Question regarding the psychology of the German citizens

World War II General WWII Discussion
#1

I’ve been trying to find some resources to answer questions like this one, but haven’t been able to turn up much. If someone could just point me in the right direction or give me a starting point, that’d be a great help. Here are my thoughts:

Prior to the outbreak of WWII, there must have been a minority of German citizens who could foresee the type of terrible things coming down the line by examining history, current political trends and the molded mentality of the public. Given this assumption, these people, however few they may have been, must have tried in vain to warn their fellow countrymen in an attempt to curtail the momentum being built by the establishment. I want to know how their words were received by the mass of citizens. I want to know if there was a significant number of Germans who fled Germany prior to any obvious oppressions; if there were people who fled because they could tell what was inevitably going to ensue.

Also, for those who couldn’t see what was going to happen and ended up staying or even “patriotically” supporting their nation, did they exhibit a degree of denial when considering what might be occurring in their country? And after the war, how did the unknowing German people react to the news of horrific concentration camps?

So, I guess I’m looking for information on what the German people were thinking before, during and after WWII. On any level, did they realize what was happening? Were they ever exposed to the possibility of what was happening only to disregard such ideas? I know there were comprehensive programs to mold their thoughts, but surely not everyone was fooled. What was it like to be one of the independent minds? What was it like for those who recognized that the public was being fed a constant stream of propaganda from nearly every avenue of information?

I’m hoping that somewhere out there on the web someone has written extensively on this subject… maybe even interviewed a few German citizens who lived it.

Thanks.

#2

I’m only going to address your first question - as I think this is a valid, interesting, but potentially inflammatory thread.

Without researching, there were numbers of the German “intelligentsia” and intellectual elites (beyond those of the obvious German-Jewish populations) that fled Germany or had previously left Germany, but formally spurned the fatherland after the Nazi rise to power…

Some examples off the top of my head would be the actress Marlene Dietrich (who was a one-woman USO for American servicemen if you know what I mean :slight_smile: ) and even Hitler’s nephew (I think?) who denounced uncle Adolph and was even commissioned into the US Navy. The Hitler family members that emigrated to the United States have long since changed their last names and remain very secretive of their past - understandably…

But there were thousands of emigres to North America and Western Europe…

#3

Oddly enough, a VERY good portrayal of the German civilian mentality is to be found in various of the characters in Richard Harris’s “Fatherland” novel.
In particular, I’m thinking of the woman who tells the visiting reporter:“You still have your jews in Amerika, we got rid of ours.” The character goes on to admit many others were also killed, but that the general population did not usually acknowledge the fact, as doing so was frowned upon.

William Shirer’s “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” gives a reasonable overview though I find it scant on actual day-to-day detail as you seem to be seeking.

From My reading over many years, I’d say Harris in particular has excellently highlighted the mental “schism” that the German civil population found itself in during the era you are researching.

I shall not expand on that, anyone familiar with the dynamics of mass-populace psychology will know exactly what I’ve said.

An almost exact parallel “schism” was observed in the US population during the Vietnam War, and that same “schism” attitude was observable among European nationals present as Mao Tse Tung swept to power in China in 1949. This last detail remarked to me by a European who was witness to some of the events of China in 1949.

–I do give one opinion of My own here: Germany, nearly 70 Years on, should be ready to ease down a little on the “national guilt” aspect. Granted, the Holocaust events should not be trivialised: nor should they be forever highlighted.
It is a mistake to keep holding such events in the forefront of human consciousness: doing so simply teaches the next lot to try the same things how to do them better.

That is teaching an error humanity can afford to NOT make.

World War Two cost humanity as a Race the vast majority of its’ best and brightest minds of the relevant generations, world-wide. The Human Race cannot in truth afford another such cost.–

Regards, Uyraell.

#4

There is a good book called “Under the Bombs The German Home Front 1942–1945,” by Earl Ray Beck.

It has alot on that.

A very good read I can assure you.

Deaf

#5

This question assumes that there was some sort of static situation prior to WWII, but in fact it was an evolving situation over a number of years which resulted in something which few, perhaps none, could have foreseen prior to Hitler’s election to power.

Why would anyone predict the Holocaust and Einsatzgruppen in the East in, say, 1931, 1933, 1937 or even 1939?

There was nothing in German history, pre or post about 1870, or pre-war political trends which would predict such events. Obviously the Nazis increasingly oppressed their opponents and the Jews as they cemented their grip on power which led to people leaving Germany, and Austria after Anschluss, but the same could be said of people who have fled many oppressive regimes over the centuries right up to today.

As for the moulded mentality of the public, if everyone was moulded mentally then there would have been no room for a dissident minority but if there was a dissident element, minor or not, then it was only elements of the population which were moulded.

Which assumes that they were moulded by the Nazis as distinct from the Nazis reflecting their desires. I’d suggest that much moulding was external rather than internal and was of people who weren’t pro-Nazi but who learnt that it was safer to conform than to object or resist.

About two thirds of German voters did not vote for Hitler and the Nazis when they came to power. I’d be surprised if a majority, or even a substantial minority, of the third which voted for the Nazis had any idea where that election would lead, especially as Hitler’s post-election seizure power by non-electoral means wasn’t predictable.

#6

After Hitler’s unfortunate election which was helped by a low voter turnout things took an ugly turn.

The Reichstag was burned down by the evil Communists which enabled Adolph and his gang to declare a national emergency and delare him dictator for life.

Suspension of civil rights was an initial move.
It was downhill from there.
German society was a paternalist culture.
It centered on a strong father figure who had all say in everything.
It is not completely incorrec to suggest they took naturally to the coming events.
The police state developed and its tactics ensured most any opposition would be smashed immediately.

We got some things cooking here in USA that need some paying attention to related to this.
Even today in some of our schools kids are encouragedto “denounce” their parents.

#7

Does one assume there was no anti-Semitism in Germany before the rise of the Nazis?

Certainly Hitler and his cronies gained great advantage out of the ‘stab in the back mentality and the undermining of the Ayran race by the Jews’, but that could only take hold if such ‘anti’ attitudes were already in place.

digger

#8

The Reichstag was burned by “evil communists?” Was it really? Are you sure?

Um, in which schools are kids “denouncing their parents?”

#9

Before the third Reich, Anti-Semitism in Germany was no larger than anywhere else in Europe - or partially even the US. It is not until after WW2 that discriminating Jews was seen as tasteless and disgusting by the majority of people, and even then it was out of a Global bad conscience for what happened under Hitler.

Consider this: Many German-Jewish emigrants were not let into the UK, Canada or the US. That’s not because the war was already raging, it was because the nations didn’t want that many Jews.

Before 1945, Europe in general was a very unfriendly place for Jews, though it was Germany that took it too far, and finally made people realize that the hole Jew-hating thing is pretty idiotic.

Ironically enough, Germany was one of the nations more tolerant towards Jews up until the mid-20th century, which is part of the reason many Jews did not leave when Hitler got to power - they didn’t think the Germans would suddenly change their attitude so dramatically.

Certainly Hitler and his cronies gained great advantage out of the ‘stab in the back mentality and the undermining of the Ayran race by the Jews’, but that could only take hold if such ‘anti’ attitudes were already in place.

Of course they were already in place. But only in the ways I described above. It was not overly unlike the way some Americans think of Muslims today.

BTW, Uyraell, are you sure ‘Fatherland’ was by Michael Crichton, and not Robert Harris?

#10

My Apologies, Schuultz: you are correct.

Extracts bullet from other foot
Seems to be my week for errors. :oops: :mrgreen:

However, my Thanks for pointing out my error, Schuultz my friend.:smiley:

Warm and Kind Regards, Uyraell.

#11

I feel that an unending diet of propaganda would have a great effect on any country that was subjected to it.We see it today when people are more intrested in celebrity than world affairs.The nazis would have loved British tabloids.

#12

These are very difficult questions. I only can try to answer them as i wasn´t born at this time. But at least i can tell you what my grandma told me, who had to go through this time.

After the first wold war, germany suffered from the consequences of this war. (I´m saying this without any judging if it was right they suffered or not) Just take it as a fact. Germany had lost the first world war and life was difficult for them.
They were committed to assign large parts of their country, which meant a big loss of economic power to them. And it was not only a loss of income, it brought them into trouble to produce enough food.
According to the treaty of versailles, germans also had to pay pretty high reparations to the victors of the first world war. And they were forced to observe many restrictions like they weren´t allowed to have or build tanks or dreadnoughts and so on.
They had over 5,6 millions of unemployed people in germany in 1933. This was a rate of 30%, which is really high.
You perhaps can imagine, people weren´t happy with all these circumstances and life wasn´t easy for them.

And now there was Hitler, who had promised them a better life. He promised to build up more than enough jobs for everyone (for sure he didn´t told them he would mainly build up these jobs through a war). It was the early years of the 30´s and nobody (except Hitler and his crew) even thought of a war. So people believed in his words. And he did what he promised them, so there was no occasion for them to mistrust him.

From 1930 to 1939 the german folks were flooded by all these disgusting propaganda against jewish people. Note i´m not trying to find excuses for them, i´m only trying to explain why they believed it and why they didn´t had done something to stop it.
The jewish people at this time were pretty unliked by many countries, not only by the germans. That´s why Hitlers propaganda doesn´t sound that strange to them. And he never told the public that he was going to kill all jews, he told them he would like to emigrate them. There´s a big difference between killing and emigration. And yes german folks didn´t say no to emigrate the jews.

My grandma was 29 years old as the second war began. She lived in Essen (a big industrial city in germany, which was bombed out later) and worked as a saleslady in a bakery. The life she lived was the normal life of a woman in germany. She was not too much interested in politics. You may call her naiv or ignorant, but out of her point of view it was just usual.
At this time she was affianced with my grandpa, who worked as a office administrator. He also wasn´t too much interested in politics. They had planed to get married soon, build a house and become children.
Before they had the chance to put their plans into action, the second world war begun. My grandpa was forced to become a soldier and had to fight for germany. He later told me it was the worst time of his life and he suffered many years of it. He wasn´t a nazi, he was just a little soldier who fought for his country. Neither my grandma was a nazi. Yes both were members of the nsdap, but everyone was a member. There was no free choice. Nobody had asked you if you would like to be a member or not. You have had to be a member of nsdap, otherwise you would be brought to a concentration camp.

My grandma told me, she never knew about concentration camps during the war. First time she heard such a thing had exist was after the war. And yes she was shocked, of course! But she didn´t had much time to think about it short after the end of the war. Germany was destroyed and my grandma had hard times to survive with her two little kids. My grandpa wasn´t at home after the war. He was caught up by the russians and they brought him to a russian prisoner of war camp. The russians hold him in prison for 6 long years. You can say he was in this war from 1939 until 1951. The russians treated him bad, very bad. He was a broken man when he finally came home. He was ill, malnourished, had the badest nightmares you could imagine and became a drinker. He just can´t take what had happend without drinking. 40 years later he still had these nightmares and refused to speak about the war.

Please excuse my bad english. I know my grammar is awful, but i tried my best.

#13

Thanks for your very well thought out (if somewhat unnecessarily thorough) first post, Tara.

Would you mind elaborating on your Grandpa’s time in the Wehrmacht? We always appreciate the personal stories of time witnesses, and the more detail you can provide, the better.
I’d recommend posting his story in a new thread in the German Military forum, if you are willing to spend the time and effort.

#14

Interesting indeed, however I can’t agree with the forced NSDAP membership for everyone.

#15

Yeah, I thought that was kind of iffy. But, depending on socio-economic position and employment, there was a certain amount of pressure on people to join.

Actually, his membership in the NSDAP makes me wonder whether he was Wehrmacht or SS. Must’ve been SS, Wehrmacht wasn’t allowed to be a member of a political party, or am I wrong about that?

#16

There is a difference between duress and being induced by circumstance, such as wanting to advance in employment, to join the Party.

There may also be a difference between the reasons which obtained at the time of joining the Party when it was in the ascendant and one’s post-war presentation of the reasons for joining a party then held in contempt.

#17

Right, a potential NSDAP membership was temporarily suspended as long as a person served in the Wehrmacht.

#18

Correct me if I’m in error, my friend, but I was under the impression there had been a Fuhrer-edict in early 1942 or 1943 overturning the pre-war ban on membership in a political party for Wehrmacht personel.

I seem to recall having read this in approx 1985, in, of all things, a history commentary by A.J.P. Taylor, a noted Historian.

Regards, Uyraell.

#19

Good to see you back, me old Kiwi mate.

We missed your erudite contributions (Although I think I pretty much managed to hold the Australasian fort in your absence, although I confess that I may have lapsed into one or two sheepshagger references. :wink: :smiley: ).

#20

Thank You, RS me old Aussie mate :slight_smile:
My regrettable absence is accounted for by a deaded modem, and near dead opsys on comp, and lack of finances to remedy those.
To use a well-known army term, the situation was a four-month embuggerance of large proportions.

Kind, Warm Regards and Blessed Be, RS,
Uyraell.