http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw.html
This is a peice art…
Kovalski,
Maybe you could write to the guys that they made a mistake (a very common one) in this statement:
[INDENT]
http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw_intro.html
During the same winter months of 1939/1940 and in the spring of 1940 almost 1.7 million of Polish citizens were deported to the uninhabitable regions of the Soviet Union - never to see their homeland again.
[/INDENT]
You know that it was not 1.7 million, but 0.32 million people who were deported until June 1941.
Will you contact the webmaster of the site, please? :roll:
.
I already did. Now we need to wait for his answer.
Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski
Kovalski, you are a champ!!! (not a chimp!) :mrgreen:
By the way, yesterday I watch a play on TV about 17 years old medic “Inka”, who served in Mjr Lupaszka unit - she got arrested and was murdered by the UB (polish communist security service) in 1946.
The number of deported Poles, mentioned in that play, was about 1 million.
I’m starting to believe that we won’t be able to establish the exact number of deported, murdered, etc.
Kovalski, what about the report on the Karta site. It is mentioned in one of thethreads on our forum. Do you trust it. Does not it confirm the number of app. 320.000 deported people?
Mate to watch the play is not the best way to learn the real history.Even the literature is offten a mistaken.
For instance A. Solgenitsin wrote a excellent interesting book “Arhipelag GULAG” where he has “proved” in GULAG wer killed about 20 mln peoples. Later those figure were decreased untill the 1,5-2 millions for the period 1930-1957. Certainly this is a much but the Solgenicin lie has leaved the bitter imprint on in the our heads.
How could to belive him farther?
Well, if it is true that he made such big mistake, it makes him unreliable.
I just wanted to show how people create their point of view, based on books, tv, newspaper etc.
Some believe in 320.000 deported, other in 1 milion, and other in 1.7 milion.
I’m going to make some deeper research next month to find the answers.
Well My opinion is did was 320.000, 1 milion, or 1.7 milion deported depend how you calculate peoples.
For example citation from http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/soviet_deportations/deportations_2.html
The four major deportations of Polish citizens from the Soviet occupation zone took place on February 10, April 13 and June in 1940, and from mid-June 1941 until the invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany. How many people were deported? No one really knows, and chances are that no one will ever know the full scale of that Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign.
The most conservative Polish count, based on Soviet documents, is as follows: 140 000 during the first, 60 000 during the second, 80 000 during the third, and 40 000 Polish citizens, mainly from the Wilno area, during the fourth deportation for a grand total of 320 000 persons. These Soviet figures, even if accurate (and some scholars question their veracity), do not give a complete picture of that horrendous Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign aimed against Polish citizens. [b]If to add to them the various other deportations, smaller in scale, resulting in the displacement of civilians, prisoners of war, and people arrested for political reasons and detained in the prisons of Eastern Poland, about half of whom were eventually deported to Soviet forced-labour camps, one will arrive at 400 000 to 500 000 as the grand total of those deported using the Soviet documents as our point of departure[b].
By including voluntary workers, those who fled in June/July 1941, Red Army draftees, and other such categories one arrives at approximately 750 000 to 780 000 as the total number of Polish citizens who found themselves in the Soviet Union
BTW author this text useing words “Polish citizens”, not Poles.
I think that some authors who provide number 1,7 milion add to this number Poles deported in 1937 and 1938 who was “Soviet citizens”.
Guys,
This topic has been discussed here (look at post #40 and further): http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4341&page=3
And we found reliable information from a POLISH source. Kovlaski was so mice as to promise to translate some of it to us! 
So to me all those talks about how difficult to count deporties and unreliable the numbers is nonsense. All those talks about 1,5 - 2 million is either histeria or pure nigligence to reality.
All people were accounted for, including those of Polish nationality who fell victim of the purge in 1937. The error of the count is more or less known and one can never defend number of 1,5 million in a serious discussion.
And the last comment. Since when “including voluntary workers, those who fled in June/July 1941, Red Army draftees, and other such categories” is reasonable thing to do for the account of deportation?
Here’s the original answer from Mr Derrick Marczynski, the webmaster of the site:
"Dear Sir,
First, I apologize for not responding to your inquiry promptly - it
is not always possible.
Thank you for bringing to our attention the erroneous, and thus
misleading statement in the Katyn Memorial Wall chapter. This
statement will be rephrased within the next couple of days.
However, the number of 1.7 mln will remain as an estimated number of
Polish citizens forced by the Soviets into the Soviet Russia, whether
deported, imprisoned or interned until the final numbers become
available (if ever).
The true numbers of those individuals are still unknown, since:
- not all Soviet archives have been yet examined (which is
understandable because of the volume of the archival material and the
fact that Polish citizens were not the only victims of the Soviet
system and it is only fair that equal attention is paid to all of
them, including the citizens of the Soviet Russia); - the numbers, available from the NKVD files (320 000) can not be
trusted for a simple reason - the number of those, who managed to
return to Poland from Russia (approximately 250 000) after the war
plus the number of those, who managed to leave the Soviet Russia with
the Gen. Anders (approximately 140 000) is greater and does not even
leave any room for those, who died in Russia - and there were many
thousands of those, who died, not to mention many thousands of those,
left behind. Even the fact that some Polish citizens fled to Russia
voluntarily - mainly Jewish, Ukrainian and Belorussian
collaborationists - does not make the NKVD numbers trustworthy.
The number of 320 000 “quoted by Karta” is a number, based on the
Soviet records so far available (aforementioned) - they may be
incomplete, or plain false.
Additional information on deportation/numbers you will find in the
Museum’s chapter SOVIET DEPORTATIONS OF POLISH NATIONALS. Also, in
the near future we will introduce a new chapter on the Soviet
“evacuation” of prisons in the Soviet-occupied Poland on the eve of
the Nazi-Soviet war, which cost approximately 10 000 lives of polish
citizens.
Thank you, again, for contacting the Museum with your and your
Russian friend’s concerns.
I would like to take this opportunity to praise Russian historians,
archivists, many state officials and organizations (MEMORIAL), whose
research and efforts to uncover and document the Soviet-committed
atrocities are not only impressive, but also priceless.
Best regards,
Derrick Marczynski - Electronic Museum"
Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski
Oh good work mate, really.
Nice to see the serious relation to the our forum.
You are n the right way
Just one letter to the polish webmaster and WORK has done
the numbers, available from the NKVD files (320 000) can not be
trusted for a simple reason - the number of those, who managed to
return to Poland from Russia (approximately 250 000) after the war
plus the number of those, who managed to leave the Soviet Russia with
the Gen. Anders (approximately 140 000) is greater and does not even
leave any room for those
Unfortinatelly the pan Derrick Marczynski DO NOT KNOW the simple historian fact - the Army of Gen Anders was formen from the Polish POWs in the USSR.( not from DEPORTED polish sitizents)
As we have established in this thredad with help of Amrit http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4693
The overal quantity of the polish POWs in the 1939 in the USSR was approx. 240 000 of mens.
Plus the figure of deported poles that we have established in this thread with help of Egorka
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4341&page=4
was 320 000.
So the total polish population that were moved to the USSR was aprox. 320+240 = 560 000 .
So as could you see if the pan Derrick Marczynski do not know EVEN the official fugures fron the open archives ( and probably even do not wish to study the pablic datas ) how could he to claim that
not all Soviet archives have been yet examined
Ha Ha Ha 
This is the most funny part of this text;)
Just imagine the situation - the EVIL JEWISH collaborationists fled to the USSR voluntary- what’s a bastards
BTW do you know the reason of “voluntary” fled of the Belorussians , ukrainians ans jews to the USSR?
And BTW its obviously the pan Derrick Marczynski not as great historian as the great nationalist and anti-semite;)
Ðóññêèå ïðîòèâ ýñòîíöåâ,åñëè âû çà íàñ - çà ðîññèþ,ïåðåøëèòå ýòî ñîîáùåíèå äàëüøå,âîò íàø îôèöàëüíûé ðåñóðñ áîðüáû ñ íåîôàøèçìîì: http://www.radiodeejay.hr/forum/lang/inexed.htm
Ha Ha Ha
This is the most funny part of this text
Just imagine the situation - the EVIL JEWISH collaborationists fled to the USSR voluntary- what’s a bastards
BTW do you know the reason of “voluntary” fled of the Belorussians , ukrainians ans jews to the USSR?
And BTW its obviously the pan Derrick Marczynski not as great historian as the great nationalist and anti-semite;)
What is the problem Chevan?
when Germans took over the Western territories of Poland in 1939, some people (especially Jews) decided to leave to USSR and started collaboration with Soviets. Let me remind you that in many areas of Soviet occupied territories of Poland many anti-polish atrocities were commanded by Jews or the people of Jewish origin (some of them were the runaways from western Poland). Many of them became a members of russian communist party and NKVD. The same refers to some Ukrainians and Belorussians who worked for Soviets against Poles, but before 1939 lived in Poland and had the status of polish citizens. Accusing Mr Marczynski of being “anti-semite” because of what he wrote is a huge exaggeration.
By the way Chevan, when you point out the Jews in communist party in Russia, it is ok, but if someone show that not all the Jews were nice and gentle, it is very, very bad in your opinion and it is enough to call him “not as great historian as the great nationalist and anti-semite”.
Double morality again?
Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski
Well Kovalski i/m agree
But i hope you agree the increasing the figures of deported polish civilians uf from 320 000 to 1.7 million is a huge exaggeration too
BTW what anti-polish atrocities do you mean that were commanded by the jews ?
Tell me more about please.
By the way Chevan, when you point out the Jews in communist party in Russia, it is ok, but if someone show that not all the Jews were nice and gentle, it is very, very bad in your opinion and it is enough to call him “not as great historian as the great nationalist and anti-semite”.
Double morality again?
Oh common mate, i was joiking;)
I thought you know enough me not to consider this seriously.
You know my point about some “nice and gentle jews” among the bolshevic mass murders.
But i know nothing about jewish criminals in the Poland and this topic is the
hushed up in the world mass media ( i hope you know why )
I’m afraid we’re gonna have to wait for many years before whole truth comes to the daylight.
Chevan, I have to say that I’m not sure if I fell victim to old nazi propaganda, according to which in several cases the anti-polish atrocities were commanded by Jews on Soviet occupied territories (during ww2).
“[…] The Nazis distributed propaganda in the area claiming that Jews had assisted in crimes committed by the Soviet Union in Poland […]”
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom
(this article refers to the massacre of Jews in village of Jedwabne, where the Poles were the immediate perpetrators of that mass-murder.)
If i find any realiable source, I’ll let you know.
But I can give you a link right now to the article about famous case of Salomon Morel, which was suspected of crimes against of humanity.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel)
Another thing is the role and number of Jews serving in Urząd Bezpieczeństwa in 1947-56 (Security Office - polish secret police ; “polish NKVD”).
This problem is still “hot” in Poland and causes a lot of emotions.
Different sources give different numbers and scale of their role.
I assume that I won’t be able to provide any realiable data, because no serious research have been ever done about that.
Honestly speaking, I don’t care if they were Jews, half-Jews or jewish origin.
The only thing that matters to me is that they murdered a lot of innocent people.