New US Army Service Pistol?

Nickdfresh · December 31, 2006, 6:29pm

I was wondering, after reading in a another thread about the M9 (M92F Beretta) 9mm being phased out after 23-years of service, what the new replacement will be? I have a friend who owns the Springfield .45ACP. It’s an obvious high-capacity improvement over the venerable M1911 Colt .45 with about a 13-round magazine (I think), and I may purchase one myself someday. I was wondering if this is going to be the new pistol?

Nickdfresh · December 31, 2006, 6:31pm

I personally found the M9 adequate and very easy to shoot (I scored expert --mostly :mrgreen: ). But I’ve heard that the old timers missed the .45ACP round’s stopping power.

George_Eller · December 31, 2006, 8:21pm

Hi Nick,

I believe that I read about it in the Army-Times originally. I will have to dig through the issues to find the article. I will have to get back later on this as I will be out this evening.

PLT.SGT.BAKER · December 31, 2006, 9:06pm

It will be a shame for the M9 to phase out. Very good pistol, good accuracy, very less likely to jam. I like the M9.

George_Eller · December 31, 2006, 9:52pm

Ah, found it. Well, I’m heading out for the evening. Happy New Year everyone.

George_Eller · January 1, 2007, 4:50pm

U.S. Brings Back the .45
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060127.aspx

January 27, 2006:

After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs.

SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don’t hold your breath.

Why the .45 Matters
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060201.aspx

February 1, 2006:

Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models. It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (actually .357, or 9.07mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.

The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there’s a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at “stopping” someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet “knocking down” whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.

Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm’s pistol’s stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM “offensive” handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.

The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911.

George_Eller · January 1, 2007, 4:51pm

Reviving the .45
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060620.aspx

June 20, 2006:

The U.S. Department of Defense is looking for a new " Joint Combat Pistol" (JCP) to replace the current M9 9mm weapon. But there are already a number of semi-automatic pistols on the commercial market that arguably meet most, if not all, of the specifications. The M9, a 9mm Pistol with a 15-round magazine, was selected to replace the .45 caliber M1911 after a competition that took years (from the late 1970s until the Beretta 92FS was chosen in 1985). That choice has caused a lot of controversy. The first contest, run by the Air Force, was disputed by the Army, which ran four separate trials from 1981 to 1985, and involved off-the-shelf pistols from FN, Smith and Wesson, and SIG-Sauer. The M9 comes in at a unit cost of $263 a pistol (retail price is higher at $691). The current JCP program was slated to take a shorter period of time (responses to a requirement for 50,000 pistols - down from a requirement of 645,000 - were to be submitted by June 7 from a RFP dated August 10, 2005), and a decision will come after tests. But which commercial pistols might be considered?

Para-Ordnance of Canada has been making a wide range of pistols firing the .45 ACP round. These pistols have come in four sizes, from subcompacts to full-sized pistols, starting with the P14.45 in 1990 (along with a smaller pistol known as the P12.45). Many of the pistols in Para-Ordnance’s 2006 catalog come with 12 or 14-round magazines standard, and these pistols are largely within the size limits of the specifications of the Joint Combat Pistol. These pistols cost anywhere from $829 to $899 retail.

Another manufacturer, who already has provided a pistol firing the .45 ACP round, is Heckler and Koch. The Mk 23 SOCOM, with a 12-round magazine and the ability to carry a silencer, is about as off-the-shelf as one could get. This pistol was based on the Heckler and Koch USP45, which has been available for the civilian and law enforcement markets. The cost per pistol, though, is over $2400 for the Mk 23, and only about 7500 pistols were acquired after a five-year gestation from requirement (1991) to service (1996). The USP45 comes much cheaper, at a retail price of $827 – or about one-third the cost of the SOCOM model.

Glock also has a .45 ACP pistol, the Glock 21. Glock has widespread acceptance among the civilian and law-enforcement markets (including the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Drug Enforcement Administration). The Glock 21 has a 13-round magazine. The only negative for Glock in the Joint Combat Pistol competition is its lack of an external safety. That said, Glock pistols have proven to be very durable, which is a good thing for military service, and they only cost $700.

Springfield Armory also has a pair of .45 ACP pistols coming out. These two pistols each have 13-round magazines, the difference being in their barrels (one has a four-inch barrel, the other a five-inch barrel). Like the Glock, these pistols also lack external safeties. These pistols also come cheap ($559 for the four-inch barrel, $595 for the five-inch barrel).

If SOCOM (Special Operations Command), which is handling the selection of the Joint Combat Pistol, is looking for possibilities with little or no development time, one of these might be the basis of the military’s next pistol. – Harold C. Hutchison (haroldc.hutchison@gmail.com)

George_Eller · January 1, 2007, 4:52pm

Beretta Backers Beat Down the .45 Revival
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060924.aspx

September 24, 2006:

Earlier this year, the U.S. Department of Defense began a search for a new .45 caliber combat pistol. Now that search has been mysteriously called off. The Department of Defense has announced, without any explanation, that is no longer looking for a new combat pistol.

Last January, after two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense appeared to be getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm, as well as reliability problems with the Beretta. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta.

Back in January, SOCOM was given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs were to be evaluated, but all had to be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 was also to have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length was to be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense planned to buy 645,000 JCPs. But now, the troops are being told to keep their 9mm Berettas, and all the complaints they have about those weapons.

PLT.SGT.BAKER · January 1, 2007, 6:19pm

Wasn’t the XM8 project was cancelled on 2005?

VonWeyer · January 1, 2007, 6:34pm

An interesting read.

Nickdfresh · January 1, 2007, 7:59pm

Correct. The fighting in Iraq has precluded the adoption of a completely new design. I believe the M4 is also being fazed out in favor of a smaller FN assault rifle-carbine…

George_Eller · January 1, 2007, 8:31pm

Thanks VonWeyer.

Yes it was.

XM8 Put to Sleep
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200512101736.asp

by James Dunnigan

December 1, 2005

The XM8, the U.S. Army’s design for a new assault rifle and light machine-gun, has been cancelled. Actually, the project was put on hold last July. At the time, the reason was believed to be the ongoing debate over whether a new caliber (6.8mm was most often mentioned) should be adopted. While the XM8 used more modern engineering, and was lighter and more reliable, it was basically an improved M-16, just another 5.56mm assault rifle. Meanwhile, SOCOM adopted another new 5.56mm design (SCAR), while the U.S. Marine Corps decided to stay with the M-16 in the future. The XM8 may be revived, in another caliber. But for now, the army does not want to spend several billion bucks on a new assault rifle. Better to wait until the war in Iraq dies down, and radically new weapons, like the 25mm XM-25, hit the field, and pile up some combat experience. Basically, the army believes there are better alternatives than the XM8, but are not sure exactly what these alternatives are.

OICW-1 Canceled, Door Closes on XM-8 For Now
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/11/oicw1-canceled-door-closes-on-xm8-for-now/index.php

November 2, 2005

On July 22, 2005, DID reported that the U.S. Army had temporarily suspended the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the acquisition of a new family of small weapons - Objective Individual Combat Weapon Increment 1 (OICW-1). Increment 1 would have opened the door for the new H&K XM-8 weapon family, which was touted as the successor to the M16A4 assault rifle, M249 SAW light machine gun, and even the M9 pistol via a cut-down version. See DID’s full coverage and links.

Now Murdoc Online reports that OICW increment 1 has been formally canceled while the Pentagon reconsiders its plans in light of lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA may also wish to take into account Israeli lessons learned under related conditions during military operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which resulted in the new TAR-21 Tavor assault weapon family.

OICW increment 1 has been formally canceled
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/002960.html

November 1, 2005

A reader tipped me off to this amendment to the solicitation for the OICW Increment 1, which the XM8 and other assault rifle systems were competing for. The important bits:

The purpose of this Amendment is to CANCEL Solicitation W15QKN-05-R-0449, OICW Increment One.

This action has been taken in order for the Army to reevaluate its priorites for small caliber weapons, and to incorporate emerging requirements identified during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Government will also incorporate studies looking into current capability gaps during said reevaluation.

Download the entire amendment (Word doc) here: http://www.murdoconline.net/misc/OICW1cancelled.doc

This isn’t unexpected, given the backsliding over the past year or so after it appeared that the XM8 might be on fast track. If the “said reevaluation” includes a long hard look at the 5.56, this will probably all be worth it.

Looks like the Marines and SOCOM, who adopted the M16A4 and the FN-SCAR (respectively) despite initial interest in the XM8, made good calls.

MO will hopefully have more on this soon.