POLITICS OF POLAND

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#1

OK I know this is not the most interesting subject in the world but I find the start of WW2 (defined by me here as Germany’s attack on Poland) and what ultimately happened to Poland as quite fascinating.

Timeline -

29 Sept 1938 - The UK, Germany, France & Italy sign the Munich Pact effectively agreeing to accept Hitler’s take over of Czechoslovakia unopposed on the understanding that this was Hitler’s last territorial claim.

21 Aug 1939 - Non-aggression pact signed between Molotov & Ribbentrop. Seceret annex covers carving up of Poland between Russia and Germany.

1 Sept 1939 - Germans murder 12 prisoners from Buchenwald and dress them in Polish Army uniforms. Dump bodies near border. Generate radio traffic in Polish and announce to the world that the Poles have invaded Germany. Germany invades Poland as an act of “defence”.

3 Sept 1939 - UK and France declare war on Germany.

17 Sept 1939 - Soviet troops entered Western Poland. They stopped at Brest-Litovsk.

6 Oct 1939 - Organised Polish resistance ends.

1943-45 - Conferences held to discuss shape of Poland post WW2:

Churchill was party to treaties that would redraw post-WWII European and Asian boundaries. These were discussed as early as 1943. Proposals for European boundaries and settlements were officially agreed to by Harry S. Truman, Churchill, and Stalin at Potsdam. At the second Quebec Conference in 1944 he drafted and together with U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed a toned down version of the original Morgenthau Plan, where they pledged to convert Germany after her unconditional surrender “into a country primarily agricultural and pastoral in its character.” The settlement concerning the borders of Poland, i.e. the boundary between Poland and the Soviet Union and between Germany and Poland, was viewed as a betrayal in Poland during the post-war years, as it was established against the views of the Polish government in exile. Churchill was convinced that the only way to alleviate tensions between the two populations was the transfer of people, to match the national borders. As he expounded in the House of Commons in 1944, “Expulsion is the method which, insofar as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble… A clean sweep will be made. I am not alarmed by these transferences, which are more possible in modern conditions.” However the resulting expulsions of Germans was carried out by the Soviet Union in a way which resulted in much hardship and the death. Churchill opposed the effective annexation of Poland by the Soviet Union and wrote bitterly about it in his books, but he was unable to prevent it at the conferences. On October 9, 1944, he and Eden were in Moscow, and that night they met Stalin in the Kremlin, without the Americans. Bargaining went on throughout the night. Churchill wrote on a scrap of paper that the Stalin had a 90 percent “interest” in Romania, Britain a 90 percent “interest” in Greece, both Russia and Britain a 50 percent interest in Yugoslavia. When they got to Italy, Stalin ceded that country to Churchill. The crucial questions arose when the Ministers of Foreign Affairs discussed “percentages” in Eastern Europe. Molotov’s proposals were that Russia should have a 75 percent interest in Hungary, 75 percent in Bulgaria, and 60 percent in Yugoslavia. This was Stalin’s price for ceding Italy and Greece. Eden tried to haggle: Hungary 75/25, Bulgaria 80/20, but Yugoslavia 50/50. After lengthy bargaining they settled on an 80/20 division of interest between Russia and Britain in Bulgaria and Hungary, and a 50/50 division in Yugoslavia. U.S. Ambassador Harriman was informed only after the bargain was struck. This gentleman’s agreement was sealed with a handshake.
Source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Winston_Churchill

1945 - 1989 - Communist state.

Now the thing I find interesting is: (a) why did the UK go to war over Hitler’s invasion of Poland but then became allied with the USSR who also invaded Poland - the lesser of two evils presumably? (b) what was the world’s reaction to the USSr invasion of Poland - I can’t find anything about this? (c) when did the world become aware of the secret annex in the Molotov/Ribbentrop treaty and what was the reaction?

The Polish people felt that Churchill had “sold” them out to Communism and are bitter about the way they were abandoned to Stalin - a fate in some ways worse than the Germans.

German troops march through Warsaw Sept 1939 -

Molotov signs the treaty, Ribbentrop behind him -

#2

This has always puzzled me. Germany invades Poland so we declare war on Germany. The USSR then invades Poland. Why did we not then declare war on the USSR.

If Germany and the USSR were allied then legally we were obligated to do so. Obviously it might seem pretty stupid to declare war on the USSR when we had our hands more than full with Germay but I seem to think we nearly decalred war on the Russians when they invaded Finland. It was only because Sweeden refused to play ball that we did not. I don’t believe we were ever considering sending troops to Finland, merely shiping them arms (through Norway and Sweeden).

#3

CANARIS:

War and diplomacy make strange bedfellows and create intricate twists and turns – thus creating a lot of confusion.

Addressing your specific confusion – you must remember that the United States wasn’t plunged into World War Two until December of 1941.

It was two years earlier – 1939 – that Germany and the USSR invaded Poland, followed shortly thereafter by England and France entering the fracus. At that time the United States looked upon the scrap in Europe as a European thing. The U.S. govermnet was neutral and its population predominantly isolationist. As a result the U.S. felt no obligation, and had no reason, to declare war on either Germany or the USSR.

In 1939, when Germany and the USSR invaded Poland, England and France were friends of the U.S. – thus the USSR became the “bad guys”. The U.S. aided her friends in making war against the bad guys – Germany and the USSR.

Then, in June of 1941 Germany invaded the USSR – automatically placing the latter on the side of our good friends England and France. And now the USSR numbered among the “good guys” (So to speak!)

Finally, as to a subsequent U.S. declaration of war on Germany – most people aren’t aware or don’t remember that the United States did not declare war on Gemany. The Tripartite Pact of 1940 signed by Germany, Japan and Italy specified that, if any one of the three was attacked the other two would come to their aid by declaring war on the attacker.

On December 7, 1941 Japan attacked the U.S. at Pearl Harbor. Three days later (Dec. 11), in compliance with the Tripartite Pact GERMANY DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES. At this point the USSR became an ally of the United States who, in turn, started providing aid to them in their war against their “old friend” Germany.

And then the Cold War … Complicated stuff !!!

#4

Off Topic question…In the German marching photo does anyone know why the 2nd solider from the left(not counting the sargent/guy giving marching orders) isnt carring a weapon? Everyone in the that column is not carrying so im sure it is on purpose.

#5

Arhob1,

I got something interesting to add to the timeline:
12 Sept. 1939 - Great Britain and France secretly decided not to help Poland by sending any military materials nor starting any serious military action against Germany.
That decision was made in Abbeville just in 9 days after the declaration of war. Personally, I understand the reasons of that decision. It becames harder when somebody recalls the fact, that British and French had promised help to Polish goverment. Both our Allies were fully aware of Polish Army’s abilities of defence. They knew that the polish military doctrine is based on stopping the enemy, until the Allies arrive or react.
Even that lack of any serious raction of Allies may be accepted.
But as a Pole I can’t understand one thing.
Why British and French after the meeting in Abbeville had not informed Poles about their decision? Why they let them still belive that help is on its way?

#6

VCS-WW2, I am British so I am asking why Britain did not declare war on The USSR in 1939. I should have made that clear.

#7

Well declaring war on the USSR may push them even more into the German side, for example they can send troops to fight alone with the Germans, ships weapons for them etc.

#8

Canaris, you’re right, technically British Guarantees for Poland should cause automatic declaration of war with USSR.
However, soviets entered Polish territory without proper declaration of war too. Poland did not declared war with USSR either. Marshal Smigly issued order stating “…do not fight with soviets”.
According to international law official declaration of war is not neccesary - what counts is an “act of war” - crossing of the borders with armed forces.

Technically Great Britain was in a state of war with USSR when soviets invaded Finland. Than late 1939, British and French governments started to plan sending troops to help Finland.
One of the units seriously preparing to fight Winter War was Polish Independent Mountain Brigade - (finally landed in Norway and fought to capture Narwik from Germans).
Fortunately for todays world, French readiness to organise, put together and send anything bigger than case of wine, was equal to zero and Winter War finished before any units were able to go.
Thanks to that, when Germans invaded USSR, 22 of June 41, Winston Churchill could offer help without any problems.

Cheers,

Lancer44

#9

Gen. Sandworm said:

Off Topic question…In the German marching photo does anyone know why the 2nd solider from the left(not counting the sargent/guy giving marching orders) isnt carring a weapon? Everyone in the that column is not carrying so im sure it is on purpose.

I puzzled over this. In fact the second man in IS carrying a weapon. Look at the second man in on the 3rd row. You’ll see he is carrying an MG of some sort. Weight of this weapon dictates it is carried slung on shoulder.

Another question though … The insignia on these helmets looks like red/white/blue stripes which I thought was only worn by German troops in France (in which case this is not a picture of troops marching in Poland). Is this insignia red/white/blue and if so what does it represent?

#10

Maybe in that column they are all carrying the MG34, good catch.

#11

Arhob1,
the insignia on the helmets are black/white/red and they are related to the national colors of Germany (National Tri-color shield), not France.

http://www.german-helmets.com/NATIONAL%20Decal%20Types.htm

#12

Well declaring war on the USSR may push them even more into the German side, for example they can send troops to fight alone with the Germans, ships weapons for them etc.[/quote]

Ingsoc, just naive peoples can think that USSR could be satellite of Nazi German, because soviet govement was jewish . Even georgian Stalin was married on jewish woman. Communism and fashism was mortal enemies, therefore war between SU and Germany was inevitable, it was matter of time.
This point, i think, explain Britain and France line of conduct before and during Germany’s attack on Poland. It was preferably turn the german aggression to the East. But “way to the East” lied over Poland. In 1939 both Britain and France didn’t help poles, they just didn’t want to create barriers for germans troops to the USSR.

What’s it changed? May be poles troops capitulated more quickly or civil victims was less ? I am not sure. Certainly poles was deceived, but you better ask , Kovalski, why polish leaders made fraud possible.

#13

I just thought that every row was a squad. There are 13 men in that row, 1 man larger than a normal squad. Then they just put the machine gunner in the 2nd column. Judging by the barrel it’s definatly MG34. Plus with no MP40’s I think this shot was taken in Poland in '39.

P.S. Chevan that movie clip in your signature. Where is it from?

#14

Hi Chevan,
I don’t think it had anything to do with Jewish members of soviet government nor Jewish wives of Russian members…
Soviet Russia was very valuable partner for Germany starting from late 1939 up to the last days before June 1941.
Oil, wheat, steel - you name it, you can be sure Stalin sold it to Hitler.
They even co-operated in building warships.
I can risk thesis that Germany conquered France and Western Europe thanks to Stalin.

And your answer to Kovalski - “why polish leaders made fraud possible.” -
is naive. Fraud was possible because France and GB knew about secret protocol of Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact.
They knew that soviet army will attack Poland, hence they decided to sacrifice Poland.

Lancer44

#15

Hi Outerheaven,

Chevan missed your question than I will answer. Clip in his signature is from soviet movie “Liberation” (Osvobozdienie), director J. Ozierov.
Made in 70’s. 4 parts, I think - 2 or 2.5 hours each.

Basically nearly every scene in it is a lie and soviet political correctness, but batalistic scenes are awesome… Perhaps not perfect, like Kursk battle where you can see hundreds of T-55’s smashing Panthers and Tigers, but absolutely amazing - real Il-2’s Shturmoviks, scores of T-34, excellent looking replicas of Tigers, Panthers and Pz IVs.

I would like to see it again.
Have to ask Chevan if there is any chance of buying it on DVD.

Cheers,

Lancer44

#16

That’s disappointing to hear that there are so many errors in the film. Well I never let politics get in the way of a good war movie!:smiley: