles wish.
The so called “Beria’s note” where he ordered to execute the 14 000 of poles today is very controversial coz there a lot of mistakes and lacks.
Certainly the polish side which is unknown on the nuances of NKVD correspondence take is as undoubted trues. But here is a some seriouse mistakes.
Allthose mistakes together with the obvious will of Gorbachev get the politic profit from the situation forces to conclude the Gorbachev could simply falsify the documents.
After the collaps of USSR the Yeltsyn was ready to do everything to to be marked off from the Communist past. He didn’t knew the details of the matters.But he difinatelly tryed to use all the “compromising material” against Communist party.
Eternally tipsy it was ready to agree with all charges and to take entire responsibility only so that the International Monetary Fund would continue to give credits to its approximated. In this case Yeltsin thought only about the support of the “democratic course” of in the West i.e. personally him and his oligarhy.
So he also has very “convictible reason” to indisputably agree with the poles.
Not so far in the russian press has bacome the articles which more critically explained the events in Katyn.
Considering the deep politisation of this question they final answer could be very hard. The continie of investigation must help us to open the true. I think the will of both sides is really find the truth.

Cheers.

#18

You right as always dear Polar.
The full picture we could to see only reading the other wiki.
But tell me please firstly : what was before- egg or the chicken?
I mean what was before - ukrainian nationalist-terrorists of polish repressions of ukrains?:wink:
BTW do you know in the soviets also called the ukrains nationalists as the terrorists.
It was later after WW2 when the “forest brothers” from western Ukraine got the partisan war with the NKVD.
And do you know what’s was most RIDICULOUS? In the west they were called as the “fighters for independent Ukraine” against the soviet invaiders. :smiley: Ha Ha
Don’t you think is it strange the English WIKI use the “Soviet language” to the Ukrains nationalists?

#19

Sorry Chevan but yours “explanation” remember me that in today world are peoples who questioned holocaust and name this fact as great bleff.

If Gorbachev want have support from Poland he could remove Red Army soldiers from Poland. But he didn’t do it. Yes you have right document could be simply falsify but not this what was finded in grave.

#20

Gorbachov felt free enough to try to suppress uprisings in Lithuania and Georgia, but he was so weak and dependent from Western (and particularly Polish :wink: ) support, that decided to falsify documents and admit guilt for the crime USSR never commited

Yeltsyn was independent enough from western opinion to start war in Chechnya, but at the same time, he was so deeply dependent that even didn’t try to argue about the crime that has nothing common with our country.

And finally Putin, true patriot of Russia and criticist of the West (and not big fun of Poland :wink: ), is keeping silence about this terrible falsification, while he is able to move away this shameful stain of Russia’s reputation.

That sounds very probable :wink:

Particularly interesting is why the West needed that all?