Malaya & Vietnam Comparison

Is there any interest in discussing the common features and differences between Malaya and Vietnam from the post-war emergence of independence movements to the end of Western military involvement, with particular reference to the way each conflict was managed and fought by the British and Americans respectively, with very different results?

There was an earlier start on this topic which didn’t go far
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2600&highlight=malaya+vietnam but as two of those members are still on the board and there’s at least me and another member who are interested in aspects of this comparison http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4699 I thought we might get a useful discussion going.

Anybody interested?

In case anyone is, the first question is: What period do we cover?

I’d suggest Malaya from the start of the Emergency to the end of Confrontation. They were entirely different conflicts against entirely different enemies, but the experience gained during the Emergency seems to flow into Confrontation in some respects to produce a more successful British response than the American response in Vietnam, with the result that the British secured Malaysia from internal and external aggression, which is exactly the opposite of what the Americans (with consistent help from the South Vietnamese military and government) achieved in Vietnam.

With Vietnam, I’d suggest covering the same period as with Malaya but extending it to the American withdrawal in 1972 to measure the American successes and failures.

Malaya/Malaysia

HISTORY AND ETHNIC RELATIONS
Emergence of the Nation. The name Malaysia comes from an old term for the entire Malay archipelago. A geographically truncated Malaysia emerged out of the territories colonized by Britain in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Britain’s representatives gained varying degrees of control through agreements with the Malay rulers of the peninsular states, often made by deceit or force. Britain was attracted to the Malay peninsula by its vast reserves of tin, and later found that the rich soil was also highly productive for growing rubber trees. Immigrants from south China and south India came to British Malaya as labor, while the Malay population worked in small holdings and rice cultivation. What was to become East Malaysia had different colonial administrations: Sarawak was governed by a British family, the Brookes (styled as the “White Rajas”), and Sabah was run by the British North Borneo Company. Together the cosmopolitan hub of British interests was Singapore, the central port and center of publishing, commerce, education, and administration. The climactic event in forming Malaysia was the Japanese occupation of Southeast Asia from 1942-1945. Japanese rule helped to invigorate a growing anti-colonial movement, which flourished following the British return after the war. When the British attempted to organize their administration of Malaya into one unit to be called the Malayan Union, strong Malay protests to what seemed to usurp their historical claim to the territory forced the British to modify the plan. The other crucial event was the largely Chinese communist rebellion in 1948 that remained strong to the mid-1950s. To address Malay criticisms and to promote counter-insurgency, the British undertook a vast range of nation-building efforts. Local conservatives and radicals alike developed their own attempts to foster unity among the disparate Malayan population. These grew into the Federation of Malaya, which gained independence in 1957. In 1963, with the addition of Singapore and the north Borneo territories, this federation became Malaysia. Difficulties of integrating the predominately Chinese population of Singapore into Malaysia remained, and under Malaysian directive Singapore became an independent republic in 1965.

National Identity. Throughout Malaysia’s brief history, the shape of its national identity has been a crucial question: should the national culture be essentially Malay, a hybrid, or separate ethnic entities? The question reflects the tension between the indigenous claims of the Malay population and the cultural and citizenship rights of the immigrant groups. A tentative solution came when the Malay, Chinese, and Indian elites who negotiated independence struck what has been called “the bargain.” Their informal deal exchanged Malay political dominance for immigrant citizenship and unfettered economic pursuit. Some provisions of independence were more formal, and the constitution granted several Malay “special rights” concerning land, language, the place of the Malay Rulers, and Islam, based on their indigenous status. Including the Borneo territories and Singapore in Malaysia revealed the fragility of “the bargain.” Many Malays remained poor; some Chinese politicians wanted greater political power. These fractures in Malaysian society prompted Singapore’s expulsion and produced the watershed of contemporary Malaysian life, the May 1969 urban unrest in Kuala Lumpur. Violence left hundreds dead; parliament was suspended for two years. As a result of this experience the government placed tight curbs on political debate of national cultural issues and began a comprehensive program of affirmative action for the Malay population. This history hangs over all subsequent attempts to encourage official integration of Malaysian society. In the 1990s a government plan to blend the population into a single group called “Bangsa Malaysia” has generated excitement and criticism from different constituencies of the population. Continuing debates demonstrate that Malaysian national identity remains unsettled.

This is an extract from ‘Draining the Swamp’ Deteating Communist insurgency by Wade markel:

[i]“The first reaction to guerilla warfare must be to protect and control the
population.”
— Brigadier Richard L. Clutterbuck
The Long, Long War: Counterinsurgency
in Malaya and Vietnam

“What the peasant wants to know is: does the government mean to win the
war? Because if not, he will have to support the insurgent.”
— Sir Robert Thompson
Defeating Communist Insurgency:
The Lessons of Malaya and Vietnam

“When you’re up to your ass in alligators, it’s hard to remember that you came
to drain the swamp.”
— Anon.

Thirty years after the end of the Vietnam War, the United States and its Army again find themselves confronted with a tenacious insurgency, this time in Iraq. Given our decidedly mixed record in counterinsurgency operations, we tend to look elsewhere for successful models. Many look to the British, especially their exemplary and thorough victory in Malaya, to provide such a model.1 Commentators cite the British Army’s superior organizational adaptability and flexibility, strategic patience, their predilection for using the minimum force necessary, the relative ease with which they integrated civil and military aspects of national power, and the apparent facility with which they adapted their strategies to local circumstances of geography and culture.

We would indeed do well to emulate the aforementioned characteristics of British counterinsurgency practice, but there was more to British success in Malaya than a good attitude. The key element of their success was the effective internment of the Chinese “squatter” population, the segment of Malayan society from which the insurgents almost entirely drew their strength.2 By interning the “squatters” in fortified “New Villages,” the British and their Malayan allies were able to deny the communist insurgents access to recruits, food, and military supplies. It also allowed them to narrow the scope of their intelligence efforts, as the insurgents had to maintain contact with their base under the very noses of the Anglo-Malayan government. [/i]

My mind had been on the Mau Mau situation in Kenya, as an example of Hearts and Minds. The Mau Mau were mainly recruited from the Kikuyu tribe, and it was they that enabled the British to defeat the Mau Mau. However, that’s a slight digression.

A strategy of population control was not invariably effective, however. In Vietnam, the Diem regime’s British-advised and American-supported attempt to implement this strategy, the Strategic Hamlet program, not only failed to weaken the insurgency but actually exacerbated popular resistance. On the other hand, the situation in Vietnam differed significantly from that in Malaya and Kenya. In contrast to the insurgent movements in those two countries, isolated both from external support and concentrated in a socially distinct minority, the Viet Cong enjoyed robust external support from North Vietnam and at least minimal legitimacy among the ethnically homogeneous South Vietnamese. Indeed, it was Diem’s power base, the minority Catholic community, that was in danger of being isolated.

And for the curious, a comment on the present:[i]

As troubling as it might be, the evidence suggests that the main lesson to be drawn from the British practice of counterinsurgency is that physical control of the contested segment of the population is essential. Further, that control is greatly facilitated when the insurgency’s support is concentrated among a small and relatively unpopular minority of the population. When that condition obtains, as it did in Malaya and Kenya, a strategy of population control can succeed. When conditions are different, as they were in Vietnam, this strategy will fail. In Iraq today, the situation resembles that which obtained in Malaya and Kenya more than it resembles conditions in Vietnam. A strategy of population control could therefore be applied, provided it was modified to account for local circumstances and the evolution in international mores.[/i]Source: Wade Markell

Another very relevant point - it was possible to cut off arms smuggling into Malaya with relative ease. This was emphatically NOT possible in Vietnam, with major effects on the type of war faced.

I’d suggest that the biggest advantage the British had in Malaya was not the counter-insurgency strategy they developed but the ability to implement it unhindered because Malaya was a British colony. Britain controlled everything.

Conversely, the biggest disadvantage the Americans had in Vietnam was that they did not control it but had to work in conjunction with and, ultimately under the control of, the sovereign, and widely corrupt, South Vietnamese government and its often incompetent and corrupt military leadership.

Definitely.

Another aspect of that was that the major communist nations never got behind the communists during the Emergency in Malaya in the way they did with Vietnam, partly because Korea was the focus in the early part. Cuba, the USSR and China all gave NV massive support. This enabled NV and the VC to fight a war well beyond their own means. Although the American involvement enabled SV to fight a war well beyond its own means, too.

Another important difference between the Malayan Emergency and Vietnam was that the insurgents in Malaya were largely contained within the state and did not received substantial external support.

In Vietnam, the nominal state was divided into two de-facto states by the 1954 Geneva Accords, which resulted in the insurgents in SV receiving substantial external support from NV and in NV also becoming a state in direct conflict with SV, and in time sending substantial regular forces into SV to fight SV and US forces. The British never had to contend with an external state or external regular forces coming into Malaya during the Emergency, although the Confrontation period was more similar to Vietnam with Indonesia as the external opponent.

Some USMC Colonel:

“We are here to assist the Vie…tna…me…se - because! - inside every ‘gook’ is an American fighting to get out!”

Source: Full Metal Jacket.

It’s a glib phrase which illustrates an unfortunate aspect which differentiates the Malaya and Vietnam events.

In Malaya, regardless of whatever one may think about British colonialism, the British had a lot of people who had lived in Malaya for a long time and knew the land and its people, and how to work with them.

In Vietnam, the equivalent was the French, who had long gone by the time the Americans arrived to impose their views upon the Vietnamese.

A wider aspect of this is that American foreign policy then, before and since has had a tendency to dictate terms to others. Britain hadn’t been backward in this area for much of its history. But, since beginning to grasp after WWII and finally realising after Suez in 1956 that it was no longer an imperial power and couldn’t dictate terms to the world backed up military force, it learned to use its long imperial and colonial history of more subtle diplomatic and military skills than America used, and uses, to achieve satisfactory results without all-out conflict.

Yes, it’s about coming to terms with reality. I do think that many British polticians had achieved this before Suez, but Eden was a bit of a throwback, and as CHurchill’s successor wanted to prove that he was up o the job. Not quite a full shilling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5199392.stm

A further acceptance of reality by the British was the withdrawal from East of Suez planned by the Wilson government, but delayed by LBJ. As Britain, under WIlson, refused to become engaged in Vietnam, LBJ insisted that Britain maintain its bases East of Suez until the end of the Sixties.

The reality is that Britain’s imperial power had begun to wane by the end of WWI but it took WWII to make it clear to a lot more people, and Suez to ram it into the brains of the few who hadn’t already grasped it by then.

France was in much the same position, but its defeat in WWII ended any remaining pretensions to imperial power. That didn’t stop France behaving post-war in places such as Vietnam as if it was still an imperial power, which in Vietnam was doubly ridiculous given the way the Vichy governent surrendered Indo-China to the Japanese after Germany defeated France. Dien Bien Phu in 1954 should have rammed it into the collective Gallic brain that it wasn’t an imperial power any more, but after losing in Vietnam it promptly embarked on another disaster in Algeria without learning anything much from Vietnam. Algeria was probably a much more corrosive issue in France then and for decades after than Vietnam was in France, and in some respects perhaps as much as Vietnam was in America during America’s involvement.

Britain made many mistakes, as do all nations, but it seemed to grasp and adapt to reality in its colonies and the realities of its post-war positon better than most colonial powers. And probably better than America in its various excursions into small wars, which is in marked contrast to MacArthur’s successful occupation of Japan which reflected an acute appreciation of the realities of the local culture and its people. The latter point is where I think Britain, through its long colonial experience, was better equipped than America to understand and work with very different cultures.

Yes, by the end of the WW2 an exhausted Britain, whose soldiers wanted no more than to go home, new that its empire days were finished. When Burma broke away, Britian didn’t have the manpower o do anything about it. India was Indendent, and Malaya, with its rubber, became the most profitable of the remaining colonies. As Britain and Europe found other sources of raw materials, there wasn’t much point in retaining other colonies such as in the West Indies. It became a matter of preparing colonies for independence. Britain was a large trading nation (and remains the world’s largest trading nation, per capita, today), and aimed at developing trade links with former colonies by way of the Commonwealth. Part of the preperation for independence, was to form federations of states which would become a part of the commonwealth and continue to trade with Britain. In South East Asia, the aim was to form the Malaysian Federation.

What was America’s biggest problem in fighting in Vietnam?

There’s a few to choose from, but I think one of them was advertising that it wouldn’t cross the DMZ while NV happily shoved everything it could into SV through and around the DMZ.

When comparing Malaya and Vietnam, one can not ignore the advantages Britain had over the French and US which were allowed by the physical geography. Malaya was a long peninsula. Its length was made up of forest covered razor-backed mountains. Its northern border ran along that of Thailand, which was arguably, sympathetic to the West. This assistEd the British in containing the bandits movements and restricting their ability to operate and supply outside of the jungle environs.

Vietnam had an artificial, demarkation line running laterally accross the country at the 19th parallel. To its(SOuth Vietnam) north was, of course North Vietnam, which bordered against Communist China and Laos, and to the east lay Cambodia. The huge length of the South Vietnamese border with Laos Cambodia, and the line of the Mekong River offered great oppotunities for clandestine infiltration of men and supplies, and, as RS has noted, the political restrictions of the DMZ straddling the 19th parallel were largely ignored by the North. Where the North Vietnamese did acknowledge the restrictions of the DMZ it was because the restriction was forced upon them.

Title:
Recent activities in North Vietnam : 12-18 August 1968

North Vietnam continued to expand and diversify the military and logistics capabilities throughout the country, especially in the areas free of the bombing. A major transshipment point has been confirmed just North of the 19th parallel. Bai Thuong airfield has been partially paved in recent weeks, improving its all-weather capabilities. The Thanh Hoa power plant is being repaired, the first sign of such activity South of the 20th parallel since the bombing halt

Source:© 2006 University of Saskatchewan Library

[i]"The instructor was yelling at us again ”your looking for CTs, don’t look at the bloody ground, if you gaze at your f…ing feet you won’t find the CTs and they will get you first. Now look up and stay alert.”

We were picking our way through the jungle. I was an untrained soldier in jungle warfare and was being indoctrinated into the green hell. The jungle training course was for several weeks and I will never forget the humidity, the stench of rotting vegetation, the deprivation of daylight by the greatness of the dark canopy above and its eerie feeling of being enveloped by the gloom"[/i]

One incident was humorous in reflection but not at the time. Our lead scout came charging back through the undergrowth running as fast as he could go shouting what sounded like “Bandits, Bandits.” We rushed off the track and laid down ready. What he was really shouting was “Hornets, Hornets”. These were the dangerous Slender Banded Hornet that makes its paper like nest hanging by a short stalk. These are more aggressive than other hornets found in the jungle and will attack anyone who approaches their nest. The sting is painful and multiple stings can be dangerous. Hornets attack moving targets, so without knowing it by lying down still we did the best thing. Our poor lead scout was badly stung and ended in sick bay. The other problem was supposed to be snakes but we saw few as most snakes prefer to glide away when approached by man. Later in my tour of duty as someone always interested in animals, I studied Malayan Natural History. Unwittingly I built a reputation as a snake authority, but that is another story.

Source: Major(Retd) Frank Clark

Hornet stings could render a man unconscious, which could be rather problematic when deep in the Ulu (one might as well have been on another planet). Usually, he was given codine, which seemed to be second only to beer (which was unavailable in the Ulu) as the ‘fix-all’ medicine.

Found this elsewhere, thought it interesting:

Maxie Maxwell has pointed me in the direction of an excellent article on the causes and effects of rotating ‘individuals’ of the American Forces through Vietnam during the 60s.
Witten by Mark DePu, in a nutshell the article deals with how and why the political decision was taken to rotate teeth arms soldiers for twelve month tours as individuals whilst platoon and company commanders were rotated for 6 months, rather than use the tried and tested method of unit moves!
It also deals with the effects individual rotation had on the leadership and cohesion of units making a difference between victory and defeat, and, at its worst, the breakdown of discipline and ‘fragging’ of officers.
Overall the authors conclusion appears to be that “the individual rotation policy was, in hindsight, one of the worst ideas of the war. At the time, however, military planners had few options.”
There are some lessons to be learned here when considering how stretched the British Army is at the moment.

To go straight to the article…

www.historynet.com/magazines/vietnam/4632961.html?showAll=y&c=y

And for you Khe Sahn types:
http://www.historynet.com/magazines/vietnam

I’ve referred in another thread(s) to this aspect (can’t recall which one(s)), which I think is quite significant.

The rotation periods could be shorter than 6 months.

I’ve come across quite a few references to junior US officers in Vietnam being sent by sympathetic superiors to active units to get some sort of qualifiction(s) or ? combat badges to help their careers. And references to experienced troops being resentful towards such postings of inexperienced officers.

I can’t recall the details but I have a feeling that just being assigned to and turning up at a combat unit had some minor significance for an officer’s record, while fairly short periods - one to three months? - acquired more significance.

It’s a little vague, now, but, occassionaly, I think there was a similar situation in N.I. where officers on postings away from their parent units, took a month’s leave so as to serve in N.I. with their parent unit and receive the General Service Medal. Fortunately, at the time the majority of the patrols were led by junior NCO’s and the said officers would be confined to Ops. Room duties, or would accompany patrols in the very early hours, when the opposition were (for the most part) tucked up in bed.

Malaya - A War or an Emergency?

It was a war but there was a curious reason why it was never called one. As the author John Gullick, an authority on Malaya and one-time member of the Malayan Civil Service, points out, “It was a war -though out of regard for the London insurance market, on which the Malayan economy relied for cover, no one ever used the word.” This misnomer continued for twelve years, for the simple reason that insurance rates covered losses of stocks and equipment through riot and civil commotion in an emergency, but not a civil war.

When hostilies commenced in Malaya,the British forces were outnumbered by the C.T.'s. Opposing the five-thousand battle-trained and experienced insurgent army (almost exactly the same number of troops available to Ho Chi-minh, at the beginning), were 10,233 police officers and men and eleven battalions of troops, three from the Malaya Regiment, six Ghurka, two British - the Seaforth Highlanders and the 1st King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.

C.T’s (Communist) Terrorists or Bandits?

At first the they were labelled ‘bandits’ - until the British discovered that this word had unfortunate connotations. ‘Bandits’ had been the identical term used by the Japanese and Chiang Kai-shek to describe Communists; since neither of these powers had been successful, the use of ‘bandits’ by the British put them on a similar level in the eyes of Malayan Chinese. The British, therefore changed ‘bandit’ to ‘Communist Terrorist’ or C.T.