Rodman bullpup SAW

Hoping MoS might help here.

Does anyone know of the Rodman bullpup SAW, chambered for the 6mm XM732 cartridge.

I can’t even find a picture of the weapon. It was evaluated by the US Army Material Command around the mid '60s. It intrigues me because about the same time the Brits were evaluating the EM-2. A bull pup rifle also chambered for 6mm.

The EM-2 was binned in favour of the FN FAL or SLR as it was dubbed for the British because the yanks managed to convince Nato that 7.62mm was the best round for a NATO standard calibre. A calibre they almost immediatly dropped in favour of the 5.56mm round, which I think is now NATO standard too.

It’s interesting what your were saying about the yanks dropping the 7.62mm round immediately after supporting it for NATO as I recently covered this in my ‘How Weapons Work’ module for my degree. The reason why the Americans proposed the 7.62mm was that the army believed it would manage to convince the secetary of defence not to adopt the M-16. The army preferred the M-14 as it adhered to more traditional marksmanship principles, i.e. long barrel, big calibre allowing heavy fire over long distances. However, they lost the argument when the air force ganged up on them and had to switch to 5.56mm, but not before insisting on not adopting Armalite’s superior cartridge opting for the inferior ball powder instead.

The Hair-Force had a say in what was essentially a ground forces combat weapon?! :smiley:

Any more info S-S?

The weapon may have been tested by the L Company of 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines commanded by a Capt. Joseph Gibbs, in Vietnam.

The airforce has large numbers of blokes used for protecting airfields (don’t know what the American version of the RAF Regt is). They wanted something lightweight and able to put down lots of rounds. Curtis LeMay managed to knobble the Defence Secetary and convince him of the merits of the M-16.

I have not heard of this Rodman weapon – it does not appear in any of my books.

The EM2 tests, by the way, were carried out in the 1950s, not the 1960s.

Student scaley – 7.62 mm was adopted long before the AR 15 appeared on the scene – don’t forget that the forerunner of the AR 15 was the AR 10, which was chambered for 7.62.

Hatcher, page 489:

An early contender for the honour of NATO adoption was a cartridge of .280 inch calibre proposed in 1947 by a “small arms ideal calibre panel” which had been convened in Great Britain in 1945. This small light cartridge had a 140 grain bullets with a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps. The British offered it to the United States, but our authorities decided that it did not have as much power as was desirable for our service cartridge, and declined to adopt it.

In refusing to go along with the British in adopting the .280 cartridge, our authorities were thinking not simply of a cartridge for an infantry rifle, but rather of a cartridge to be used in unarmed taking the place of all shoulder weapons – rifle, Carbine, submachine gun and automatic rifle – and also to be used in all rifle calibre machine guns as well. In other words, from the thinking of our authorities on the subject, there was beginning to emerge abroad new concept of an entirely new weapon system for the armed services, which was finally embodied in an announcement by the secretary of the army on May 1, 1957…

Our officials admitted that the uses of the rifle in cases where only the Carbine or submachine gun would now be employed, the light and comparatively low powered British .280 cartridge with its 140 grain bullet at 2300 fps muzzle velocity would be adequate, and would even be advantageous; but for the rifle proper and for the substitute BAR and the machine gun they considered that it would be entirely inadequate. But it was considered that our T65 cartridge would be adequate for machine gun use and not too burdensome for the lighter duties mentioned above.
The official US view is further indicated in the following quotation from an official statement released in 1951:

“the army is firmly opposed to the adoption of any less effective smaller calibre cartridge for using either its present rifle or in the new weapons being developed. Any new rifle cartridge must have winding power, penetration performance, and ballistics at least equal to that in use today [i.e. .30M2]. Battle experience has proven beyond question the effectiveness of the present rifle and ammunition, and there have been no changes in combat tactics that would justify a reduction of rifle calibre and power.”

NATO agreed on the adoption of this cartridge in February, 1954 – significantly before even the Armalite AR 10 had been thought of! Judging from what Hatcher writes, the US completely missed the point of the .280 cartridge! What is especially galling is that they then went on and adopted a significantly less powerful cartridge later…

The idea of the .280 cartridge was that it was to be used in the assault rifle and light machine gun, and in nothing heavier. But, having been in a situation where there were so many types of ammunition even at squad level, and “one size fits all” for all weapons must have seemed extremely attractive, even though it was far too heavy and high-powered for most of the roles which it replaced.

ManofStoat wrote:

I have not heard of this Rodman weapon – it does not appear in any of my books.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I take it you mean the Rodman XM235 SAW
There appears to be little information available.

This from The Gunzone:

March 1972
“A design team at the Rodman Laboratory develops their own candidate, the XM235.
the goal IS to procure A Weapon that weighs No more than 20lbs when loaded”

Tell me this why do we have rules (NATO) on how you can and cant kill people in combat ??

Gutowski wrote:

Tell me this why do we have rules (NATO) on how you can and cant kill people in combat ??

Could you be a bit more specific there?

Do you mean the Geneva and Hague conventions?

Rules of Engagement?

or

NATO standards?

USAF General Curtis LeMay, the commander of SAC and borderline psychotic that was the inspiration for the renegade general that hated fluoride in “Dr. Strangelove,” once fired the weapon at watermelons during a Fourth of July barbecue. He was impressed by the combination of firepower, compactness, and stopping power. So he ordered a bunch almost on site for the Security Police to guard aircraft with.

But the USAF didn’t “gang up” on the US Army. The AR-15/M-16 had it’s proponents in the US Army as well, and Def. Sec. McNamara loved it. Some feared the firepower of the Soviet AK-47 could tip the balance in firefights. But there was large contingent that adhered to the “one-shot, one-kill” dogma and hated the M-16, and Stoner, to the extent that they tried to sabotage cold weather tests in Alaska in favor of the M-14. But initial use of the M-14 (essentially an updated M-1 Garand) in Vietnam led to some dissatisfaction with it, opening the door for the M-16. It’s reliability problems due to the powder, and the fact that many US servicemen were told they didn’t have to clean it not withstanding, it’s overall performance in the field was the deciding factor.

The airforce has large numbers of blokes used for protecting airfields (don’t know what the American version of the RAF Regt is)…[/quote]

I think they’re called “Ground Security Combat Police.” I know they’re trained by US Army Rangers in small unit infantry tactics…

Edit Nope, I guess they’re just called the “Security Police.”*

The USAF also has an elite special operations unit called the “Pararescue” which has undertaken counterterrorist missions, as well as long range search and rescue functions in both civil and military operations for downed pilots…

They wanted something lightweight and able to put down lots of rounds. Curtis LeMay managed to knobble the Defence Secetary and convince him of the merits of the M-16.

I didn’t see this before my previous post… LeMay loved the weapon, but there was a key US Army general that also loved the weapon, and feared that US troops could be at a severe firepower disadvantage while firing semi-automatic M-14s against AKs in firefights… He also liked the fact that infantrymen could carry nearly twice the ammunition load for the 5.56mm rifle than they could for the M-14…

Whenever I read anything about the trials led to the adoption of the M14, it is quite clear that the trials were rigged from the start. Essentially, by reading between the lines, the following things are clear:

– the end result of the trial, come hell or high water, was to be the adoption of an up-rated M1 Garand.
– the calibre was to be ballistically comparable to .30 M2.
– foreign weapons were to be looked on cynically.

When the FAL performed comparably to what was to become the M14, they made excuses to adopt the M14 such as “retooling will be simpler” (it wasn’t, almost none of the tooling was compatible with M1 production), “it is more suited to US production and training methods” (it is certainly more suited to pre-1940 production methods, but that is really no excuse – and retraining would have to occur anyway, and the FAL is a far simpler weapon from a user’s perspective)

Just to illustrate, The FAL strips in about 11 seconds, the M14 takes about 45. The AR-10, another contender, field-strips even faster.

I’ve read a little about this subject as well, and yes, there is an interesting History Channel documentary on the the M-16 (“Tales of the Gun”)… A lot of it had to do with keeping Springfield Armory afloat (even though they later discovered that they could make weapons under license, like the M-16, and stay in business alright). Another interesting tidbit is that Eugene Stoner was threatened, in at least one case physically, by various reactionary US Army generals… The trials were being held in Alaska at the cold weather Fort up there, I can’t recall it’s name. But Stoner was told that the M-16 was failing miserably in the cold during firings. He decided to take a trip to see the problems first hand, and he claimed that the rifles had had their sights removed. And that the weapons were not cleaned properly. He complained, and nearly got into fisticuffs with the the program manager, I think that McNamara got involved after that… To paraphrase the M-16’s detractors in the military, the main idea was “you’re going to get US troops killed with this plastic little rifle.” Of course, US servicemen were probably killed in the early stages of the Vietnamese War when in fire-fights with NVA carrying AKs… The M-14 was prone to corrosion in the humidity of South Vietnam I guess.

In any case, the irony is: the US Army has finally adopted the AR-10 over the M-14 (as an intermediate sniper rifle to counter the semi-automatic Dragunov in Iraq & Afghanistan to supplement M-16A2s/M-4s). The US Marines are using a rebuilt M-14/M-21 I think…