This is the big one in my opinion, 2 of the best WW2 heavies going head to head. Each has great armour a massive cannon (in particular the JS’s 122mm D-25T gun)and a decent speed. Well what do you think?
I think this guy knew which he prefered! 39 tanks destroyed (including JS tanks) by one tank.
“On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg stood a further 11 Stalin tanks, and away on the egde of the village itself were around 120-150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled and re-armed. I opened fire and destroyed first and last of the 11 Stalin tanks on the road…My own personal score of enemy tanks destroyed in this action was 39.”
SS-Hauptscharführer Karl Körner,
schwere SS Panzer Abteilung (103) 503 / III SS Panzer Corps,
East Germany, April of 1945.
From what I’ve read, the gun on the JS wasn’t as powerful as the size suggests - although it did have a large 122mm gun, the gun wasn’t as powerful as the 88mm that the Konigstiger had. Both had heavy armour (I think the Tiger just edges out the JS, although I could be wrong) and were heavy and not that manouverable. The King Tiger could carry far more ammunition - 80 or 86 rounds (dependant on which turret was used), compared to just 28 in the JS.
If the Germans had a decent supply of fuel by 1944/45 and the industrial capacity to mass produce them, then the King Tiger could literally have won the war for the Germans - the allies didn’t have a single tank that could touch it.
So, I’d say that the King Tiger probably edges it.
editted to add - the quote came from achtungpanzer.com
second edit - changed the number of rounds the KT could carry.
From what i understand none of the King Tigers where used on the eastern front. Altough I did hear that the Russians caputured one. So its my understanded that the JS-3 or anyother soviet tank for that matter never faced a King Tiger.
King Tiger was a hell of a tank but all tanks can be destroyed from the air with the right bomb. Also the King Tiger used alot of fuel. Which was major problem with the Battle of the Bulge. Which was mostly targeted at the American sector of the line. I found it facinating that only 55000 British troops preticpated in the offensive compared to the 500000 Americans that were involved. But IMO all the offensive did was to bring the war to a quicker conclusion. All those resources could have been conserved for the defense of the Reich and Berlin. However a certain retard prevailed. Thank god for that one.
Check the quote in my reply Gen, he took on what looks like a whole armoured division with his King Tiger
Check the quote in my reply Gen, he took on what looks like a whole armoured division with his King Tiger[/quote]
Normally I wouldnt ask…but i was pretty certain. Do you have a reference? I dont at the moment but I think i could hunt it down. Just want to be clear. 
For furture readers.
Great post but I dont see anywhere on there where it talks about a russian/soviet tank facing a king tiger. So could you please elborate. BTW i love that site.
"“On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg stood a further 11 Stalin tanks, and away on the egde of the village itself were around 120-150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled and re-armed. I opened fire and destroyed first and last of the 11 Stalin tanks on the road…My own personal score of enemy tanks destroyed in this action was 39.”
SS-Hauptscharführer Karl Körner,
schwere SS Panzer Abteilung (103) 503 / III SS Panzer Corps,
East Germany, April of 1945."
A King Tiger commander talking about a contact in eastern Germany
also from achtungpanzer.com:
“The powerful 88mm gun was able to knock out Sherman, Cromwell and T-34/85 tanks at a range of 3,500 meters (2.2 miles), far beyond the range of enemy guns”
There are no records or photographs to prove that the Tiger II’s frontal armor was ever penetrated in combat. Its side armor was easier to penetrate by existing Allied armor (e.g. Sherman Firefly, T-34/85, JS-II)
“The first time the Tiger II saw action was in May 1944 near Minsk, followed by another action (of schwere Panzer Abteilung 501 commanded by Oberstleutnant von Legat) in July 1944 at Sandomierz in Poland. Only two companies of schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 commanded by Hauptmann Fromme, equipped with Tiger II tanks (with Porsche turrets), were committed to the fighting in Normandy”
“On the Eastern Front, Tiger II tanks took part in the fighting in Hungary and in central Poland in 1944 and 1945. The Tiger II saw combat on both Western and Eastern Fronts, where it proved to be a superb weapon and worthy opponent when operated by an experienced crew and properly maintained. A small number of King Tigers also defended Berlin in April and May of 1945. A Tiger II from schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 was also the last German tank to be destroyed in the war. It was blown up by its crew in Austria on May 10, 1945.”
I guess i stand corrected but only partly. The Stalin tanks that he is quoting were most likely JS-2’s.
As you can see from this article it would be very doubtful if a King Tiger ever faced a JS-3 or at least in the number that he is talking about.
Don’t think the JS-3 actually took part in any of the fighting - so they probably didn’t. I doubt it was that much of an advance on the JS-II though, so the same kind of comparison would still stand, and the King Tiger would be superior to the JS-III just like the JS-II
Don’t think the JS-3 actually took part in any of the fighting - so they probably didn’t. I doubt it was that much of an advance on the JS-II though, so the same kind of comparison would still stand, and the King Tiger would be superior to the JS-III just like the JS-II[/quote]
Ill agree with that…I say that the King Tiger was probably the best tank of the war. If they could have been built in large numbers with the resources needed they could have changed the outcome of the war.
Now I guess that the bottom line with the 3rd Reich. If they would have just had a little more in all area’s they could have won.
Don’t think the JS-3 actually took part in any of the fighting - so they probably didn’t. I doubt it was that much of an advance on the JS-II though, so the same kind of comparison would still stand, and the King Tiger would be superior to the JS-III just like the JS-II[/quote]
The JS 3 was a far superior beast and I dont think the Tiger II could have penetrated the new front turret or front armour at 230mm from any great range. As to which was the better tank, it all depends on how you look at it, technicaly and build precision it would probably be the Tiger. Remember the IS3 wasnt designed to go head to head with german armour so as a support tank it would have been excellent. Soviet doctrine meant that 10% of a given tank force were IS models. IS had a good range and a reliable engine, so if its an IS3 I would probably go for that, although it only came into service in May 45. It did fight the Japanese though!
Don’t think the JS-3 actually took part in any of the fighting - so they probably didn’t. I doubt it was that much of an advance on the JS-II though, so the same kind of comparison would still stand, and the King Tiger would be superior to the JS-III just like the JS-II[/quote]
Ok What makes you think that the Tiger 2 Was so Much better then a js-3. The 2 first in the series were good tanks but the js-3 was a great deal better than these.I think (and technical data supports this) the js-3 was more than capable of blowing the turret clean off a King Tiger, Although it depends who shoots first
AAA! Without me, all again begin to compare tanks only by gun and armor! Brrr… Away from simplicity! Facts:
-
All Tiger tanks was a lot higher tha JS (more good target)
-
Tiger tanks was transported only with special train platforms, instead JS, wich transported in normal platforms. (transporting Tigers was more expensive, harder, and more important - was impossible to hide tansportation of that type of tanks)
-
Cost in production. Only by human resources Tiger was more expensive than JS. About materials - they can’t even compare.
-
Maneuvrability. The proportion of mass/engine power was awful. All russian tanks was better proportion than ANY of Germans tanks. (this fact allowed, for example, to mobile groups of T-34 destroy groups of Panters and Tigers with any directions, when germans was limited with road.
Tigers was good tanks when compared with tanks of alliance, but they wasn’t so good when was time to compare with soviet JS’s
y 1942, the Soviet high command realized the need for new heavy tanks of extreme firepower. With the experience from the KV line of heavy tanks, the Soviets started to build a new type called JS after generalissimus Josef Stalin. The appearance of the German heavy Tigers on the Eastern Front played a direct and decisive role in increasing the speed of development of these new models. The suspension was taken from an earlier prototype heavy tank (the T-100) and was quite similar to the earlier KV. The Christie-type torsion bar suspension was mounted higher in the hull, reducing the tank’s ability to negotiate obstacles but also decreasing it’s overall height and allowing the installation of a larger turret.
First model of the series, the JS-1 finished in mid-1943 was initially armed with 85mm cannon. Soon, the tank was up-gunned to 100mm and then 122mm resulting in the JS-2. The new tank had its operational debut late in 1943. By February 1944, all heavy breakthrough tank regiments were re-equipped with the new vehicles. At that time, it reanked among the best tanks in the world. With the gun capable of penetrating 160mm of armor at 1000m, it was more than capable of taking on heavy German tanks such as the Panther and Tiger, and was on fairly even terms with the King Tiger, although it was outweighed more than 20 tons by the latter.
That is from this http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/10/stuff_eng_turkalj_js2.htm
Welcome back Komissar! I remember that debate!!
Welcome back Komissar! I remember that debate!! :D[/quote]
Welcome BACK!
I don’t know nothing about that debate but WELCOME BACK :lol: :lol: :lol:
mad someone finally agrees with me
your forgeting some important points. the JS-3 's cannon is incredibly slow to fire. only 3 rounds a minute. the king tiger can fire 15 rounds a minute. the js-3 can only hold 28 rounds, while the kt can hold 90.
the king tiger also have very superior optics, and can destroy tanks 3,000 meters away with very favoriable accuracy.
lastly, the king tiger has very fast turret movement, faster then the js-3. the turrent can do a 180 in 9 seconds.
also, the king tiger wasn’t as expensive as you would think. it costed 300,000 reichsmarks. if you compare this to a panzer IV aus J, which cost 100,000 rm, its not that bad of a deal.
and, in any event, JS-2s were still markedly inferior to King tigers, even though they were the best the allies and reds could come up with.